MLF

What is happening to this kid? He looked totally overweight and is now slower than when he was 17. Where has his talent gone? Up in smoke?

azania wrote:What is happening to this kid? He looked totally overweight and is now slower than when he was 17. Where has his talent gone? Up in smoke?

MLF did have great promise - but I personally think that a combo of factors haven't helped his career, including his own personal life and attitudes. Have seen him out and about in Birmingham [ giving something away there! ] and weren't impressed by what I saw i.e the 'crew' he hangs with...But then, may be, I'm expecting too much and not giving him a due break

He also had a sub10 clocking not ratified many years back [ due to faulty wind guage, if I remember correctly ] - this was in a heat going through the rounds at a Worlds or Olympics, many years back. He's never lived up to that potential. Perhaps if that sub10 clocking been ratified, it may have spurred him on - who knows?!

He should leave Christie's camp and try out with the jamaicans. He needs to lose weight also. Talent is still there but application is lacking.

Aha - The MLF question makes its annual appearance. Obviously the track season is almost on us.

To precis (because the discussion has been done to death on numerous occaisions)
I think it goes like this

1. MLF, like many black athletes of Carib descent becomes a fully-grown man at let's say 15 (and if don't believe that look at any u17 athletics match)
2. Armed with great talent and pre-natural gifts of physical development allied with the confidence of youth MLF progresses smoothly through the ranks
3. Trains pretty hard and runs a very impressive 10.04 at 19. Fantastic prospect?
4. Trains harder lifts more weights, puts on weight, runs slower. Tries harder, gets injured more, has time off, puts weight on etc etc
5. Has reached his physical peak at 19 and doesn't 'train on'?
6. Check out many many black athletes who have done this. Jamaica was famous for its junior athletes who never made it at senior level (no jamaican olympic medalist for 35 years until Bolt)

Why doesn't MLF train like the jamaicans you ask?
1. It's very, very hard. Made a little easier by the ingestion of industrial amounts of performance enhancing drugs admitedly, but still hard.
2. For my money MLF has realised this and rather than go the super-hard clean route (almost impossible in my view) or succumb to drug-taking he has just gone with the flow and picked up his money. It's not a bad life after all. How many of you critics are world junior champions or olympic gold medallists anyway?

english,

1. There are many many athletes of caribean descent that are still growing/maturing into their 20's.
2. MLF didn't get the right coaching and mentoring. He'll admit that himself. Thus his change of coach later on in his career.

lol... and now you accuse a whole nation of drug abuse again??? Yet you are not a racist? how can that be???

english, i have to tell you this. But your arguments have so many holes in them and so rife with your twisted way of thinking that their is no point in even responding to your insulting posts any more.

I don't understand the angle you are coming from but something must have really hurt you in your early life to have come up with these opinions. You are so wrong, and i just hope that nobody listens to you, for their safety.

racist played card in line 6
anything that you can't or won't understand is racist is it?
are you hoping that playing that card will quell any discussion regarding cheating?
as i said in the gatlin thread when you try and insinuate the same to DJ it's just cowardly, stupid and obviously lazy.
Without having to educate you yet again, and if you had read anything about athletics history you would already know that
1. Black and white uk athletes cheated heavily in the late 70's and eighties
2. White East German athletes were on a state sponsored ped regime in the same period (documented by themselves)
3. White and black US athletes were heavily into ped abuse throughout this period and much later, right up to Balco (almost all black in the latter case)
4. Chinese female long/middle distance runners were obviously drugged in the late 80's 90's
5. Jamaicans are doing it now

There you go, just a taste of the wide spread of ped corruption that takes in Europeans both black and white, Americans both black and white and the Chinese. I won't even go into the state-sponsored drugging by the kenyans and ethiopians if that upsets you

So, before you accuse me or anybody else of racism why not get your facts right you silly little boy?

lol... you are so funny english. Just read your post again please. i am in hysterics. please teach me more, oh wise one. lol

english_osprey wrote:Aha - The MLF question makes its annual appearance. Obviously the track season is almost on us.

