PGA Tour: The Players: 17 Holes and an Island: Notes from the Ballwasher

1).Well done Rickie Fowler; an adjustment in your putting grip has transformed your season. A T10 in New Orleans should have served as a warning that the change was working. Normally your superb driving and iron play would have been rewarded with, perhaps, a top ten at Quail Hollow, but you brought your short game as well and congratulations on your first win.
Are you now ready to step it up and truly become a rival to Rory McIlroy (a big head-to-head win must be a boost?), or are you destined to being a Jason Day for a couple of years? Lots of high finishes, no visits to the winners enclosure. As a partisan Englishman, I'd say a young American who can contend week in, week out, would elevate the PGA Tour in a way that wave after wave of bright young things have failed to do.
1a).Fowler's reward is tee-time with Tiger (and Mahan) on Thursday - Rory is with Phil and Stricker.

2).A word about DA Points. I've always liked Points' engagement with, and appreciation of, the galleries and even in the bitter disappointment of Sunday's defeat he found time to applaud the crowd surrounding #18. Driving for show (almost as good as Fowler and led the field in greens hit) was let down by the putting for dough department, 65th in the Tour's "strokes gained - putting" stat; don't think he made anything longer than about eight feet on the weekend until his par putt in the play-off.
And tragic that his only bogey for forty holes was on the 72nd.

3).Quail Hollow is apparently destined for a re-do of some of its greens in preparation for the 2017 PGA. And a redesign of the very funky (and not in a good way) short par-4 eighth hole. Phil has long been a critic of the QH greens but this is some of what he had to say Sunday about the overall Course design:
"Tee to green it's a wonderful challenge. It's just the way the holes are shaped, they're beautifully done. I think the bunkering here is some of the best I've ever seen too. It's not over-bunkered. It's not bunkers everywhere you look, it's really well done here."

4).Quail Hollow is a different challenge than this week's examination at TPC Sawgrass. I see Rory McIlroy is replacing his 5-wood with a 2-iron in an effort to hit more fairways, not to mention the right part of the fairway. Seems to me that neutralises his power, not necessarily his biggest asset, but certainly not one to be dispensed with lightly.

5).Look for golfers who fare well on Pete Dye courses to have an edge this week. Els has been vocal in his support for Dye's TPC, which led one to imagine some symmetry remembering his last two wins. They were achieved at Doral (a Dick Wilson course), week off, then Bay Hill (another Wilson design). Obviously Els played well in losing that play-off to Dufner at New Orleans - then a week off. Who knows, but I'm not suggesting he should lose another play-off!

6).England's Brian Davis crossed the $10M mark in official Tour earnings with his 9th place finish last weekend. Davis has had some success at the TPC, but also missed three cuts. Nevertheless, it's his time of year - 9 of his 19 Tour top tens, and a disproportionate amount of his loot, has been earned in April and May and it wouldn't be a surprise to see him have another good tournament. Congratulations to Brian for a fine career, almost invariably under the radar!

7).Back to TPC Sawgrass. I really enjoy watching "The Players" on the box, a terrific mix of holes with one of the best quartet of par-5's anywhere. But I just can't accept that the 17th hole, as fickle as it is and beyond the meaning of risk/reward, fits anywhere on the course in general, and as the 17th hole in particular. Of course, as Woods has said in the past, if it was on the front nine no-one would notice it. And it certainly shouldn't be the opening play-off hole.
If the hole is not blown up, I'd like to see a 3-hole aggregate play-off, the par-5 16th, the fart-at-a-wedding 17th and the always challenging 18th.

8).Logic would suggest Luke Donald should have a "Players" win in his career, and many of the Europeans have enjoyed good tournaments here.
But the same cannot be said about young Americans; apart from Woods, whose dislike of the course seems to grow year on year, there's no American on Tour under the age of 39 (the soon-to-be-forty Justin Leonard) who has won or finished runner up here. Blimey, even the English at The Open have a better record than that. Just.

