McLaren's Achilles Heel?

With the season 6 races old, we've now had time to get an idea of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the cars and drivers.

One thing that has struck me on a few occasions (and was rammed home during the Monaco GP) is the way both Button and Hamilton are able to close right up to cars in front of them, only to get left for dead coming out of corners.

Having seen a fair bit of on-board footage, I've been surprised at how rapidly the Red Bulls, Mercedes and Lotus cars accelerate out of corners and have noticed the commentators have picked up on this. What really brought it home to me was watching Button's inability to pass Heikki Kovaleinen's Caterham. The ease with which this lowly, back-marker car pulled away from the supposedly far superior McLaren was quite shocking.

I've commented on another thread that McLaren (for the last few years, at least) seem to design their car for superior aerodynamic performance, which in theory at least (or so I assume) ought to make it more versatile and easier to set up for maximum performance at any circuit.

However, there seems to be a trend among other teams towards getting the maximum mechanical grip.

Aerodynamic downforce only works when the car is moving at speed, whereas mechanical grip works regardless of speed. I'm starting to think that McLaren's designs of late have been too heavily reliant on downforce and maximising straight-line speed, which leaves the cars vulnerable in slow corners and can make it harder to overtake on slower, high-downforce circuits (where the high downforce helps slow the car, but does little to help acceleration).

Thoughts? Could I be on to something here or am I talking out of my exhaust pipe?

What is quite obvious and has been clearly evident throughout this season is that McLaren has more than one achilles heel and to pinpoint the teams problems to just 'on track' issues with the car would be wrong.

I agree with regards to McLaren's focus on developing car's for straight-line speed for a number of years and that has enhanced by the power of the Mercedes engine. Add to the mix the F-Duct and it's paints a clear picture of what direction the team has gone down. Relate that to the most recent successful team in Red Bull and the direction they have gone with a less powerful engine and it soon becomes clear that McLaren need a re-think.

Martin Whitmarsh at the beginning of the season stated, 'this car has been designed with one lap pace in mind in an attempt to challenge Red Bull in qualifying'. The result has been extremely good qualifying pace as Hamilton has showed, however it seems to have come at a cost in terms of dire race pace, poor mechanical grip and not being too friendly with the most important element in F1 today, the tyres. Add to the fact the team has been litered with embarrasing, amateurish mistakes just adds to the big problems the team currently faces in an ever growing competitive championship where you can't get away with poor performances and hoping a rival will make them too.

I've noticed the traction problem at most of the races this season - mainly when Hamilton was coming out of a final corner on entry to a DRS zone and couldnt stick to the car in front and subsequently kept running out of road making it a waste of time. However up until yesterday I had only noticed it with Hamilton and not Button. But it does look like Monaco has amplified an inherent problem and thankfully most circuits require good aero.

Whats concerning me more at the moment is
1. The tyres - some cars come alive in either cold or hot conditions. Mclaren hates both.
And 2. Race strategy where they seem to be constantly getting out-smarted. Horner has always maintained that the team who understands best the tyres will prevail and Vettel either got lucky with 40 odd laps on softs or Red Bull have just made a huge step forward in that department coz nobody saw that one coming.

I have to disagree with Mr Dyrewolf on this subject.

Mclaren have always had a car that is high in mechanical grip. This is even more apparent in wet conditions when teams can't exploit the maximum from the aero parts.

Mclaren fans have nothing to worry about. The car is very good. It qualifies high up the grid and it has race pace. It can even overtake on the correct circuit.

It was a winner at Oz. Pit man sausage ups and bad desicions have cost it in other races and if Hamilton was not relegated for poor fuel management then lets just say that Maldonado would never have won that race in Spain.

Mclaren have got a decent car and arguably the best driver pairing on the grid. The crew is letting the drivers down.

Race tracks make cars behave in strange ways and Monaco could have just been a set up problem. Remember they weren't able to test the super softs with full tanks.

It's not like anyone managed an overtake on track so I wouldn't read much into that race. If you look at other races Hamilton and Button have managed overtakes very well. China in particular springs to mind.