To precis (because the discussion has been done to death on numerous occaisions)
I think it goes like this

1. MLF, like many black athletes of Carib descent becomes a fully-grown man at let's say 15 (and if don't believe that look at any u17 athletics match)
2. Armed with great talent and pre-natural gifts of physical development allied with the confidence of youth MLF progresses smoothly through the ranks
3. Trains pretty hard and runs a very impressive 10.04 at 19. Fantastic prospect?
4. Trains harder lifts more weights, puts on weight, runs slower. Tries harder, gets injured more, has time off, puts weight on etc etc
5. Has reached his physical peak at 19 and doesn't 'train on'?
6. Check out many many black athletes who have done this. Jamaica was famous for its junior athletes who never made it at senior level (no jamaican olympic medalist for 35 years until Bolt)

Why doesn't MLF train like the jamaicans you ask?
1. It's very, very hard. Made a little easier by the ingestion of industrial amounts of performance enhancing drugs admitedly, but still hard.
2. For my money MLF has realised this and rather than go the super-hard clean route (almost impossible in my view) or succumb to drug-taking he has just gone with the flow and picked up his money. It's not a bad life after all. How many of you critics are world junior champions or olympic gold medallists anyway?

I haven't read a more racist post in a very long time.

Are you off to Ukraine soon?

You do realise that just because a post mentions race, it doesn't actually mean the post is racist, even if you don't agree with it.

If you'd seen club athletics at an under 17 level, you'd understand exactly what he was talking about.

There are obviously exceptions to the rule, but on the whole, it's absolutely right. Men vs boys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DahkwAsth-o

MLF got comfortable being Billy Big Balls in Birmingham. Big fish small pond. Completely up his own 'arris by all accounts.

djlovesyou wrote:You do realise that just because a post mentions race, it doesn't actually mean the post is racist, even if you don't agree with it.

If you'd seen club athletics at an under 17 level, you'd understand exactly what he was talking about.

There are obviously exceptions to the rule, but on the whole, it's absolutely right. Men vs boys.

Is there any scientific evidence or its just visual stuff wrapped up as fact?

This is hardly just a black thing. Plenty of sportsmen and women of all races mature early, Norman Whiteside was a man at 16, looked like he would be a superstar but it never happened as his advantages all levelled out. It happens in swimming as well, a sport full of teenage prodigies, all of them usually huge, some of whom go on to make the grade and have long careers, many dont. Not too many black swimmers about.
Re MLF you'd have to say his body shape actually changed but Im not convinced he could have ever trimmed down to become a Maurice Greene shape even if he really tried hard, some people are just made differently to others.

Particularly in America, if you're a black 14 year old who's tall, strong and athletic - what are the chances you're going to join the swim team?

The lack of black swimmers is purely cultural.

As for scientific evidence of early development of black children, it's well documented that afro-carribbean kids enter puberty earlier than white kids generally speaking. If you add in the greater propensity for increased muscularity in people with a West African background, I feel the men vs boys analogy is completely fair.

You have kind of missed my point, probably my fault for not making it clear, I was simply saying that regardless of race this is a common occurence in all sports. Swimming was an example.....full of whites and the ones who excel at juniors are those that develop earlier. I wasnt saying that any of your arguments were not valid, just that it happens a lot with whites as well.
Thats said possibly the two greatest junior sprint talents we have produced, Jodie Williams and Christian Malcolm, both of them skinny as a rake as kids. Its a shame Malcolm didnt develop a bit more physically maybe.

Skinny as rakes maybe, but with very defined and developed muscularity.

Jodie looked like an under 20 when she was dominating the under 15s.

When I saw Williams race this winter she looked like she had grown a bit height wise, not sure if this is the case ? Has she ran outdoors this summer yet do you know ?

Nothing since the world indoors - hopefully see her soon.