9).All our yesterdays, Part 1: Loved watching the golfing greats' 3-man scramble from the Houston Champions Tour event last Saturday, the Big Three of Arnie, Jack and Gary Player "winning" from two teams from Trevino, Barber, Graham, January, Stockton and Littler.

10).All our yesterdays, Part 2: Hall of Fame induction ceremonies last night for Mickelson, Lyle, Alliss, Hollis Stacy and Dan Jenkins (arguably, but not to him, the best American golf writer, good mate of Hogan) offered a reminder of just how good a golfer - though clearly not public speaker - Sandy Lyle was.
Renton Laidlaw did the induction presentation honours for Sandy and reminded all of Seve's tribute when asked who he thought was the most talented European golfer:
"If we all play our best, Sandy wins every time."
Which made one think about John Jacobs' opinion about Ian Woosnam that, "De Vicenzo and Woosnam" were "the two most correct swingers I've ever seen."
It doesn't necessarily justify an annual Masters tee-time, but worth remembering just what talent these two close childhood neighbours brought to the sport.

Should it be possible for someone to undo their hall of fame status. Sandy Lyle ought to be up in front of the beak for making a mockery of the game when he ought to be at home with his pipe and slippers. It's like Stanley Matthews turning out as a sub in the FA Cup.

kwinigolfer wrote:...the fart-at-a-wedding 17th...

A good description that. Awful hole except as a ghoulish watch for the galleries.

Insightful as ever Kwini 5*

Personally quite like the 17th its a bit of fun but shouldnt be as playoff hole

As Geoff Ogilvy wrote:
"In effect, the 17th is the ultimate commercial hole in an event run by a quintessentially commercial organization. The prize fund is certainly bigger than it would be if 17 were a "normal" par 3. So it's a perfect fit for the PGA Tour."
(Not sure Finchem would approve!)

The Stadium course is a point-to-point golf course... the only real decision making on this course is "which club do I pull to arrive at the mandated spot". Fine I guess if you like that kind of thing. Maybe it's OK once in a while and no doubt the TPC is a thorough examination of the players talent in following the specified road map.

But still... I prefer courses that give players more options...

Great read as ever.

I heard a rumour that Rory (Titliest man) is using Taylormade Rocketballs 3 wood. Noticed he was longest driver last week and his 3 wood in the play-off was awesome. You are closer to events kwini, can you confirm?

Can't see Rory winning this week as I don't think he likes the course (he and Lee did not bother to play last year) and he won't be able to hit the driver too many times, but will probably contend a little and finish top 5.

Interesting week for Tiger. He needs a bounce back after last week but not his favourite course either.

Kwini, did you read the Haney book? I read it and thought Haney was very sympathetic to Tiger and some interesting 'behind the ropes' insights into Tiger's practice methods and preperations for Majors.

Rickie Fowler got hot and won an event, something he should maybe have done already. I will also continue to maintain that he got very luck with his yardages on the play off hole and again reiterate that takes nothing away from getting the job done. It does however point to the fact he is not the next big thing for American golf. As mentioned on another thread that honour falls to Keegan Bradley who is barely two years Fowlers senior. In two years Rickie will not hold a major title.



If Phil thinks the bunkering is sublime at Quail hollow he is going to need a few changes of pants when he plays somewhere like Merion in next years US open.



Robo - to borrow an F1 term, Sawgrass is maybe a “bit point and squirt”



I really don’t understand what the 17th is trying to test as all the players are hitting 8/9 iron unless there is a strong wind. Is this a shot which needs such an extreme deciding factor in the outcome for us to determine something about a players game? Is it not the case that there will be few players who gain/loose shots to the field for a 150 yard shot? All it does is create a false disparity in the shots lost to the field when hitting a short iron.

Recovery, putting, longer irons, driving accuracy are all things which will have a far greater contribution shots gained and the 17th actually has quite an interesting green. It is quite large and would still provide a challenge without the island aspect. Have a large green where you need to position the ball well to avoid a three putt and you have a recipe for a great par 3 – just look at TOC. The 17th is almost meeting that concept and would be a better hole if it actually did.

We will never know but I think the green in its current form would provide an interesting challenge for players trying to get up and down having missed the green by 5 yards or so.


