Serving - today vs yesteryear

So we hear Sam Groth has served at 263kph/163mph...and we also see Raonic serving 145mph on average.
Then we also have Isner and Karlovic serving big too, i.e. 140mph+

My point is that I believe we've always had huge servers but as today's guys speeds are tracked at the racquet head, not above the net, it just makes the guys seem quicker. Having seen Goran and Krajieck serve, I wouldnt say they were slower than any of todays guys. I would imagine if Goran was around now he'd be av. 145ish, sometimes maybe over 150, similarly Krajicek. I would also imagine Sampras would be around 135 and sometimes over 140. Infact, I'm still amazed that Sampras got anywhere near the speed he did with that 85sq in racquet strung at 85lbs - and he was 6'1' to boot, not 6'5' plus.

Your thoughts on todays servers vs. the past? Do you think they're quicker today (or even better)?

Roscoe Tanner!

I remember years ago, Phillipoussis being tested with a wooden racket. His fastest serve with wood (should I re-phrase that?) was about the same as his normal racket, but the average was a bit lower.

I guess these days, if you can get your return, with a modern racket, onto a faster serve, you've got more chance of the return going in than with a wooden racket, so maybe it evens itself out.

I agree lydian, I still remember where Borg stood to receive serve in that final. Somewhere just behind the line judge.

This is one area that the technology hasn't improved, they can serve just as fast with the old wooden ones.

I suspect the current players serve a little quicker than the guys in the past, because they are fitter, stronger and using better equipment. However, I think the benefit of a huge crushing serve has (for the better) been eroded by the use of rackets with a more forgiving hitting zone, making the returns more effective. Imagine trying to return a 150mph serve with something like Connors old metal Wilson racket (modern squash rackets have bigger heads than that thing) - you might get one in 10 in a position you could control it. Now, the bigger heads allow good players to punch through the return, so if you're a really big server you just find the ball back with you before you are set for the third shot.

It is interesting though that when big servers have tried the old school rackets there is little difference in the best serve speed but a decrease in the average. Would be interesting if a couple of guys would play a full 5 set match with wooden rackets to see how much the extra weight of them would affect performance in the latter stages (although probably a good thing for Isner and Mahut that they weren't made to do this).

dummy_half wrote:I suspect the current players serve a little quicker than the guys in the past, because they are fitter, stronger and using better equipment. However, I think the benefit of a huge crushing serve has (for the better) been eroded by the use of rackets with a more forgiving hitting zone, making the returns more effective. Imagine trying to return a 150mph serve with something like Connors old metal Wilson racket (modern squash rackets have bigger heads than that thing) - you might get one in 10 in a position you could control it. Now, the bigger heads allow good players to punch through the return, so if you're a really big server you just find the ball back with you before you are set for the third shot.

Don't need to imagine it, I remember it. He did it.

Still the greatest returner ever, especially when you consider the points you make on racquets.

From here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/tennis/features/newsid_3000000/3000836.stm

"When big hitter Mark Philippoussis compared the speed of his serves using wood and graphite racquets, they were found to be almost the same.
The difference was that the graphite racquet was far more accurate. "

From here - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1899876,00.html

"a 1997 test by Tennis Magazine found that 6 ft. 5 in. (1.96 m) Australian Mark Philippoussis served at an average speed of 124 m.p.h. (200 km/h) with his own graphite racket, and an only slightly slower 122 m.p.h. (196 km/h) with a classic wooden racket"

Connors once said (jokingly perhaps) that he aimed his shots 3 ft past the baseline on the assumption he could rarely hit the ball in the Wilson's tiny sweet spot.

It figures that the peak speed is not much different, but the average is way better on a modern racquet. The margin for error with wood is much smaller, and the vibrations felt from mistiming are awful.

As well as speed, it's worth remembering that Connors (and players of his ilk) played loads of matches on grass when the ball would skid through and stay low, not to mention fast carpet too.