Diggers - I used black teenage athletes as an example because we were talking about MLF

I have no experience of swimming but I am sure you are correct

Similarly in rugby, entire junior games can be and often are dominated by prodigiously massive (white) children. However when they reach 16 or 17 you tend to find that most players are of a similar size and so technique counts more than physicality

In junior sprinting it's all about physicality and power. Therefore, DJ put it better than me, it suits the more physicaly developed.ie those further along the path of puberty. That is surely obvious? And that's what I think the MLF situation revolves around.

azania - i really take offence at your PC wittering. What exactly did i say that was racist?
Do you think it's racist to suggest that west african/carib sprinters have a physical advantage over their rivals? If they don't have a natural advantage then how do you explain their total dominance of world sprinting?
Do you think it's just a coincidence that virtually all sub 10.00 times are by sprinters of west african origin?

djlovesyou wrote:Particularly in America, if you're a black 14 year old who's tall, strong and athletic - what are the chances you're going to join the swim team?

The lack of black swimmers is purely cultural.

As for scientific evidence of early development of black children, it's well documented that afro-carribbean kids enter puberty earlier than white kids generally speaking. If you add in the greater propensity for increased muscularity in people with a West African background, I feel the men vs boys analogy is completely fair.

So its a feeling but not fact?

english_osprey wrote:Diggers - I used black teenage athletes as an example because we were talking about MLF

I have no experience of swimming but I am sure you are correct

Similarly in rugby, entire junior games can be and often are dominated by prodigiously massive (white) children. However when they reach 16 or 17 you tend to find that most players are of a similar size and so technique counts more than physicality

In junior sprinting it's all about physicality and power. Therefore, DJ put it better than me, it suits the more physicaly developed.ie those further along the path of puberty. That is surely obvious? And that's what I think the MLF situation revolves around.

azania - i really take offence at your PC wittering. What exactly did i say that was racist?
Do you think it's racist to suggest that west african/carib sprinters have a physical advantage over their rivals? If they don't have a natural advantage then how do you explain their total dominance of world sprinting?
Do you think it's just a coincidence that virtually all sub 10.00 times are by sprinters of west african origin?

Before Bannister broke the 4 minute mile scientists were also saying that blacks did not have the stamina or durability for endurance running. Then the east africans blew that theory out of the water. Scientists then said they had an advantage because of where they came from. Then Said Aouita came and blew that theory followed by a plethora of North African Arab runners.

Have scientists measured the throwing arm of Scandinavian javelin throwers to see why they generally seem to throw the javelin further than most others?

Linford Christie said that if whites continually believe that they are genetically inferior then they will never be good. Lets hope Christophe blows that theory out of the water and others follow suit. Maybe there are these fast twitch muscles in Chinese and Japanese sprinters also.

"Before Bannister broke the 4 minute mile scientists were also saying that blacks did not have the stamina or durability for endurance running"

which scientist said this?

east african middle/long distance runners have a physical advantage in that the best of them are generally born and train at altitude. What else explains their total dominance of the sport?

west africans also have a physical advantage at sprinting. Again a question you didn't answer. If they don't have a physical advantage what else explains their enormous dominance?

don't get me wrong, i don't care if they have these physical advantages, they still have to train hard to succeed and good luck to them. However to deny that they have a physical advantage in the first place is simply wrong. why you want to deny it i'm not sure perhaps you could elucidate?

"Maybe there are these fast twitch muscles in Chinese and Japanese sprinters also.."
Yeah right thats why they have never won an olympic/world individual sprint medal between them. In fact no Asian man from a population of 4 billion has ever won an olympic sprint (100/200/400) medal of any colour. Whereas jamaica (pop 2.7 million) has three of the four fastest men of all time.

Linford christie is a proven drug cheat why would you believe anything
he says, especially something as fatuous as that?

Christophe (the only sub 10.00 time out of billions of non west-africans) will not blow any theory out of any water anytime soon. Trust me.

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I saw a documentary with Tim Hutchins when he went to train with the Kenyans. In the commentary, they showed images of Bannister and the commentator said what I said above. One thing about this docu was that Hutchins left early because he couldn't keep to the training regime the Kenyans adopted. Even when they trained at Teddington, they were fearsome trainers.

