The importance of a Strong Second (and third) team

Mark McCall has been moaning commentating about how important it is to have a deep squad to cover injuries, call-ups and resting players, if you want to compete on two fronts.

If you want to compete in your domestic league and in Europe you need to rest your top players - especially as these are the guys who will also be playing internationals.

If we look at the Leinster team that will be striving to become only the second team to successfully defend the HC, we can see that less than a handfull of players have been stalwarts in their Rabo12 team, with 107 starts spread amongst the 15 players (maximum of 330 - 22*15):

Kearney 5
McFadden 10
O'Driscoll 3
D'Arcy 6
Nacewa 15
Sexton 5
Reddan 7
Heaslip 4
O'Brien 4
McLaughlin 13
Thorn 3
Cullen 6
Ross 6
Strauss 14
Healy 6

Total 107


Now considering just how well Leinster did in the regular season Rabo we can appreciate just how strong their second team must be.

On the other hand, the Sarries team that played at Welford Road had made almost double the number of League starts:

Goode 22
Strettle 14
Farrell 15
Barritt 15
Wyles 14
Hodgson 13
DeKock 14
Joubert 19
Fraser 7
Wray 11
Borthwick 19
Botha 13
Stevens 7
Brits 16
Gill 14

Total 213

Sarries just do not have the depth of quality in the squad to cope with injuries/call-ups to then rotate players sufficiently to ensure they are at their peak at the business end of the season. At full strength they are pretty decent - they did beat the Ospreys home and away after all.

I am in complete awe at the quality of the squad available to Leinster. While not as deep, tigers may well be developing a solid second team. hopefully next season they can start better so the team is not always playing catch-up.

In a non RWC year the Tigers will do very well. I think they are in with a great shout for next year in Dublin.

Leinster have exceptional depth and a coach who is very adept at rotation....remember the home and away team thing? They've rotated a fair bit in the HEC group stages as well.

I would suspect that if you were to compare Ulster and Saracens then the difference would be much less profound in terms of starts.

rodders wrote:Leinster have exceptional depth and a coach who is very adept at rotation....remember the home and away team thing? They've rotated a fair bit in the HEC group stages as well.

I would suspect that if you were to compare Ulster and Saracens then the difference would be much less profound in terms of starts.

I dunno. Some of the lads you sent to Dublin at Christmas. I don't think even their mammys had even heard of them.

red_stag wrote:In a non RWC year the Tigers will do very well. I think they are in with a great shout for next year in Dublin.

Getting out of the group would be a start

Our second XV should be strong enough to play in rather a lot of the AP matches, so hopefully we will have good rotation and build to the critical HC games.

red_stag wrote:In a non RWC year the Tigers will do very well. I think they are in with a great shout for next year in Dublin.

With the way we are playing at the moment, I genuinely think that we could make HC finals. However we do need a bit of luck on our side as we do need a squad 100% fit to do so and we need start playing well in the earlier months of the season especially in HC to get home quarter-finals or at least get in a quarter-final.

Avoiding Leinster will be the big one. Make your own luck in the pool stages. Top your group. Get a home quarter and go from there.

Rodders - Ulster fell away in the Rabo, so really have only competed on the one front in the end. Their first team is strong, the backup less so.

I would suspect that if you were to compare Ulster and Saracens then the difference would be much less profound in terms of starts.

Yes, no offence to Ulster but I think all European clubs will be looking at the Leinster domination over the last couple of years and thinking "that's what we've got to be better than". Irrelevent on league and call ups (you could argue the Rabo is a weaker league but then Leinster have a lot more call ups than non-Rabo teams). They are the current bench mark in terms of success.

It's not going unnoticed either, as mentioned above Tigers are striving to bring through significant depth in squad. They have a younger squad than in previous times and seem to be hell bent on filing out the weaker areas in their squad in order to compete on multiple levels. Cockerill will not be satisfied with another pool exit from the HEC, even if the pool is as brutal as this year. Similarly the AP must be fought for, it is the clubs bread and butter and what the majority of fans pay good money to see and it's the fans good money that keeps the club going (in terms of income and the fact all the shares are owned by the fans). Going to be a testing year but we've recruited well and I'm looking forward to unleashing Mulipola, Ford and our new wingers on the HEC!