Super

Give it a rest, as pointed out many times past champions do not take any current player’s places. The field is expandable to accommodate past winners. Just because Lyle takes a place in the field does not mean he is actually competing in the event. Think of it like a sideshow, and one which those interested in the game enjoy.

robo, Mac,
I agree about the point-to-point nature of the TPC but that doesn't detract, in my enjoyment anyway, that determination of the aiming point, and line, off the tee is crucial; middle of the fairway is not good enough sometimes for optimum access to the pin position. And I love #9, #11 and #16, three of the best par fives around.
Still think the tournament is diminished in importance by its May date as opposed to the March spot, but clearly it's good for weather and course conditions.


Cheers Scottie,
Did see that Rory was #1 in driving distance, but almost last in accuracy. Couldn't tell what 3-wood he was using - certainly nothing about Rocketballz on the equipment articles I read, but you never know! (Well, I don't anyway.)
Don't fancy Rory this week myself, feel it neutralizes his strengths and places undue demand on his weaknesses. He's not the only one in that boat though.
Didn't read Haney's book, just extracts and some discussion of it. Two people I'm not particularly interested in really, but maybe I'll get round to it. Most media guys who know Tiger well didn't find it particularly insightful, Jaime Diaz probably covering his arse as he always prided himself on his access to Woods!


Mac,
Is this your Keegan day?
Feel Bradley is a bit overcooked right now, he's played a LOT at a very high level and he seems determined to carry on that way. Playing this week, defending next, probably play Memorial, then Olympic, Hartford, Portrush. Just inviting the sort of braincramp we saw with his 4-putt from four feet last Friday. Would be surprised if he made the weekend this week.

ScottieD18 wrote:I heard a rumour that Rory (Titliest man) is using Taylormade Rocketballs 3 wood. Noticed he was longest driver last week and his 3 wood in the play-off was awesome.

That sure was a freakish 3 wood, longer than Points/Fowler's Drivers by at least 20 yards. He could almost leave the driver out of the bag.

Kwini

As noted on the Irish open thread I hope he is not heading towards (if he hasn't already) some serious burn out. I agree he will be lucky to perform this week.

I hope that is the end of my man crush on keegs. For today anyway.



Reading a list of interesting points from the events history did you know that in 1992 Timmy Finchem fined Calc and John Daly for taking only 2 hours 3 minutes to complete their round? No wonder nothing happens about slow play if that is the sort of mindset in place.

If Rory was using a RBZ club he'd (or JP had) taken the time to paint it black.

Mac,

That rings a distant bell - but don't believe Finchem was commish at that time. Take your point though.
Shotlink provides PGA Tour officials with plenty of data regarding the time golfers need for a round, and often in playing certain shots. It would be healthy all round if some of this data was made public, together with any penalties meted out. Ben Crane, for instance, must have been playing about half an hour slower than Fowler's and McIlroy's groups on Saturday.
Where's the outrage??!!
(I picked Crane in my yahoo team this week though, head ruling the heart which would have dq'd him for previous offences.)

A question if I may... is Ben Crane being put on the clock on a regular basis for slow play and if not why are we complaining about him all the time?

Finchem has never fined anyone for slow play, so the likes of Crane and Bradley are under no pressure to increase their pace of play.

It is odd that no tour seems to make any effort to tackle slow play, which makes me think tour officials want slow play and/or the players want slow play. If either group was bothered by it something would have happened.

I am yet to decide who to go for in your fantasy league but despite a recent relatively barren spell in the event it is hard to look past a Yank. Maybe time for Watney to find some form.

Incon

If you are making the point we can only go on who seems to play slowly then you are correct we don’t know for sure who is slow and can only go on a gut feeling. But as Kwini mentioned the data is available that would allow us to determine who actually is slow and in a more scientific manner.

My money is staying on Crane all the same.


Again why do those in charge of the game and the players not fight harder to tackle slow play?