Yes training at altitude helps. But what helps also is their diet. High in corn and carbs. But what of the North African arabs. They weren't born in the rift valley. Or the Ethiopians. What it is is that for east africans, distance running is part of their culture. Likewise javelin is a national sport in Scan countries.

After Said did what he did, you had a multitude of North African runners wanting to emulate him. Likewise when Coe and Ovett were dominating, Cram came up, Richardson (the scot) Peter Elliot all followed. That Scot 800m runner also.

West Africans are not a uniform people either. In Nigeria for example, you get vast differences between the people there. From the tall, angular Hausa people in the north and the shorter people in the south. Yet there are no distance runners. But loads of sprinters. That's because distance running is not part of the national psyche whereas sprinting is. I imagine is a distance runner does great things from west Africa, more will follow.

Athletics is not a national sport in the orient. Why do you get more world class judo players from Japan that anywhere else? And more table tennis players from China? I dare say that now Liu has done wonders in the 110m hurdles, more fast chinese hurdlers will follow in time and inevitably the 100m sprinters will emerge.

Its only the past 25 years that the 10sec barrier has been broken with any regularity. I dare say that if Marian Voronin had the same facilities as now, he too would be a sub 10 runner and the eastern euro sprinters like Bortzof would have done the same.

So Christie is a proven drugs cheat. Ergo everything he says is rubbish. When I was a kid I nicked a bar of chocolate from a sweet shop. Everything I say is carp. Bill Clinton inhaled.....!

Josef K. wrote:MLF got comfortable being Billy Big Balls in Birmingham. Big fish small pond. Completely up his own 'arris by all accounts.

Kind of makes sense - have seen him out and about in Birmingham, and wasn't impressed by him and his 'crew'...kind of explained a hell of a lot really [ sadly ]...

SJ

I appreciate what you're saying, and it's a really cutesy way of looking at the world. It's nonsense though, sadly.

Nobody is saying that if you're born in West Africa you're going to be a rubbish distance runner and an amazing sprinter, but that it's a numbers game.

You're much more likely to have the propensity to sprint well due to the higher numbers of people who have the correct body type for sprinting. Same with East Africans and distance running. You get far more Kalenjin with slight bodies and skinny calves.

Skill sports like table tennis can be forgotten about, not relevant to the discussion. That's totally nurture rather than nature.

Why are the fastest 10 sprinters of all time IN THE UK of West African descent? Are the clubs failing white sprinters? Do white people just not work hard enough? Could it be that athletes of a West African descent are just more likely to have the correct muscle make-up to run fast times? Surely not, that would be racist. This is in a country where people of West African descent are a very small minority in both the overall population and indeed the athletic population.

It's the same with Kenyans - just more likely to have the correct body type along with a likelyhood to take up the sport. But given the huge popularity of distance running in Kenya, how come 95% of all their international medallists come from one tribe which only comprises 12% of the population? Are the other 88% just too lazy? Don't eat right? Or could it be something else?

As for the North Africans - good chance of the correct body type, a propensity to take up the sport. Oh, and lots and lots and lots of PEDs. Including Aouita - he was a pioneer.

Oh this is great. Great to see indeed! English-osprey is up to his bully tactics as usual. Spouting utter rubbish and then trying to nit pick at other people's arguments and then trying to belittle them at the same time. Talking utter nonsense as usual with no point or fact at all, only small minded opinion of yesteryear.

This is why this forum has died. It has died because of people's strong differing views, unbending opinions, inability to listen/read other people's points of view, let alone understand them. Then the crazy decisions to just start attacking other posters rather than to politely debate the points made.

It is impossible to have a civilised debate with english-osprey. As he will not listen or even fathom anything you write. Or am i wrong, hey english? You're not very english really, as if you were you'd be polite and civilised.

How about we let by gones be by gones and call a nice truce, and discuss things nicely? Without the little insults?