LondonTiger wrote:

Our second XV should be strong enough to play in rather a lot of the AP matches, so hopefully we will have good rotation and build to the critical HC games.

I thought that at the start of this season that we could get mid-table during RWC, but I was deeply misguided there.So I am not so confident anymore. However I think that was also down to the mind set players had during that period and the lack of them with Waldrom bench warming in NZ etc. With the key men still around the squad I dont think that would happen again.

Also if Ford improves his goalkicking and beefs up over the summer, I feel we could rotate him and Floody in HC matched. Ford for tight away games as he has better kicking from hand and Floody for home games and the BP's.

With 158 Rabo starts, ulster are halfway between Leinster and Sarries.

Saracens seem as strange example of a side allegedly with rubbish strength in depth.

Ok no team competes with Leinster but to say Saracens strength in depth is poor is strange to say the least.

Yes Saracens were awful in the AP weren't they. Winning more games than all sides in the AP bar Quins. 2nd/3rd highest contingents of players away in the world cup and 6 nations.

Who is in Leinster's backrow if you strip them of O Brien and Heaslip?

beshocked wrote:Who is in Leinster's backrow if you strip them of O Brien and Heaslip?

Shane Jennings, Kevin McLaughlin, Rhys Ruddock - all have a few Irish international caps

Dominic Ryan, Leo Auv'a - young Irish guys who can cover when guys are missing.

Then O'Brien and Heaslip are the established internationals.

beshocked wrote:

Who is in Leinster's backrow if you strip them of O Brien and Heaslip?

Auva'a
Heaslip
Jennings
McLaughlin
O'Brien
Ruddock
Ryan

And that is just the ones on the HC squad list.

beshocked wrote:Saracens seem as strange example of a side allegedly with rubbish strength in depth.

Ok no team competes with Leinster but to say Saracens strength in depth is poor is strange to say the least.

Yes Saracens were awful in the AP weren't they. Winning more games than all sides in the AP bar Quins. 2nd/3rd highest contingents of players away in the world cup and 6 nations.

Who is in Leinster's backrow if you strip them of O Brien and Heaslip?

Even Mark Mccall has said you have struggled to cope with competing on two fronts. Sarries have not had a bad season and no one is saying that but the benchmark for strength in depth is now Leinster and Sarries are simply not near that standard.

I thought that at the start of this season that we could get mid-table during RWC, but I was deeply misguided there.

Injuries to so many players on top of the call ups meant Tigers were missing 20ish players. I think Leinster would even struggle when missing 20 players.

Saracens seem as strange example of a side allegedly with rubbish strength in depth.

I don't think that was what was being said. I think he was giving credence to the comments of McCall and suggesting that Leinster's strength lay in their massive squad and that should be the target for clubs hoping to emmulate their success.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I thought that at the start of this season that we could get mid-table during RWC, but I was deeply misguided there.

Injuries to so many players on top of the call ups meant Tigers were missing 20ish players. I think Leinster would even struggle when missing 20 players.

Saracens seem as strange example of a side allegedly with rubbish strength in depth.

I don't think that was what was being said. I think he was giving credence to the comments of McCall and suggesting that Leinster's strength lay in their massive squad and that should be the target for clubs hoping to emmulate their success.

I think we were up to about 23 during the WC. We had 13 just with the Ireland team, plus injuries etc. Then again we did lose 2 games in September.

LondonTiger wrote:Rodders - Ulster fell away in the Rabo, so really have only competed on the one front in the end. Their first team is strong, the backup less so.

Yes but we were there or thereabouts right up until the final weekend of the regular season and that was after a very poor start to the season, when our WC contingent were away. We only just missed out on the play-off so it wasn't like we didn't give the league a real go... but yes the lack of depth cost us in the end.

My point was that not all the Rabo teams are in Leinsters position were they can rotate and still be competitive on two fronts.

Obviously Leinster are the benchmark but Saracens seem a strange example of how not to do it.

I haven't seen the stats but I expect all the AP sides to have more "1st team "players fighting it out in the AP. It's because it's generally perceived a higher intensity league and most teams aren't as affected by international call ups.

Leinster are the exception not the norm. I would say in terms of strength in depth both Leicester and Saracens can match most Pro12 sides.