The team just needs to buckle down and sort out the pitstops etc and they'll be fine.

I must say though Ferrari and RedBull have got their pitstops and strategy down to a tee. Mclaren could learn a thing or two from them

Belgarion of Riva wrote:Hamilton and Button have managed overtakes very well. China in particular springs to mind.

Hamilton was stuck behind Perez for a large chunk of the race in China because despite being up Perez' exhaust thru the lap less traction meant he kept losing ground at the vital point coming out of the corner onto the back straight. He was only released when Perez finally pitted but by then his tyes and his strategy were wrecked. However Button didnt have any such problems and managed to DRS quite easily (including Perez) so I put that one down to setup.

I must say though Ferrari and RedBull have got their pitstops and strategy down to a tee. Mclaren could learn a thing or two from them

Now that Mclaren are using the same type of nuts as RB and Ferrari I expect them to be just as quick going forwards. The pitstop at Monaco was only a fraction slower (and wasnt to blame for Hamis loss of position) which is already an improvement. The thing that puzzles me is they are using the new nuts on the rear tyres only.

SteveG wrote:I've noticed the traction problem at most of the races this season - mainly when Hamilton was coming out of a final corner on entry to a DRS zone and couldnt stick to the car in front and subsequently kept running out of road making it a waste of time. However up until yesterday I had only noticed it with Hamilton and not Button. But it does look like Monaco has amplified an inherent problem and thankfully most circuits require good aero.

Whats concerning me more at the moment is
1. The tyres - some cars come alive in either cold or hot conditions. Mclaren hates both.
And 2. Race strategy where they seem to be constantly getting out-smarted. Horner has always maintained that the team who understands best the tyres will prevail and Vettel either got lucky with 40 odd laps on softs or Red Bull have just made a huge step forward in that department coz nobody saw that one coming.

Agree with your first point...McLaren can't seem to get decent grip in cool conditions and suffer from high wear in hot weather. Definite "Goldilocks Syndrome" there - i.e. needs to be "just right".

As to your second point, RB more or less repeated their strategy for Vettel from last year, only in reverse, running a very long 1st stint, instead of 2nd stint. I agree that they do seem to have an edge over all the other teams when it comes to understanding how the tyres will work. They are also very good at coming up with winning strategies.

It all went wrong for Mclaren when the chose Hamilton over Fernando Alonso if you ask me.

I bet you anything if they had their time again with hindsight, they would of shipped out Hamilton and kept Alonso.

What are you on about Hamilton came into F1 and competed alongside Alonso and they finished with equal points and four wins apiece. Hamilton actually was classified higher as he compiled more second place finishes. It's not Hamilton's fault the McLaren car has been dire since 2007, Alonso would of struggled just as much as Hamilton has. How many titles has Alonso won since 2006???????

Yes Alonso's a world class driver and leading the title but he got many faults of his own which led to his downfall at McLaren.

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:It all went wrong for Mclaren when the chose Hamilton over Fernando Alonso if you ask me.

I bet you anything if they had their time again with hindsight, they would of shipped out Hamilton and kept Alonso.

Care to elaborate?

In my honest opinion, Alonso should have won the 2007 WDC. He clearly was not supported by his team at the time since he had to call in an FIA scrutinizing team. (This is for another day and another debate).

How many titles has Alonso won since 2007? That’s a good point. He has never been in a car that has got him near the summit. 90% of a WDC is the car. He has always driven second rate machinery since Mclaren. Even the Ferrari of 2010 was a distant 3rd behind the superior McLaren and Red Bulls of the same season.

I believe that had he continued to drive for Mclaren he would of won the 2008 and 2010 championship.

Don’t get me wrong, 2007 was a great time for Lewis. He can be proud of his achievement of tying with a driver of Alonso’s calibre. Lewis should of wrapped up the title in 2008 a lot earlier and less controversially but I feel his best days are behind him right now.

When was the last time that he gave the F1 fans a feeling of wow? China last year when he hunted down Vettel on his destroyed tyres? He appears to have gone off the boil since achieving his 2008 success. Is it his fault? The regulations fault? Who knows!