Aye BB...I remember a 2-3 yrs ago seeing Borg serve at 200kph on the seniors tour at 50 yr old! And he wouldnt be trying his hardest.
McEnroe could also fair punt it when he didnt so that outwide lefty serve although he was by no means as quick as Borg. They say Tilden could serve at 130mph. And Goran was timed at 142mph on the seniors tour last year, and with a kn**kered shoulder! Can you imagine an older guy down your club turning up and unleashing serves at that speed?! Has anyone here ever faced serves of 120mph plus?

At the end of the day, serving is a throwing action and we havent suddenly evolved our throwing action.

Yes JHM, I remember that trial that Phillopousis did and the similar speeds he attained. Agreed bigger racuqets, and bigger sweet spots, allow for better returning now but I dont think returning per se has improved at all. Infact I think the overall quality of returning is not as good these days, i.e. returning back to specific locations on the court with intent (i.e. power, slice, etc).

15 years ago and before, you had to make really good returns or else the guy would kill your shot at the net. Todays players know they can almost just get the ball back intp play knowing it wont be killed off at the net - so they put less juice or guile on the returns. Hitting it back deep is often all that is required. Lower risk is the name of the game these days.
You used to see amazing dipping returns at the volleyers feet, or those short, angled chipped returns that had no pace on them making the volley very difficult. A shot I always loved was the off-backhand volley played almost infront of the player, i.e. backhand volley that didnt go cross court...to do that off a hard struck return was one of the hardest shots in the game.

Sounds like I'm lamenting fine serving with variety and the S&V game here...

lydian wrote:A shot I always loved was the off-backhand volley played almost infront of the player, i.e. backhand volley that didnt go cross court...to do that off a hard struck return was one of the hardest shots in the game.

You mean when the player is more or less cutting across the plane of the ball? I.e. racket going left to right (for a right-hander) across the front of the body. That's a great shot to watch, especially when they dig it up from below the height of the net.

Exactly that one JHM - and they would have to adjust their body position very quickly to make room for the shot too. A complete joy to watch - a shot that marked true talent in being able to play it against a very heavy ball back to them. Can only think of a few who were truly great at it...McEnroe, Edberg, Sampras and Rafter. Guys like Henman, Becker and some others could play it, but not with the same degree of incisive cutting as you put it.

I played a great one of those in doubles the other week when the ball was whacked back at me at great speed (OK, I was already at the net).
Shocked my opponents, and shocked me even more!

Bravo! I know what you mean there, there's not much more satisfying in a match than a rapier like volley cleanly and decisively put away...whether you're in good position or not.

The fastest servers are usually not very savvy when it comes to ball placement. Groth served at 163mph and 2 further 150+ and ultimately bowed out 6-3 6-4 to a challenge level player called Ignatik.

Over powering your serve will take energy away from ground game, just saying.

Agree JM...at the end of the day look at Nadal, quite possibly the weakest serve in the top 20 (besides Murray's 2nd) and it hasnt stopped him racking up the wins. As they say, its how you back it up. Also, serving at that speed is a sure fire way of developing a long-term shoulder problem...no matter how smooth your action is.

Wrong they can't serve just as fast with wood racquets as with modern racquets another preposterous statement by the man who makes more of them than wilt chamberlain has ex girlfriends. Seriously, BB do you deny that radar guys are shooting up the charts in the last 15 years? I remember when i was growing the biggest guys topped out at low 130s, guys like edberg and becker were probably in the 120s with their biggest serves, becker could hit 130s. Now that is like the industry standard serve and the biggest servers are the guys in the 140s and 150s. That is what boggles my mind with all this discussion of speeding up courts and conditions.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:The fastest servers are usually not very savvy when it comes to ball placement. Groth served at 163mph and 2 further 150+ and ultimately bowed out 6-3 6-4 to a challenge level player called Ignatik.

Over powering your serve will take energy away from ground game, just saying.

Yep, ultimately placement will invariably outweigh pure speed

Any thoughts as to who might have served the highest number of aces in a Slam Final....?

lags72 wrote:

Josiah Maiestas wrote:The fastest servers are usually not very savvy when it comes to ball placement. Groth served at 163mph and 2 further 150+ and ultimately bowed out 6-3 6-4 to a challenge level player called Ignatik.

Over powering your serve will take energy away from ground game, just saying.