In some perverse way is there a commercial benefit somehow?

s_r,
It is very likely that there have been fines for slow play, they're just never disclosed by the PGA Tour - in fact, there's a cloak of secrecy over all disciplinary matters, though sanctions against guys such as Daly, Every, Thorpe, Barron, Kaye, Sabbatini etc emerge from time to time.

Was it not at the players a year or two ago Garcia got put on the clock and had a bit of a meltdown?

Kwini, I was listening to Bob Bubka on the radio the other day, and he said there has never been fines under Finchem, although you are probably right, they could perhaps be undisclosed.

However the slower the play, the more coverage on TV the event gets and the more advert breaks are required. More money for Finchem

Mac,
Maybe; I DO know that Poulter got warned on the Saturday that Stenson won for being slow after he'd had to wait in the fairway for 15 minutes while Kevin Na tried to figure out where to play a shot from. Then Poulter's round rather disintegrated only to rebound the following day to finish runner up to Stenson.
(Na is another who is desperately slow.)

Kwini

You are correct it was poulter, I just knew it was one of the temperamental types.

Well there was the famous one a few years ago when Tiger and Paddy got put on the clock, final round of WGC Firestone. They were the last group so it musn't be anything to do with holding up groups behind but I thought someone at the time said it was related to TV schedules.

My query above is this: if slow players are not being sanctioned, then they are not doing anything wrong, and so why do perceived slow players get so much heat from 606v2'ers?

Probably because the amount of time it takes to play a round is absolutely preposterous.

incontinent,
My understanding is that players who are slow on a consistent basis ARE fined, but believe someone like Larry Rinker (more famous as a "Flounder"?)is the last PGA Tour player to actually be penalised strokes - which happens a few times a year on the LPGA Tour.
Remember, the PGA Tour doesn't release details of penalties for even the most flagrant disciplinarary violation.

Woods, for instance, often jokes that he's the most fined player in Tour history. Unlikely given competition from such as Daly and Ken Green but you've never read any official report on Tiger's penalties.

It's a good job Woods isn't fined on the basis of how many chins he's got, he'd be broke.

I think that you can tie the theory of 17th and slow play together. It all comes down to money. If there was a turn off of the audience or sponsors started complaining then maybe there would be some sort of reaction from the administrators.

As for fining players for slow play that is a waste of time. They have enough to make it largely an irrelevance if they think playing at that speed makes them play better. Even if you removed all their prize money from the event for most players the Ranking Points/FedEx points would outweigh the fine pretty quickly due to getting into other events. The only fine should be penalty shots.

I guess the reason that the guys at the sharper end have been put on the clock is that before then there are enough players out on the course that TV can just skip between other players, this isn't possible with the last groups and this is when the TV (ie. money) guys have a word.

To the guys in the US: I wonder if the American psyche is conditioned to breaks at the end of games. When I watch US sports (US football, basketball, etc.) there are loads of time outs and stoppages when the end of the match comes whereas our sports (Football, Rugby, etc) tend to become more frenetic at the end?

Pretty much off topic and too long!!

Re: Poulter / slow play.

Slightly ironic that a Poulter-shaped blur was spotted out on the course last year (it was this tournament, right?) as IJP sprinted several hundred yards to tee off on 18 before it became too dark.

Sky, That's right, forgot about that.
I don't think Poulter is ever slow - that was a totally bogus assessment, but it appeared to unsettle him.

twoeightnine,
Must be the reason I've stopped watching NFL and NBA! They do a very poor job of packaging footie as well, they get the action in but Fox especially are all about action/commercials and offer no proper perspective whatsoever. ESPN do a better job, mainly Ian Darke and Steve McMannaman.

Think slow play and TV commercial time is a red herring - anyway, this week there will be limited commercials. Trouble is Dottie Pepper, Rolfing and Jacobsen are on the commentary team, and there'll be more than enough opportunities for Johnny Miller to show how out of touch he is with "International" players and Tour journeymen.

Sky, it wasn't Poulter that was slow. It was Kevin Na.

All the Players seem to be raving about the condition of the course, but it received some rain Tuesday afternoon and there are thunderstorms in today's forecast also.

Warm today and Thursday, cooling a little to around 80F from Friday on. Chance of a thundershower or two but so far nothing serious forecast. Breezy every day though.

