Will Gatland restore "Karma equilibrium" and right the wrong of Clive Woodward?

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I was so disappointed that Woodward tried to prolong his RWC dream when he took a tour party of 87,000 and 98% of them were English. I was even more shocked that the 2 best NH players at the time (Shane Williams and Gavin Henson) were given the biggest 2 fingers ever seen in international rugby.

I would love to see Gatland pick an almost entirely Welsh XV just to make amends, but I guess 2 wrong don't make a right etc etc..

HOWEVER... I really can't see it happening, but if Wales can win another Six Nations on the bounce then they would have a very good argument to play a strong part in a lions XV.

I don't think any of the NH teams are particularly good at the moment. I think Wales' bogey team next year will be Ireland. A fourth consecutive loss for Ireland v Wales would be unthinkable and they have a good record in Cardiff. I don't think Ireland will challenge for the 6N next year but I do see Wales in the top 2.

If the Lions were picked now I think these would be certainties to start (injury permitting)

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. **No stand out**
3. Adam Jones
4. Richie Gray
5. ** No stand out **
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Sam Warburton
8. ** No stand out**

9. Mike Phillips
10. Johnny Sexton
11. George North
12. Jon Davies
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Ben Foden

8 Welsh
2 English
1 Irish
1 Scot
3 up for grabs

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Morg, and that is exactly why the balance of the irish team as a whole, is not good. The back row is the scapegoat. Our back line is weak, we have no real guys to punch holes in defences, and therefore our back row have to do everything. Wales have 5 big carriers in their backs. Who do we have? None. Like I said, the breakdown was an area of strength against NZ, but we just could not penetrate the defence. A back row can only be balanced if the rest of the team is balanced also.

I think Lydiate is a poor ball carrier, and it is something he has to work on to compete with the best 6s.

Fair, but you always seem to insinuate it's the reason why Ferris and SOB are better players.

I wouldn't say Lyds is a poor ball carrier, but that is certainly an area of his to go backwards. He used to be very good in that area. He hasn't been 100% for a while, been in out of the Dragons/Wales teams with that ankle of his. A few of our players have been carrying injuries in the past which usually require an operation at the end of the year, it's not good. I've commented a few times though that the quality of 6's about could see Lydiate miss out on the Lions tour.

The Ireland back row out match NZ while ENG lose to SA badly bruised and beaten and Wales went out to Australia missing also RWC 3rd place Horwill (c).

Surely Ireland back row must be featuring for Lions?

I am saying that is the reason why Ferris/SOB are not playing as well for Ireland than for their respective provinces. I think based on Ireland vs Wales, you would have to say the two of them have not delivered. However, as you can see, the Ireland team is a complete shambles. I don't even know if we will improve, but we are so disorganised it is unreal. Ireland could not have had a better chance to run the ball, as the breakdown was an area of strength on this occasion. Yet Murray was somehow STILL slow, and our backs just looked out of their depth.

Maybe he does it for the Dragons, but I genuinely have never seen Lydiate carry the ball much, and when he does, he doesn't do a whole lot.

I think Ferris could miss the tour based on his injury record alone. He cannot play too much, and his performances seemed to get worse as the HEC wore on. Now we aren't expected to see him until the next HEC apparently. How can you take a player like that? I don't expect him to take it easy beforehand either, for either Ulster or Ireland, so he will be absolutely destroyed by the time the Lions tour begins..

Lydiate is only 24. That is very young and he has yet to peak. He has plenty of years to develop his game which I'm sure he will do.

Faletau has only just played his first 6N and this time last year he wasn;t even in the Welsh set-up. He too is just 22, pretty impressive start to his career.

Can someone please describe what they mean when they say 'unseen work'.

For me, I have always classed this as a generalisation for hitting a large volume of rucks, making the tight tackles, carrying the hard yards, being a horrible niggley **** etc, as opposed to the 'seen work' of making breaks, big hits and turnovers.

The 'unseen work' (as far as my understanding of the term) can now be fairly accurately measured by the plethora of statistics available to us. All this talk of genuinely invisible work is a nonsense as far as I am concerned.

If instead people actually mean 'intangible contribution' such as moral, inspiration, confidence etc. then this is different.

I rate Faletau highly, for the Dragons. He is a real talent being under utilised by Wales. He plays a defensive game, yet for the Dragons he shows real pace and power in open play. I hope to see him improve and make the Lions tour, but he has work to do.

I realise Lydiate is 24, but so are most guys that he is competing against. Around that age anyway. Higginbotham is thereabouts.

jeffwinger wrote:Can someone please describe what they mean when they say 'unseen work'.