Yep, ultimately placement will invariably outweigh pure speed

Any thoughts as to who might have served the highest number of aces in a Slam Final....?

Fed served 50 vs. that well-known big-server Andy Roddick at Wimbledon in 2009! It's a moot point whether Fed's serving or Roddick's returning made the biggest contribution.

If you look at the Ace statistics you'll notice another interesting factor. Until the Isner/Mahut marathon (and I think that they are 1st and 2nd in the 'most aces' list), in the list of matches in which one player had served the highest numbers of aces he had ended up on the losing side. I think that Fed's match stood out as a rare examle of the server being the winner. That speaks volumes.

Yep, that was the match I was thinking of.

But I imagine there must have been a good few aces served up in those Finals involving Sampras, Ivanisevic and Rafter

socal1976 wrote:Wrong they can't serve just as fast with wood racquets as with modern racquets another preposterous statement by the man who makes more of them than wilt chamberlain has ex girlfriends. Seriously, BB do you deny that radar guys are shooting up the charts in the last 15 years? I remember when i was growing the biggest guys topped out at low 130s, guys like edberg and becker were probably in the 120s with their biggest serves, becker could hit 130s. Now that is like the industry standard serve and the biggest servers are the guys in the 140s and 150s. That is what boggles my mind with all this discussion of speeding up courts and conditions.

And Roscoe Tanner served at 153mph with a wooden racquet and routinely over 140mph. I guess he was superhuman.

And Mark Phillipoussis tested modern and old racquets and his best speeds were the same with both old and new equipment. Did that boggle your mind?

Or maybe you just flaunted your ignorance of the game. Again.

Socal, don't forget the way the speed is measured has changed...it used to be measured above the height of the net, now it's measured at the racquet head. That makes a large difference to the speed recorded. If you go back and watch Goran or Krajicek serving and compare them to the big servers now there's little visual difference...don't forget Goran still holds the record for most aces served in a year - 1477. And I would say those 90s guys had much better placement - the aces count supports that.

Goran was timed at 145mph in an eXhibition vs. Luber last year - and with a knackered shoulder! Given he and Sampras were stated as fastest serves in the 90s as 140mph and 139mph respectively (which shows how far off the speed recorded back then was compared to today)...it doesn't take much to guess they both could have gone at least 145mph in their prime and probably more. Sampras's average 2nd serve speed at (I think) USO2000 was 118mph...again on probably older ways of recording speed.

Intended to mention that too, Lydian.

What was that about preposterous statements, socal?

Wrong BB, Roscoe Tanner did not hit a serve recorded at 153 miles per hour with a wooden racquet I would like a real verifiable link to that in the real world not in bizzarro BB world.

Lydian I watched those guys in the 90s and 80s, the 90s guys were very close to the miles per hour of today's players while still a bit behind. The 80s guys mainly due to technology weren't even close. And I also don't know why they would change the way they measure the speed of the ball and not tell anyone about it and present 2 different numbers as the same.

His serve was hit in 1978.

The dynamics of serving at pace with the wooden racquets are fine. Phillipoussis proved it.

Stop digging.

Based on this video (a fairly randomly chosen one from about a decade ago - Sampras vs Becker):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRdE1b_Vd4g

It would seem that, just judged by eye, Becker was serving about the same speed that the likes of Federer does nowadays. Sampras' first serve looks bigger - he was probably up at the very top end of Roger's serve speed, and seems to be nearer today's 140mph mark. His second serve is particularly impressive in this video (well, at least in the early part; I didn't watch all of it) - the second serve around 2:15 would have made a perfectly good first serve for a lot of players, and Becker did well to get it back.

An interesting topic Lydian. As a child growing up I was fascinated by the big servers so have paid great attention to this so-called development through the years.

Ivanisevic for me still stands alone as the best server of all time. The thunderbolts that came crashing from his racquet were like chalk magnets such was his unerring accuracy. They were also loaded with spin and nearly as well disguised as Sampras' deliveries. Ivanisevic rarely served flat, and if he did I have no doubts his average speeds would be higher still. Watching many reruns of his matches on Youtube as I have, the potency of his serves has not diminished one jot.