All in all, everything should be set fair for a great challenge.

I went to an NBA game in NY last year which went to overtime. I couldn't believe that they had 2 time outs in a 5 minute session. After about 3 OTs of them I was begging the game to finish. Jet lag didn't help but what should have been an exciting end was more an exercise in staying awake.

kwini

Agree on the 17th, the more I've been watching this tournament over the years the less excited I feel about this hole. Virtually you only have two chances, to get it on the green/fringe or in the water... didn't check any stats for this, but I'm thinking it must be among the par 3s with the lowest probability for scoring a bogey 4... Another slightly annoying thing about it, is the endless number of near carbon-copies that have been implemented in so many new courses around the world built in the last couple of decades...

As for the tournament this year, it's as hard to predict as always, but from the top guys I have a good feeling that Westwood could be there or thereabouts...

I've only seen some highlights on PGATour.com from the WHOF pageant and was wondering who is actually paying for all that lavishness... I understand that Peter Alliss has been well behaved and PC in what he said, but his middle finger went a bit loose at some point...?

pd, Thanks!
I think Peter Alliss's digitally erectile dysfunction was a message to his school headmistress who was of the opinion that "Peter does have a brain but he's rather loth to use it. His only interests appear to be the game of golf and Violet Pretty."
He then thanked his late parents and his early family and, "Mrs.Weymouth, if you're there (up above)". At that he gave her the finger.
Nice!

As I have nothing but ill will to our school headmaster, hopefully long since departed, I can empathise!!

super_realist wrote:Sky, it wasn't Poulter that was slow. It was Kevin Na.

Correct. Unfortunately it's not just the slow player that gets "put on the clock" it's the entire group. And I would agree that can unfairly cause stress on the player(s) in the group who aren't causing the problem. IMO such was the case with Poulter.

But the case with Harrington and Tiger at Bridgestone was just the opposite. Paddy was the one playing agonizingly slow... and when the group got put on the clock, IMO Harrington suddenly had to rush and made some bad decisions/shots. So while I think it was fair that that group was put on the clock... I hated to see the fact that what was up to that point a GREAT head-to-head battle, suddenly dissipated when Paddy fell apart.

Here's my impressions on some other slow players...

Webb Simpson - IMO he's getting to be one of the slowest out there, but you usually don't see it on TV because they usually only pick him up when he's ready to hit. His problem is that he and Tesori are taking so much time discussing shot options, and sometimes reading putts its getting beyond ridiculous. But on the other end of the coin... Webb's actually pretty quick once the decision is made. (OH and one other nit-pick on Webb. I get so sick of hearing "we had 132 to the pin", "we made a nice shot on 14...". No Webb WE didn't do those things. YOU did.)

Jim Furyk - IMO he gets a bad rap as a slow player because of the set-up, then back up, then set-up again routine he has. BUT, Jim and and Fluff are incredibly efficient at being the "anti-Webb", in getting yardage and deciding what to do and once he steps in that final time... he pulls the trigger pretty quick. If you took Furyk's total time including reading, deciding, setting up and executing the shot... my guess it would be 1/2 to 1/3 that of a Webb Simpson or Kevin Na.

IMO, it is unfair to watch the players on TV and anoint them as slow players.

Case in Point: Jim Furyk

Jim (The Human Balk) Furyk appears to be slow because of the pre-putt routine. And what do we see on TV, the pre-putt routine. I have never heard any fellow pro complain about Furyk, and not heard about his groups being on the clock.

For those reasons, I assume that Furyk makes up for slow pre-putt routine by doing other things (off camera) quickly. Like reading the putts while others are putting, walking quickly, etc.

ditto: Keegan Bradley

And I guess once you get a reputation as a slow player, you cannot shake it with some people on this board. Ben Crane used to be a slow player. I don't think he is a fast player, but I think he is middle of the pack. I have heard no complaints from the players about Ben Crane.

princedracula wrote:I understand that Peter Alliss has been well behaved and PC in what he said, but his middle finger went a bit loose at some point...?