Alonso would not have let these opportunities pass him by. You can point to Abu Dhabi 2010 and say he bottled it, choked it, what ever, but at least he managed to get to the last race in a car that was never WCC/WDC material.

Mclaren must have looked enviously at him last year when the driver they selected was going through a bad patch and the driver they let go still managed to get astonishing results.

Hmmmm i agree with parts of your post and not others.

You cant say for sure if Alonso would have converted events into wins and WDCs and in regards to the team support i think he made a rod for his own back.

Lewis should have won 2008 in China, no doubt but an error going into the pits up a stop to that. Though it was the TEAM that kept him out so long on tyres that were waaaay passed worn out.

Every driver goes through good and pad periods. Last year Lewis had a bad year, a very bad year. But to say Mclaren must have looked envious because of that... why??? Look what he's achieved in the previous seasons.

This is just bringing up pointless arguments which we've seen time and time again. Basically someone gets bored during the two week break and they bring up old topics of debate. Friday needs to hurry up as far as i'm concerned.

@John

I am just debating what may have happened if Mclaren had kept one driver as opposed to the other, that’s all. I am not baiting or trolling or anything like that. Feel free to join in and debate but don’t just brush off others opinions. If not, see you Friday.

@CM

Very true, nothing is written as a definite and you are right, it does not give me the right to say that Alonso would have definitely won the WDC in 2008 & 2010 in those given Mclaren cars.

Since his Renault days (2008 & 2009) Fernando has grown as a driver and realised back then that taking wins is not as important as taking consistent points. Something Hamilton has finally realised and is trying to improve upon.

When Alonso left, Mclaren lost some key sponsor money and engineers that followed Alonso through the door for various reasons. Had he stayed and those sponsors and engineers remained then who knows what Mclaren may or may no of achieved, its pure speculation. But in my opinion I believe (rightly or wrongly) they would have achieved more.

As for Mclaren, they have been making stratagy man sausage ups, pit lane errors and team order messages for years. It is finally being truly scrutinized becasue of the rediculous amount of time TV companies have to fill before and after the race/quali. I would not feel to sorry for them as I remember them cheering as Ferrari mechanics chased Massa and the fuel cable down the pitlane in Singapore 2008. I'd just call it Karma and move on. Blaming Mr Whitmarsh is just wrong.

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:@John

I am just debating what may have happened if Mclaren had kept one driver as opposed to the other, that’s all. I am not baiting or trolling or anything like that.

But thats exactly what you are doing. I started this thread with the intention of examining McLaren's weaknesses on the technical side, having noticed Jenson's struggles at Monaco (and both drivers struggle to overtake in previous races).

You're the one who opened up the Hamilton v Alonso debate again...as you seem to do at every opportunity.

My 2 cents' worth is that they are very evenly matched drivers and if not for the fact Hamilton was a product of their driver programmes, who had been with them for 10 years or so, it would have been the toss of a coin as to who was kept on.

Then again maybe McLaren's decision was based on which driver they thought was the better team player. Unlike certain other drivers, Lewis is not afraid of a bit of competition and does not demand #1 status within the team.

Dyrewolf, I have given my reasons why I believe I disagree with your theory about mechanical grip in an earlier post on this thread.

I have then gone in to explain that Mclaren have numerous other problems as a team like team orders, pit stops, strategy errors.

All I have said is I believe when Alonso left and some key personnel and sponsors left with him making Mclaren poorer for it. Luckily they has the foundations for the 2008 car already but have been quite poor since then.

Maybe Mclarens fortunes would of been different had they opted to keep Alonso instead of Hamilton, who knows.

My point is just Mclaren have always had problems. They are more highlighted due to media having 3 hours of time to fill before and after races. I don't blame Martin Whitmarsh for any oh this either.