With racquet technology enabling a higher percentage of returns it’s as if players are less focused on perfecting the art of serving. The big servers of today like Isner tend to bludgeon the ball down with little regard for the nuances of what makes a serve so tricky to return, probably in search of a headline mph figure. Yet watching the ball pass over the court my eyes find the speed indistinguishable from a Krajicek or Philippoussis, much as the radar might tell a different story.

The only modern server I’ll reserve a special mention to is Karlovic. With such a poor all round game to rely on he has had to develop his serve to be the best weapon it can possibly be, and seeing him throwing bombs down the court live is pretty special. As notable for the height of the bounce as much as the speed, it’s a surprisingly accurate serve too.

For SoCal... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_recorded_tennis_serves

(Most are verified with differences of measurement as Lydian notes).

Welcome to 606v2, NorfolkTurkey.

Tilden, Gonzalez (remember Sampras and Federer modeled their respective serves using Pancho's technique). Hoad, Budge, Trabert, Clerc have had fast serves.

Unfortunately recording equipment has also become more accurate and sophisticated, and some yesteryear records exist only on paper.

Will have to go and read Bud Collins a bit.

I tend to find that service action has much greater impact on the speed than the actual equipment. Take Ivanisevic and the recently retired Ljubicic who both had the same service action which was one fluid action. All the pressure coming from the hips and rotation of the shoulder.

Take Roddick who for me has service action which I am amazed has not blown his shoulders out. A lot of leaning back and a very straight ball toss. Take Soderling as well who has a very straight ball toss and service action and he can give the ball a mighty old whack.

Dolgopolov and Agassi have similar serving techniques where they have a shorter backswing and yet they can generate huge speed.

Take the top 4 by where Nadal and Djokovic have very slow service actions and tend to put more emphasis on accuracy than power. Murray for me has a very lazy service action and this could explain such the difference in speeds on both of his serves as he goes for power on his first and then accuracy on the second.

The 2 greatest champions of all time in Sampras and Federer. The Sampras serve is one of pure envy. Arguably the loosest swing I have ever seen on a serve and yet able to draw amazing power. The Federer serve not too far away from the Sampras one. Federer despite seemingly leaning and also diagonal ball toss and his serve out wide to the BH is a thing of beauty.

Becker and Courier had very lax service actions and still managed to serve some stunning aces.

really interesting article lydian!

Morning all, some further great points - and welcome to the forum NorfolkTurkey!

I would agree Goran is right up there as a server - IMO 2nd only to Sampras...and you do have to marvel at Sampras' serve given he was 'only' 6'1'. The ability to crank those 2nd serves at around 120mph without recording many double faults is simply staggering. And often hitting 2nd serve aces at BP down...that takes cojones. To be fair Goran would also produce sublime serving under pressure too...but we saw often what happened when those 2 players met....Pete would eventually break down Goran's serve, or rather Goran couldnt sustain it as long as Pere. Thats no mean feat though.

Agree that Roddick's action is very different from others, very little take back, although the end segment is the same as other big servers. There are critical things all the big servers do similarly...the way they form a kind of rhomboid shape as they throw the ball up, and the racquet arm still points more towards the net not the audience behind - this is a simple area that Nadal didnt do for a long time, and then corrected it for USO'10. People think it was grip change (and it was a little) but it was a fundamental change of arm and racquet positioning that made the huge difference (there are YouTube videos explaining the difference clearly). Its a difference that even club players can pay attention to and change, giving another 10-15mph without any extra effort needed.

So its not so much the backswing thats important (as Roddick shows) as the whip-effect at the end which creates the racquet head speed.

My favourite service action is Stich...beautifully simple and graceful motion and by today's speeds he was also over 140mph (I class 140mph+ as a 'big' server).

A token mention for comedy serve action must go to Karsten Braasch...anyone remember the guy?

HERE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4fLWCcg7OA

Of course this was the guy who was challenged to a set of tennis by Venus Williams thinking she could beat a top male player. There was an hilarious recount of the story in the Guardian once upon a time...Braasch was a real character and said that he prepared for the match by smoking a few cigarettes(!!) and limbering up...he then promptly went on to beat her 6-0 (at 4-0 he said he 'eased' up abit...lol), and then said I'll take your sister on as well, who got roundly beat by the same score. The Williams sisters never challenged another male player after that.