Well... Alliss wasn't quite as PC as the TV broadcast indicated... Some slightly more "suggestive" portions were "redacted" from what we saw. BUT the full transcript (albeit slightly garbled) exists in it's entirety. (see: http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=79466)

I am sure I remember Paddy getting put on the clock once and having a storming round. Afterwards he was having a laugh about it saying that perhaps he should learn from it...

I think it was the same year that he spent about 15 minutes at the Belfry deciding which side of the lake to drop his ball to while the groups behind just queued up. Surely if you can only look for your ball for 5 minutes they should be able to make the same rule about deciding on where to drop the ball.

Just to be fair in equal national opportunity(!), watching Martin Laird is very similar to watching Keegan Bradley, style and pace of play, high ball, long putter etc, etc.

Agree Furyk is normal.

robo,
The irony of the Firestone incident is that Tiger had been slow (due to a couple of rulings) up to the point of Paramor's unwelcome intervention. But Tiger can slow down or speed up at will; Padraig only has one gear! Ruined a great battle as you say.


GPB,
Come on! Crane is brutal!! Popular among fellow players so perhaps that mitigates criticism.

The longer I spend over a shot, the worse it will be due to tension and hesitation. I don't even take a practice swing now, just line it up and hit it. The brain takes care of all the other stuff.

IMO: Crane "USED TO BE" Brutal. I think he is much better these days. Players can change!

kwinigolfer wrote:pd, Thanks!
I think Peter Alliss's digitally erectile dysfunction was a message to his school headmistress who was of the opinion that "Peter does have a brain but he's rather loth to use it. His only interests appear to be the game of golf and Violet Pretty."
He then thanked his late parents and his early family and, "Mrs.Weymouth, if you're there (up above)". At that he gave her the finger.
Nice!

I wonder why PGATour.com didn't see this as a worthy highlight to include it in that clip I've seen...

Thanks for the link, robo!

Thanks for the write up Kwin.

So Phil changes his tune on Quail Hollow? Masterful PR spin from team Phil. Give me a backbone any day.

I have a bit of a love/hate view of the 17th at TPC. I love that it's an all or nothing shot, but hate that it's about as unstrategic as it gets. Once a year is fine IMO.

I recall you penned Luke Donald in for this very early in the year. I think it's the right call. We're due for another "international" win on tour.

Hi Shotrock,
Actually think Phil is being 100% consistent if it's QH you're referring to: Loves the course design, hates the green complexes. As the greens are apparently being re-done, he's happy!

I think Luke and Lee Westwood are the popular choices for this week's Players fantasy game, Mahan top American. Tough to argue with that; amongst outsiders, I wouldn't put it past Cauley and Every to continue their recent good form on what is for them a local course.
Hopefully you've made your small each way investment in SO'H?

I think I heard that QH is going form bent grass greens to either Champions bermuda, or its close cousin mini-verde.

Good move, IMO. These news bermuda hybrids putt like bent grass but with the maintenance advantage of bermuda. less maintenance, less water, less chemicals.

and you can get incredible speeds out of these greens.

Some quick notes from on course on Wed!
Place was hot today! Car said 96 when we left. Course does look in great nick, hard hard ground. Greens look to have a tinge of brown already.
Rory looks like he's free wheeling it. Dyson, out on practice round with Rors, limping noticeably. Watney struggled with 17th, one water ball followed by nearly another. No other great observations on the players.

Good tournament hole or not the 17th was good on practice day, with caddies hitting as well.

PS saw George O'Grady in Orlando airport immigrations queue. Totally bottled asking for a possible invitation for this week...

Looking forward to this tournament. I love the 17th!!!!

Lairdy,
Enjoy yourself - Think the caddies have a closest-to-the-pin competition on #17 on the Wednesday (yesterday). Keep cool!

The 17th is high drama. But is it golf??!! And, if not, does it matter??!!??

Why does the 17th hole at Sawgrass get so much bad press when the 18th hole at Golf National in France, for example, gets good press yet that has a green which is basically an island??

Anyone else think the tiny bunker on TPC 17th is a bit stupid?