Manu I wouldn't say Saracens are as far away as you think.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

I thought that at the start of this season that we could get mid-table during RWC, but I was deeply misguided there.

Injuries to so many players on top of the call ups meant Tigers were missing 20ish players. I think Leinster would even struggle when missing 20 players.

[quote]

First game of season had our starting backrow at the moment started and still lost, granted that doesnt look as bad as a defeat now Exeter finished 5th. But still a defeat at WR is always dissapointing and I think the lack of success was also due to a lack of big leadership players eg Murphy during training showing what is expected to less experienced players. So I am not too disheartened just cautious, I do think that we have the depth to rotate more and really concentrate on big HC games.

In particular it's the forwards that need the depth, the best squads have two packs which can both compete at top levels. Take leicester:

Cole
Chuter
Ayertza
Parling
Deacon
Croft
Salvi
Crane

Castro
Youngs
Mulipola
Slater
Kitchener
Mafi
Newby
Waldrom

Most clubs would kill for either of those packs!

[quote="Manu's Boxing Coach"][quote="formerly known as Sam"]

I thought that at the start of this season that we could get mid-table during RWC, but I was deeply misguided there.

Injuries to so many players on top of the call ups meant Tigers were missing 20ish players. I think Leinster would even struggle when missing 20 players.

First game of season had our starting backrow at the moment started and still lost, granted that doesnt look as bad as a defeat now Exeter finished 5th. But still a defeat at WR is always dissapointing and I think the lack of success was also due to a lack of big leadership players eg Murphy during training showing what is expected to less experienced players. So I am not too disheartened just cautious, I do think that we have the depth to rotate more and really concentrate on big HC games.

I imagine Tigers never expected to lose that game and when you did there were no old international players to pick the youngsters up and tell them to forget about it.

yappysnap wrote:In particular it's the forwards that need the depth, the best squads have two packs which can both compete at top levels. Take leicester:

Cole
Chuter
Ayertza
Parling
Deacon
Croft
Salvi
Crane

Castro
Youngs
Mulipola
Slater
Kitchener
Mafi
Newby
Waldrom

Most clubs would kill for either of those packs!

Just a tad short at hooker but still hopefull Youngs with more game time can come through. I do think recent acquisitions of Salvi and Mulipola has given the tigers outstanding depth in the pack now. With new additions of Bowden, Benjamin etc and hopefully an AP win we should be up for a very good season next year. Just hope the new wingers can live up to Tuilagi and Agulla who has played even better since he has been told he wont be given a new contract.

I think it's easier for Leinster to give youngsters experience, because they have so many international call ups and the IRFU restricts how much players can play, they have no choice. But just because it takes more balls for a Premiership team to rotate and experiment doesn't mean they shouldn't.

If I was an English coach I'd forget about pointing out that Edinburgh finished so low in the PRO12 and reached a HC semi. That would be irrelevant to me. I'd be looking closely at the PRO12 teams that do successfully rotate a bigger squad and compete well on both fronts. How are they mixing youth with experience and doing enough to beat both weaker and stronger teams using their resources efficiently.

But building a squad with such strength in depth takes years. Clermont have done it with big financial backing and great signings. Leinster have done it with a super academy and a huge catchment area of about 2 million people, and fewer foreign signings.

I think English teams wouldn't find it quite so easy to hold onto so many good players, with other English sides, as well as French trying to lure them away. I think the salary cap is holding their biggest teams back a bit at the top level. Their whole setup is more similar to the French than to ours. So the Clermont approach might be a better fit for English teams with HC ambitions. Under the salary cap they can't take the Clermont approach even if they could afford it.

Those teams that have been sucessful in the HC have generally had a high concentration of current international test players in their side. What makes Leinster slightly different is how few games their first team play in their league. That is a credit to their second team and a reflection on the rest of the R12 squads.

The french and english club heirarchies (not their Unions) have indicated they have tolerated the other NH nations not having their own leagues and consolidating elite players in 2/3 sides and are no longer prepared to do so. There has only been one AP side that has competed in the last 5 HC competitions which shows the competition and allows access to the top European competition to fans across the country, Exeter are a good example.