BTW - there was a 'theory' put out that any male player with just 1 ATP point to his name could beat the #1 female player of the day...

lydian wrote:BTW - there was a 'theory' put out that any male player with just 1 ATP point to his name could beat the #1 female player of the day...

There is a Johnny Mc/Murray video that I have seen in the past and a number like 10000 being mentioned.
But BJK-Riggs may not agree.

As mentioned earlier, here's how Nadal changed his serve... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfA3RlAXpdg

As an aside, I once played against a guy who had no left arm below the elbow, and he held the ball and racket with his right hand for his ball toss, and delivered a very reasonable serve.

Obviously I was impressed enough by the dexterity involved to still remember it 20-odd years later.

I love it the verifiable link for Roscoe tanner serve of 153 is in wikipedia and wikipedia says to not rely on the statement because it is unverified and based on inaccurate equipment. There you go like I thought that is what passes as a verifiable source for BB.

Funny as you analyze the wikipedia chart that laverfan puts up virtually all the top serves are in the last 4 years or 5 years. More backing for the ridiculous proposition that you can serve just as fast with the old racquets as with new technology.

For my money sampras is the greatest server of all time bar none. He has a great first serve but two things separated sampras from the other power servers of his era.

1. Consistency: He just hit for such a high percentage eventhough he was topping to some very high numbers on the radar guy. Sampras ordinarily would have matches where he would serve 130s and 70 plus percent first serve percentage. In those matches no matter who was playing him they were pretty much reduced to mere spectators.

2. The second serve. As the old adage goes you are as good as your second serve. Well Sampras if that is the case has the greatest second serve I have ever seen. Of course conditions are slower and more favorable to the returners but Pete could be just as aggressive and effective off his second as his first, or very nearly so.

Roscoe Tanner 153 mph serve http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1103/tennis-fastest-serves/content.3.html

It's possible that it was measured with older radar guns, but it's safe to assume it was near enough 150 mph.
We've already pointed out that The Scud served just as fast when he tried a wooden racket. So clearly you can serve just as fast with old racquets. Far from being a 'ridiculous proposition', it's a verifiable fact.

Newer measurements, taken at the racket head, not as the ball passes the net will lead to modern serves generally being timed as quicker.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Roscoe Tanner 153 mph serve http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1103/tennis-fastest-serves/content.3.html

It's possible that it was measured with older radar guns, but it's safe to assume it was near enough 150 mph.
We've already pointed out that The Scud served just as fast when he tried a wooden racket. So clearly you can serve just as fast with old racquets. Far from being a 'ridiculous proposition', it's a verifiable fact.

Newer measurements, taken at the racket head, not as the ball passes the net will lead to modern serves generally being timed as quicker.

Rusedski has the last word.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1103/tennis-fastest-serves/content.7.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLVnrUKL8yY

Thanks for the welcomes, I’ve actually been browsing on and off for some time but rarely find the time to post...

The Sampras-Ivanisevic matches certainly proved Sampras had the better mental resolve. Whereas Sampras kept his head and his arm swinging freely Ivanisevic wilted under self-doubt. The ’92 final defeat to Agassi left some scars that he never truly recovered from.

When looking at serve stats it’s important to make the distinction between ‘percentage points won on first serve’ from ‘unreturnable first serves’, which is a purer measure of serving success. I can well imagine the former category being a very close-run thing, as Sampras’ killer one-two punch combination of serve and volley and overall game would even things up.

Second serves are of course a different story, as the ability to cope under pressure is a more significant factor. Here I can certainly see the argument for placing Sampras at the top of the pile.

Stich is an interesting mention. If I recall correctly he outgunned the mighty Boris Becker in the mph stats during their Wimbledon final, something I found disappointing at the time. I had always placed Becker on a pedestal with his “booming serve” and spent some time trying to model my own serve on his. Not very successfully I might add!

Welcome from me too!