The forum died because the admin team decided to chase lsabre out when he was doing an excellent job of moderation. Nothing to do with what you said.

The arguments only started this time because you started playing the race card every time someone disagreed with you.

oh dj just stop it you are spoiling me.

I really didn't play the 'race' card; as you call it, for the reasons you mention. I used it for genuine reasons, because whole nations were being accused of taking drugs. People can't just say that one nation is a bunch of cheats - that is racist comment. It is an incredibly naive statement to make.

It is also a very negative remark to make about a sport that we all love. i don't believe a person can be a true fan of athletics and make such statements.

So to be a true fan of the sport we have to pretend that there isn't a problem?

I think we can't just jump to conclusions. We have to trust the system, trust the facts without prejudice and judgement.

It is up the authorities to do their part. People can have opinion on these matters, but to go around spreading such negative stuff like it was proven fact will do far more damage to the sport than any good.

Any new comer to these forums/sport will read these negative comments and think the worst. Even though it is unproven.

The benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty.

djlovesyou wrote:I appreciate what you're saying, and it's a really cutesy way of looking at the world. It's nonsense though, sadly.

Nobody is saying that if you're born in West Africa you're going to be a rubbish distance runner and an amazing sprinter, but that it's a numbers game.

You're much more likely to have the propensity to sprint well due to the higher numbers of people who have the correct body type for sprinting. Same with East Africans and distance running. You get far more Kalenjin with slight bodies and skinny calves.

Skill sports like table tennis can be forgotten about, not relevant to the discussion. That's totally nurture rather than nature.

Why are the fastest 10 sprinters of all time IN THE UK of West African descent? Are the clubs failing white sprinters? Do white people just not work hard enough? Could it be that athletes of a West African descent are just more likely to have the correct muscle make-up to run fast times? Surely not, that would be racist. This is in a country where people of West African descent are a very small minority in both the overall population and indeed the athletic population.

It's the same with Kenyans - just more likely to have the correct body type along with a likelyhood to take up the sport. But given the huge popularity of distance running in Kenya, how come 95% of all their international medallists come from one tribe which only comprises 12% of the population? Are the other 88% just too lazy? Don't eat right? Or could it be something else?

As for the North Africans - good chance of the correct body type, a propensity to take up the sport. Oh, and lots and lots and lots of PEDs. Including Aouita - he was a pioneer.

Sport is seen as a way out for many black kids. They work hard and is hugely popular (sprinting). Its cheap also. Ask yourself why you dont get many black tennis players, golfers, sailors, rowers etc etc etc. But sports like b-ball, NFL blacks are disproportionally involved?

I have trained with many sprinters back in the day at new River Sports centre with Harringey. Jon Ridgeon trained there but left because it was black dominated. No disrespect to Jon, lovely guy and hugely popular with the team. But it wasn't for him.

But if you know sprinting, you will know that running a PB is 50% mental. Hence why Powell fails at the big events. Now you tell a kid that he will not make it because he has the wrong muscle grouping because of his melanin content, s/he will fail before s/he starts. Its like back in the day when school teachers wee telling blacks that they shouldn't aim high. Guess what? Blacks didn't aim high. Not because of lack of ability, but because of an inferiority complex built in which is now being eradicated.

Aouita never failed a test so its kind of libellous to brand him a cheat. Hitchem and Morcelli all cheats? Spare me and quit the patronising tone.

Ok. No answers for the Kenyan question. No answers for the reason why a very small population of the UK population (and the UK athletics population) take up the top 10 spots in the 100m all time list.

Just nonsense about 'running a PB is 50% mental'? What does that even mean? It has nothing to do with Powell - we know what he's capable of.

Nobody is telling these white kids that they're not going to make it. My club has very few black athletes, so therefore the white sprinters don't have any worries in terms of comparing their abilities. Why aren't they running 9.75?

Sprinting is nearly all natural talent. It's a fallacy to suggest otherwise. If a 15 year old (in decent shape) isn't running sub 11 seconds for the 100m, they're never going to run sub 10. (and that's possibly conservative). It has nothing to do with being told they're not going to make it.