The current English internationals have quite unusually been selected evenly from 4/5 sides and hence with additional injury rates cannot compete on the number of current internationals from one test side in some of the R12 sides. The international game is a very different game from the league game. Robshaw made 15 league appearances for Quins - that will probably catch up with him eventually. The argument that why should teams flog their players is a valid one but if the financial imperative is different then inevitably both sides of the argument attempt to flex economic muscle.

I do wonder if the straw that broke the camels back for the French clubs, was the Edinburgh Toulouse game (which I attended) where the Toulouse backs were mainly missing and the replacements played poorly against a first pick Edinburgh franchise.

I have said before that the Aussie cricket model which was copied by the ARU on the basis that they didnt have enough players led to NZ and SA abandoning their clubs and consolidating players into franchises in order to offer contracts and control their best players centrally, has led to the NH copying this and being fundamentally opposite to the bottom up privately owned club structure with wider access for all fans. That is fundamentally what the debates about the composition of the HC boil down to and is probably unresolvable.

beshocked wrote:Saracens seem as strange example of a side allegedly with rubbish strength in depth.

Ok no team competes with Leinster but to say Saracens strength in depth is poor is strange to say the least.

Yes Saracens were awful in the AP weren't they. Winning more games than all sides in the AP bar Quins. 2nd/3rd highest contingents of players away in the world cup and 6 nations.

Who is in Leinster's backrow if you strip them of O Brien and Heaslip?

You really need to stop being so defensive. At no point did I say Sarries had rubbish strength in depth. As McCall was discussing the problems they had faced I chose them. Equally I could have chosen Quins or Saints who also will have used a small number of players a lot. Sarries made 3rd spot in AP and 1.4 finals in HC, but were hampered by using the same players so often.

LondonTiger I agree to a certain extent.

I feel that my team,Saracens are making way too many excuses - blaming the salary cap and having to balance three competitions.

Leinster do it all just fine. They are the team to emulate in all aspects.

I would also say that English teams in general rely on individual players too much. The lesson is that we need to rotate more IMO.

At Saracens there's no proper replacement for Barritt at 12.

At FB Goode is taking all the burden but Ransom should be being blooded.

I am worried that talented players like J.George and B.Spencer aren't getting enough opportunities. Very difficult for both though as 2 and 9 are certainly areas of strength.

Normally English club only build up depth during injury and call up periods.


The Saracens squad for next season doesn't look too bad:

Props:Saunders,Vunipola,Stevens,Nieto,Du Plessis,Gill
Hookers:Brits,Smit,George,Spurling
Locks:Botha,Hargreaves,Borthwick,Kruis,Jubb,Sherriff
Backrow:Burger,Brown,Saull,Fraser,Wray,Melck
Scrum halves:De Kock,Wigglesworth,Spencer,Baldwin
Fly Halves:Hodgson,Farrell,Mordt
Centres:Barritt,Stanley,Tomkins,Ratuvou,Powell
Wingers:Short,Strettle,Ashton,Maddock,Taylor
Full Backs:Goode,Wyles,Ransom


Sam Stanley could be one to watch in the centres if he doesn't pick up yet another horrific injury.

Need the youngsters Saunders and Vunipola to step up in the frontrow.

Need the youngsters Saunders and Vunipola to step up in the frontrow

Vunipola has looked good when I've seen him play this season. Not sure why Sarries don't use him more often really. Spencer is developing nicely at Sarries, similar player to Wigglesworth but I agree with you that English teams tend to really only blood players during the LV Cup and international windows. A bit more rotation would be a good idea but I suppose that is a risk as the Jeff is very competitive at the moment, as displayed by the last weekend of the season where there was only one dead rubber game (which turned into a score fest with a massive punch up, clearly no one had told the players).

Personally I'm hoping the RFU's financial incentives will encourage clubs into greater rotation over the next couple of years so that squad power is built up. Tigers have always prided themselves on squad power but they've let it slip a bit in recent years and so have several other clubs, yes the cap is restricting them and yes the French and Japanese cash infused leagues are buying up a lot of the top talent but that shouldn't limit the ambition of the AP clubs.

Sam Vunipola has been injured for most of the season - hence why he hasn't been used much but yes I agree. He's a big lad too.

True. The only way these youngsters will step up is if you try them.