Pro Hamilton fans have a short memory about Mclaren sabotaging Lewis' race with bad calls and strategy during Whitmarshs era. What about China 2007 under Ron Dennis? Was that Whitmarshes fault? No. Same driver, different manager, bad call. Team orders for Alonso at Monaco in 07 and team orders for Hamilton in 2007s USA GP. Mclaren always make calls, sometimes bad, sometimes good. Just depends who you driver is.

At no point have I said one driver is better than another on this thread dyrewolf. Perhaps you should read posts rather than second guessing and looking for hidden meanings.

Erm if you watched the 07 review on the f1 channel recently you'd have been reminded that it was the team that kept him out. regardless of who was in charge it was the team at fault.

And no you haven't said one driver is better than another in THIS thread. but people know what you've said before and where your loyalty lies.

Can we please move on from the Lewis vs fernando debate.

Again, your are right CM, the team made the choices and the fans were not out to lynch Ron Dennis were they? It was a team call. Win as a team, loose as a team.

I don't understand the venom being directed towards Mr Whitmarsh. He was not at the wheel gun when the pit stops went wrong at early races. It's not his fault the safety car came out in Oz. it's not his fault Lewis' engineers did not keep Hamilton up to date at Monaco regarding rivals pace during pit phases.

Whitmarsh despite the calamity around him within the team is a very organised leader. His engineers need to follow his professional example.

Mclaren have a strong car this year and agree with Fernando Alonso when analysing the season so far... Hamilton is favourite for the title. Fernando is not stupid and knows how quick the Mclaren is this year.

I would even go so far and say Lewis will be the 7th winner in 7 races in a Mclaren 1-2 at Canada.

I agree with DW that this has gone completely off topic. It seems that Hamilton -v- Alonso is an ongoing (and endless) argument so why not start a dedicated thread or at least a 'drivers battles' thread for any driver(s).

But as its started heres my twopence worth (sorry DW):

Noone can argue that Hamilton had a shocker last season as he was distracted by his personal life whilst Alonso (as ever) remained totally focused on racing. However up until last season I believe that Hamilton has gotten the best out of any car given to him by Mclaren. Alonso would probably have done a similar job but in general no better.

The only point where I believe there is an argument could be 2010 where Hamilton trashed his car attempting to thread it past Massa at turn 3 in Monza. Had he not done that then he would probably have won the race - and without that frustration hanging over his head finished the race at Singapore and comfortably claimed his second WDC in what was the third fastest car for the majority of that season. However that said who is to say that Alonso would not have made different mistakes at different races. He has not been perfect at Ferrari by any means but whenever he makes a mistake (eg Monaco practice 2010) nobody jumps on it in quite the same way they do Hamilton. TBH Hamilton could and should have been a triple world champion by now and if so wouldnt be getting the stick he does by both fans and media alike.

At the end of the day its all assumptions and opinions. Nothing is fact and nothing can be proven. What is ironic however (and I'll admit I'm guilty of this) is that whilst team Hamilton and team Alonso are forever at logger heads the two drivers themselves seem to have nothing but the upmost respect for each other.

I think Lewis and Fernando have indeed got over their little disputes and moved on. If you watch them on the camera, they do talk and shake hands etc. I just dont think the British and certainly the Spanish fans have ever got over it. I know i have.... i showed more than a little dislike towards Alonso at the time. But now i quite like him, he moans sometimes and i dont like that he seems to get privilages over massa.

AC - i'd like to say i've been thinking the same. Lewis loves Montreal, the fans seem to like him. Its a great track and its where he got his first win... so maybe, just maybe he can take his first win this weekend. Fingers crossed! haha

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:Dyrewolf, I have given my reasons why I believe I disagree with your theory about mechanical grip in an earlier post on this thread.

Er, no...what you ACTUALLY said was:

I have to disagree with Mr Dyrewolf on this subject.

Mclaren have always had a car that is high in mechanical grip. This is even more apparent in wet conditions when teams can't exploit the maximum from the aero parts.

Mclaren fans have nothing to worry about. The car is very good. It qualifies high up the grid and it has race pace. It can even overtake on the correct circuit.