Marion Jones never failed a test either - not failing tests has absolutely no bearing on whether someone cheated or not. All Hicham's training partners (and coach) got busted - anyone who knows anything about the sport knows about Morocco. It's a bit of a joke. Aouita got sacked from his Australia job for telling his athletes that they couldn't win without drugs.

azania and djlovesyou... your posts both make sense, but you seem to arrogantly ignore each others points of view. Instantly dismissing each others point of view as wrong without thinking.

DJ

The Kenyan question? Its a tradition for those born within the rift valley. TYes being born and raised at altitude given them a benefit. But not a benefit that cannot be levelled out by others training at altitude. Its much similar to the Ghana boxers in which over 90% comes from a tiny village called Bokum just outside of Accra. Are they genetically predisposed to take up boxing or is it a tradition for the sons of fishermen to take up boxing as kids? Azumah Nelson, all the Cottey's and Klottey's hail from Bokum. All Ghana world champions have come from Bokum. Genetics? Nature or nurture?

Once again Aouta never tested positive. Unttil he does.....!

We all know what Powell is capable of doing. But he never does it when it matters. Why does he do that? Mental or physical? Standing next to a guy you know you will lose to means you most certainly will lose.

So why don't these white kids run fast when they're standing next to kids they think they'll probably beat and there's no pressure? Asafa manages it.

There are plenty of non-Kalenjin at altitude in the rift valley? Why are they not winning?

It's always amusing when someone comes along and dismisses genetics as a factor in sporting success. Is the only reason why a 5'2" guy isn't as likely to be as good at basketball as a 6'10" guy believing he can do it? (I guess you don't get hysterical over the mentioning of height in a post?)

Boxing is essentially a skill sport - facilities + coaching = results. It doesn't explain the fact that while guys from West African backgrounds completely dominate the world scene in sprinting, they come from all over the world. From the Carribbean, USA, UK, France, Portugal, Norway, Holland, West Africa itself of course.

The mental side of things only counts for that last few hundreths of a second, or delivering in a big final. Believing doesn't bring a 12.0 sprinter down to 11.0 - it's impossible. Sprinting is nearly all natural physical talent.

Because they do not believe they can run fast. In essense what you are saying is akin to evolutionary theories of human development. Nature over nurture. Almost that the kalenjin are better athletes because of biological determinism. Scientists may argue the case. Its easy to start an opinion with a hypothesis and find research to fit that hypothesis and pass it as biological fact.

The inverse is also true.

Boxing is a skill sports ok. But being an elite is also a mental sport insofar as if you don't believe that you are better than your opponent, invariably you will lose. That is elite sports in a nutshell.

So are the boxers from Bokum biologically predisposed to fight? A villiage with no more that 10,000 people produced over 90% of all Ghana boxers.

The mental side of things accounts for more than a few hundreths of a second. Take powell for example and look at when he finished 5th in the olympics and compare it to his PB. Somehwat more that 100th of a second I believe.

Primarily sprinting is natural talent. Harnessing that talent takes work. Winning takes work and self belief = mental strength. Powell works hard but lacks mental strength to win when he was the fastest. Wasn't he blown away by Gatlin and then Gay when favourite to win? He didn't even medal against Gatlin (juiced or not).

It has to be a combination of both genetics and 'nurture'.

Absolutely right about the 7 foot tall basketball player.

Taking it back to sprinting. Surely there will be the same/similar genetics in other places like China where there are over a billion people. The chances are that there will be someone with good genetics to become a sprinter. The odds are so heavily stacked that way. What they lack in China is the resources/availability to discover such talents or naturally gifted people.

They obviously have Lui Xiang, he can sprint. They have many other sprinters who can sprint to that level. But to take it to the sub 10 area. What does it take?

A lot more facilities/coaching/drive/training/social circumstances. Have a couple of generations of this and you'll develop something special.