Look at Wales - they picked the likes of Faletau,North,Warburton and Halfpenny and are reaping the benefits.

England have so many talented players - we need to see more of them.

Harlequins have done an particularly excellent job backing the young guns.

True. The only way these youngsters will step up is if you try them

Got to agree on that one. Thankfully Tigers have started doing a bit more of that this season (not that they had much choice) so we should see some more depth next year. Though we're still a tad light in certain areas but with the cap the youngsters there will have to step up.

first choice/second choice 23

1.Ayerza / Stankovitch
2.Chuter / Hawkins
3.Cole / Brookes
4.Deacon / Slater
5.Parling / Kitchener
6.Croft / de Carpienter
7.Salvi / Woods
8.Crane / Waldrom
9.Youngs / Young
10.Flood / Ford
11.Benjamin / Hamilton
12.Allen / Forsyth
13.Manu / Smith
14.Thompstone / Lewington
15.Murphy / Morris

16.T Youngs / Stevens
17.Mulipola / Harris
18.Castro / Bower
19.Mafi / Andrews
20.Newby / Albon
21.Harrison / Steele
22.Bowden / Lynn
23.Goneva / Symons

I will compare too:

1st choice/ 2nd choice

1.Gill / Saunders
2.Brits/ George
3.Nieto / Du Plessis
4.Borthwick / Hargreaves
5.Botha / Sherriff
6.Brown/Melck
7.Burger/Fraser
8.Joubert/ Wray
9.De Kock/ Spencer
10.Hodgson /Mordt
11.Strettle /Short
12.Barritt /Stanley
13.Powell /Tomkins
14.Ashton / Maddock
15.Goode / Ransom

16.Stevens /Auterac
17.Vunipola /??
18.Smit /Spurling
19.Kruis /Jubb
20.Saull /Hankin
21.Wigglesworth /Baldwin
22.Farrell /Ratuvou
23.Wyles /Taylor

beshocked

Do you think Sarries will drop Farrell to the bench next season? I do agree as Powell is a good outisde centre but just cant see it happening.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:beshocked

Do you think Sarries will drop Farrell to the bench next season? I do agree as Powell is a good outisde centre but just cant see it happening.

Like most AP sides, they need to look at rotating players, units to keep people fresh and to alternate playing styles. It would make much more sense for Sarries to alternate Hodgson and Farrell than playing Farrell at 13. I reckon McCall is tough enough to do that.

Healy-Van Der Merwe-McGrath
Strauss-Cronin-Not sure actually
Ross-White-Hagan
Cullen-Toner
Thorn-Browne
McLaughlin-Ruddock
SOB-Jennings-Ryan
Heaslip-Avauv'a
Reddan-Boss-Cooney
Sexton-Madigan-Berquist
Fitzgerald-Carr
Darcy-McFadden-Sheridan
O'Driscoll-O'Malley-Macken
Nacewa-Conway
Kearney-Kearney Jr

That is serious depth some of our second string guys are serious players like Cronin, Van Der Merwe, Toner, Jennings, Boss, McFadden

I agree with LondonTiger that Farrell needs to alternate with Hodgson at 10.

I hope Mccall does realise that Farrell's best position is 10 and stick with it

Manu In regards to Powell he is who I would pick at 13 but I have heard and get the impression he is out of favour with Mccall for whatever reason.

I believe the 13 shirt is really up for grabs.

Joel Tomkins with pre season training should certainly feature as the big convert gamble. Also there's young Sam Stanley who has been wrecked with horrific injuries but should be back too.

Also there's Kameli Ratuvou whose status I don't know.

IMO the Barritt-Powell combo works well though.

beshocked wrote:

IMO the Barritt-Powell combo works well though.

2010 GP final I thought they were both outstanding. I think Powell is a really good club centre much like Fraser Waters. I hope Mccall gives him a chance.

IMO the Barritt-Powell combo works well though

It was a highlight of the Sarries 2009/10 campaign with both complementing the teams attack intent and aggressive defence nicely.

I still wonder whether it would be worth giving Alex Goode a go at 13, he certainly has the speed and footwork and if young Ransom is pushing on it would make room for him at fb with the steadying presence of Wyles on the wing or Wyles at fb with Strettle and Short on the wings.