All you did was give an OPINION, which utterly failed to address the questions I posed in my original post. You also blatantly ignored the FACT that the McLaren struggles at low speed corners (when aero downforce is at a minimum) and that several other cars have exhibited greater traction (i.e. MECHANICAL GRIP) out of said corners, in the races we have seen so far.

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:
I have then gone in to explain that Mclaren have numerous other problems as a team like team orders, pit stops, strategy errors.

Precisely...which was NOT the topic of conversation here.

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:
All I have said is I believe when Alonso left and some key personnel and sponsors left with him making Mclaren poorer for it. Luckily they has the foundations for the 2008 car already but have been quite poor since then.

FYI Mclaren are 40% owned by the Bahrain royal family. Also, with Vodafone as their main sponsor I'm pretty sure they are not short of cash. If Alonso did such a good job laying the foundations for the 2008 car (as you are implying) would you care to explain why Ferrari has not won a title since Alonso joined?

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:
My point is just Mclaren have always had problems. They are more highlighted due to British media having 3 hours of time to fill before and after races. I don't blame Martin Whitmarsh for any oh this either.

Fixed that for you. I'm sure the Spanish and Italian media spend lots of time obsessing over Nando, while the German media devote lots of time to Schumacher, Rosberg etc.

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:
At no point have I said one driver is better than another on this thread dyrewolf. Perhaps you should read posts rather than second guessing and looking for hidden meanings.

Perhaps you should take your own advice? And FYI your meanings tend to jump out from the screen...no need to go looking for them.

guys stop the arguing and get back on the topic which isn't lewis vs fernando please or i shall lock it

@ Dyrewolf

I'm sorry but this thread is called: McLaren's Achilles Heel?

What precisely is the topic of conversation here dyrewolf? I thought this was a thread where we could discuss what is wrong with Team Mclaren.

You have chosen to talk about an apparent lack of traction on the Mclaren and you or may not have a point. But...

If the Mclaren is less superior on traction on street circuits then how come Hamilton was able to keep up with the leaders? As Mark Webber was holding everybody up meant that it was near impossible to judge. I would not even compare Button because I am certain his car was set up for a wet race. (That’s if it was set up for anything at all).

I thought I would question Team Mclarens abilities in decision making. Let’s face it, they are quite a special case sometimes and have proved so this season.

You go on to say: If Alonso did such a good job laying the foundations for the 2008 car (as you are implying) would you care to explain why Ferrari has not won a title since Alonso joined?

2008 was the end of a totally different era of F1. With teams coping with more and more rule changes it is hard for teams to evolve cars. Just as teams start developing blown diffusers, they get banned. Just as teams started to get to grips with J Ducts they also are banned. It is very hard to develop a car now, and if the car is not right at the start of the season then you don’t really have a chance. Unfortunately for Alonso and Ferrari they are always playing catch up.

If anything I have tried sticking up for Mr Whitmarsh in this thread because he has come in for some very unfair criticism recently.

@ Fernando

At no point have I tried to, or do I want to make this thread a FA V LH thread. It achieves nothing and provokes childish comments. Like many of the other posters here, I am bored with hearing the same arguments.

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:I am bored with hearing the same arguments.

Come now... be honest, you're a good candidate for someone who brings that argument up alot.

I, like Fernando, have taken the high ground and leave that kind of debating to the class of 2007... And slow news weeks!

It's 2012 now and there are new challenges! I desperately want to see the end of the Red Bull iron curtain that has shrouded F1. I believe Mclaren are the team that will do it this year.

Seeing articles like this make me sad that people have no belief in good British engineering. I am proud that Ferrari are in F1 firstly and any win, especially for Fernando, is very special. I would never call for team boss' to be fired. I have questioned Massa's belief, but I would not want him fired. The team are giving him every chance to earn a new contract.

Why can't Mclaren fans be the same? Why do you have to constantly pick fault with Ferraris greatest rivals in modern times? You have a fantastic car that is Capable of winning many races this year. Remember Vettel in 2010? Lots of incidents and DNFs at the start of the season and he still won the wdc!

Changing of managment/engineers/drivers will just add to inconsistency.