We will see more hurdlers come from China soon, because they'll try and emulate their hero. But to completely saturate an area with one ethos to produce the best at an event. This will ultimately breed the best in the world at that.

ryanbailey wrote:It has to be a combination of both genetics and 'nurture'.

Absolutely right about the 7 foot tall basketball player.

Taking it back to sprinting. Surely there will be the same/similar genetics in other places like China where there are over a billion people. The chances are that there will be someone with good genetics to become a sprinter. The odds are so heavily stacked that way. What they lack in China is the resources/availability to discover such talents or naturally gifted people.

They obviously have Lui Xiang, he can sprint. They have many other sprinters who can sprint to that level. But to take it to the sub 10 area. What does it take?

A lot more facilities/coaching/drive/training/social circumstances. Have a couple of generations of this and you'll develop something special.

We will see more hurdlers come from China soon, because they'll try and emulate their hero. But to completely saturate an area with one ethos to produce the best at an event. This will ultimately breed the best in the world at that.

Individual genetics not group genetics.

Biological Darwinism is a flawed theory. First it was used to justify why blacks didn't have the stamina, speed etc to be the best. Now its being used to say that the playing field isn't level because blacks are genetically predicposed to certain types of sports (and whites in field events which do not require running). Its a nonsense imo. Basically trying to fit square pegs into round holes to get a desired outcome.

Some Southern Sudanese people are extremely tall. One can see how they can play basketball. But do they have the skill to dribble or shoot accurately? That takes skill. So although height is a requirement for basketball it is not always the case. Spud Webb was only 5'4" but was a NBA all star.

ryan

I realise what the problem is now. I am at fault in assuming that you are an adult and an athletics fan with at least a basic knowledge of athletics history.

I now accept that i was wrong on both accounts.
When i posted regarding a brief history of cheating in athletics to set your mind at rest regarding cheating and jamaica by pointing out that white and black uk athletes were drug cheats, white east germans were drug cheats, black and white us athletes were drug cheats and chinese athletes were drug cheats I (of course) had no reply.

I naturally assumed ignorance was to blame. Now i realise it's because you had no idea what i was talking about because you know absolutely nothing about athletics history. because you're only young (12 or 13?) probably the only track you've ever seen is constant jamaican success. Naturally your opinion of athletics is quite simple
1. athletics is great!
2 jamaicans always win!
When i suggest that jamaicans cheat but are only the latest in a very long line of drug cheays you are immediately mystified. China? Where's east germany? Two of your very favourite (only) ideas
1. athletics is clean and always has been!
2. black athletes especially jamaicans don't cheat!
are challenged and because you have no notion of the history of athletics you have no reference point to refer back to so you panic, get upset and call people who disagree with you names.

Do you remeber last years discussion regarding the ability to argue a point?
I put forward an idea with something to back it up. You put forward an idea and because you have no knowledge and you are too lazy to acquire any you don't bother with the back-up. Then you become aggressive when somebody questions your ill-thought out reasoning (see your gatlin shout at djlovesyou)

Do you honestly not see this? I don't think that you are a numbskull necessarily just the unfortunate by-product of a failing education system.

Perhaps you could try answering this without abuse? Better still you could try answering any one of the several points I have put to you in our various posts?

azania wrote:

Individual genetics not group genetics.

Biological Darwinism is a flawed theory. First it was used to justify why blacks didn't have the stamina, speed etc to be the best. Now its being used to say that the playing field isn't level because blacks are genetically predicposed to certain types of sports (and whites in field events which do not require running). Its a nonsense imo. Basically trying to fit square pegs into round holes to get a desired outcome.

Some Southern Sudanese people are extremely tall. One can see how they can play basketball. But do they have the skill to dribble or shoot accurately? That takes skill. So although height is a requirement for basketball it is not always the case. Spud Webb was only 5'4" but was a NBA all star.

So the reason why only one white person has ever broken 10 seconds in an event that is purely physical, is that they don't believe that they can? It defies belief that someone can even think this stuff.