Sam you forgot about Ashton

Not sure about Goode as a 13. I suppose almost every other player has been tried so why not?

Sam, in that first team you put up who goes to FB is Murphy gets injured? Do you know if Goneva or Thompstone can play there?

I think Goode and Ashton will work well together on the counter-attack. But it will be very interesting to see how he does next season. I am slightly more optimistic for him now he has found some form. Him trying to find form in a normally conservative and new team would have been hard.

killer938 wrote:Sam, in that first team you put up who goes to FB is Murphy gets injured? Do you know if Goneva or Thompstone can play there?

I have a niggle in the back of my mind that Bowden may have had some time at FB, maybe before he joined LI

Ok, that and hooker seem to be where we are shortest in terms of depth at the moment, really need to find someone to replace Murphy long term if Tait can't get fit.

Ok, that and hooker seem to be where we are shortest in terms of depth at the moment, really need to find someone to replace Murphy long term if Tait can't get fit.

Yeah I would have said shove Bowden to 15 in an emergency. I'd actually forgotten about Tait because we've seen so little of him, really hope he is up to playing a part next season as his attacking skills would slot in nicely. Morris is solid fb cover and Hamilton can do a job there.

I can't make up my mind on Lewington. I thought previously he would be the guy to make the 15 shirt his own in a few years but then he went off the boil following his great academy form and I thought his release was imminent. He started playing on the wing more for the A League team and Notts and started finding the try line again and in the LV Cup he was excellent. Now I'm wondering whether he will be moved to fb again as he's found a bit of form and is not in line for the kind of winger Cockers seems to favour (he has the pace but isn't 6 foot plus and over 16 stone).

Yeh, I havent seen a lot of him but was impressed with him against Bath in the LV, hopefully he can get some game time and full back as well. I don't know what the status of Tait is at the moment but it would be great to get him back. Otherwise the strength in depth is looking good, I just wonder how long we can keep both Ford and Flood. Ford is only 19 so Flood prob has a couple more years of having Ford seen as an understudy but I would say that is it, after that I can't see either of them being happy to be 2nd choice and we are going to have to make a decision. Flood isnt exactly old himself of course.

I think with Flood playing internationally next season Ford should get the 6N, AI and LV Cup games which would be about 20 appearences if he featured in them all. Then there's the games where Flood is injured (he picks up at least one injury per season) so more game time there. That should work well for the next year or two. By the time Ford hits 21 then Flood will be 29 and it might get awkward then as Ford will be overtaking Flood and Flood might choose to leave rather than play second fiddle.

For the next couple of years it should be good though. Only slight worry is that Ford only has a one year contract.

Yeh I know, I would be very disappointed if the club didn't do everything in its power to get him a new contract though and as long as he buys into Cockerill's way of bringing him through over the next couple of years then I would hope that he would want to stay. If by the time he is 21 he isn't being picked as first choice then I would understand him leaving but I would hope they have a plan in place for him and with him starting the semi final, I think it shows that they have lot of faith in him already.

He does seem well grounded. He turned down moves to Sale and LI to sign the one year deal with Tigers so he obviously values his time there. Tigers did make him the youngest player to play in a professional game so he must be aware the club have big plans for him.

Let's hope he only signed a one year deal so that he could establish himself in the first team and then sign a better contract next year and set himself up as a Tiger long term.

LondonTiger wrote:With 158 Rabo starts, ulster are halfway between Leinster and Sarries.

Ulster had more players at the World Cup so the comparison is not an accurate one.

As I have said elsewhere I reckon Ulster are on a par with Tigers and Saracens and I know some have taken up the challange for us to test this next year.

Ulster had more players at the World Cup so the comparison is not an accurate one.

More than Leinster? Only joking. How many did Ulster have out of interest, Sarries may well have had more away than you think (Sarries were a bit lucky as some weren't first choice players).

No more than Saracens.
I think we had 10 which I read somewhere was the 3rd highest after Treviso and Leinster.

I assume the figure is based upon a calcualtion on who the 1st XV were and seeing how many names they played.
What about injuries/other reasons for unavailability ?

We did not play a 1st XV full back for 2 months.
That wasn't resting players that was player unavailability - we still played the best player available.