Nobody is saying that being born in a certain country or with a certain background is going to make you better at certain sports. But sometimes you've got a better chance of doing so.

So these South Sudanese might not be very good at basketball. But have they got a better chance of being so than say some born in a tribe of pygmies?

Let's have a think now. Do you think Usain Bolt could have been as good at the 10000 as Kenenisa Bekele had he decided to train that way instead?

anzania

with the greatest respect, what are you wittering about?

are you a doctor of anthropology? if not what exactly are your credentials?

"Biological Darwinism is a flawed theory. First it was used to justify why blacks didn't have the stamina, speed etc to be the best"

where precisely does biological darwinism say this? can you point us to the article which you like to quote?


"Now its being used to say that the playing field isn't level because blacks are genetically predicposed to certain types of sports "

ditto the above

Also without drifting bizarrely off the point, table tennis players, basketball playing south sudanese? Can you categorically state that in your opinion that nature plays no part in the dominance displayed by black west-african sprinters?
If it doesn't, what does explain their domination?

two simple questions surely?

Dear oh dear.... english is showing himself up again... how pathetic.

english you've obviously got no knowledge of athletics. It is plain to see in your posts.

All you can do is type pathetic little insults that only seem to show you up for what kind of a person you are.

BTW, I was born in East Germany, so i do know where it is. I'm not sure what you have against many nations in this world, but you seem to have an unrivalled hatred for most nations. As clearly shown in some of your posts.

but what is more worrying is that you seem to hate athletics. You post no facts and only challenge other people's opinions with questions. How about you back your claims up with some solid facts and not prejudiced assumptions?

It is you that shouold go away, as you are unwanted on these forums. Your time is nearly up here my dear little baby son. I offered a truce, yet you are too foolish to accept it.

Are you suggesting that East Germany didn't have a problem with PEDs ryan? How about Russia? How about Greece? How about Morocco? How about the USA? How about Spain?

Am I prejudiced because I recognise which countries have had a serious problem in the past (and the present)?

Haha, admins getting worried that people might actually start using the athletics section again after they killed it.

djlovesyou wrote:Are you suggesting that East Germany didn't have a problem with PEDs ryan? How about Russia? How about Greece? How about Morocco? How about the USA? How about Spain?

Am I prejudiced because I recognise which countries have had a serious problem in the past (and the present)?

Hi dj,

No you're not being prejudiced. East Germany is well documented and proven. But one thing you can't say is that every athlete from there was cheating, as that would be prejudiced.

I think I can say that.

It was a government sponsored programme.

english_osprey wrote:anzania

with the greatest respect, what are you wittering about?

are you a doctor of anthropology? if not what exactly are your credentials?

"Biological Darwinism is a flawed theory. First it was used to justify why blacks didn't have the stamina, speed etc to be the best"

where precisely does biological darwinism say this? can you point us to the article which you like to quote?


"Now its being used to say that the playing field isn't level because blacks are genetically predicposed to certain types of sports "

ditto the above

Also without drifting bizarrely off the point, table tennis players, basketball playing south sudanese? Can you categorically state that in your opinion that nature plays no part in the dominance displayed by black west-african sprinters?
If it doesn't, what does explain their domination?

two simple questions surely?

Biological Darwinism is similar to Nazi theories of racial segregation which was came about through justification of slavery then colonialism. It was used to claim the superiority of one race over another. Jesse Owens blew that theory apart. Now imo, it is being used in an inverse way..to claim superiority over certain sporting events because of racial/biological determinism. It's flawed and untrue.

Haven't you heard of south sudanese b-ball players? Check out Chicago Bulls and England player who will represent UK in the Olympics. Quite a few sudanese have made it into the NBA.

In my opinion, if you have the talent, the rest is hard work. Ethnicity plays no part in the talent or hard work. That is my opinion.

Nobody is denying that if you have the talent, the rest is hard work.

But certain populations are more likely to have 'the talent'.

How hard is this to grasp?

That's the key. I dont buy into the theory that certain populations are genetically predisposed to one type of event.