For me, I have always classed this as a generalisation for hitting a large volume of rucks, making the tight tackles, carrying the hard yards, being a horrible niggley **** etc, as opposed to the 'seen work' of making breaks, big hits and turnovers.

The 'unseen work' (as far as my understanding of the term) can now be fairly accurately measured by the plethora of statistics available to us. All this talk of genuinely invisible work is a nonsense as far as I am concerned.

If instead people actually mean 'intangible contribution' such as moral, inspiration, confidence etc. then this is different.

Like I said, it is a buzz word that has come into prominence recently. I do not really know myself.

jeffwinger wrote:Can someone please describe what they mean when they say 'unseen work'.

For me, I have always classed this as a generalisation for hitting a large volume of rucks, making the tight tackles, carrying the hard yards, being a horrible niggley **** etc, as opposed to the 'seen work' of making breaks, big hits and turnovers.

The 'unseen work' (as far as my understanding of the term) can now be fairly accurately measured by the plethora of statistics available to us. All this talk of genuinely invisible work is a nonsense as far as I am concerned.

If instead people actually mean 'intangible contribution' such as moral, inspiration, confidence etc. then this is different.

Spot on with the definition of 'Unseen work'. I think people don't like the term. I don't blame them. The pundits are responsible for over using it.

Not sure I agree with any of the OP's certainties except maybe the Welsh props and maybe JD2.

Fullback- Foden, 1/2p, Kearney all strong possibilities, Brown, Byrne, Hogg not beyond the realms of doubt at all and even from just England, the likes of Armitage could feature

Wings- North and Cuthbert are good. I'd not rule out Ashton though. Bowe ahead of either. For me 1/2p too if he doesn't play FB. Wade might make it by then, or JJ. Or Baby Kearney. Or Harry Robinson. Or McVisser. Not certain at all.

13- not certain Manu will be England's 13 never mind Lions- Trinder, Lowe and JJ plus others will at least push him. JD2 may play here, Manu may be playing 12 even! BOD can't be discounted.

12- JD2 should be either 12 or 13 but that's not certain. BOD could play here. I'd have said Barritt but I'm getting less convinced. Roberts? Maybe Allen can come good, or 36 could be an outside chance. I'd go for JD2 here honestly though.

10- most likely Sexton, but Flood and Farrell and unfortunately Laidlaw (or hopefully the actual 10, Weir) could get there. Or Madigan if he's allowed to

9- Phillips no way has this sealed. Blair or Laidlaw are good shouts. Peel would be great and it would be deserved. Youngs is a massive attacking threat with a good pack and my tip is Danny Care who I hope will revive his international career in a massive way

Back row- none of the positions obvious. Warbs likely if he captains but nothing like certain, Lydiate even less so.

The contenders- Warbs, Lydiate, Faletau, R jones, Tipuric, Denton, Brown, Rennie, SOB, POM, Heaslip, Ferris, Morgan, Robshaw, Croft, Wood, Haskell, Armitage. That's without any up and coming players, really.

2nd row- Gray likely, to be honest. Other position I agree is unfilled

Props- likely to be Jones and Jenkins unless Cole and Corbs +/- Marler do a number on them

Hooker- Who knows?

Agree with all of that CJ.

Definitely add Healy to the props though.

It's all way too open to say anyone is a certainty really.

props - Murrey is back as could be seen against Aus. Can hm and gethin play together?

The backrow is going to be impossible to choose, there are loads of players who could be in with a chance:
8. Currently: O'Brien, Morgan, Denton, Faletau, Ryan Jones
If on form: Beattie, Heaslip
7. Currently: Warburton, Robshaw, Rennie, Tipuric
If on form: Barclay, Wood
6. Currently: Ferris, Lydiate
If on form: Strockosch, Brown, Croft

If Ryan Jones gets his deserved chance for Wales, he could be a contender. Seriously, he has been very good.

TJ, I would consider taking Murray if none of the games are on a Sunday. He is an excellent scrumagger and decent in other aspects but if games are on Sundays then he wont play and it'd be a waste of a tourist.

I agree Ryan Jones has a great chance- front five cover, good leader ingoid form for a good side

I meant cover for 4,5,6,7,8

too many people are drawing player groups along national lines.

remember... this is the Lions

Players are picked for their skills AND their ability to gel with a group of individuals some of whom are the normal opposition and fight, play and live as a team when on tour.

There are players who are 'just' good enough, who will fit the Lions mentality far better than some players who are very good for their country, but crap on tour.

Until this past season and since possibly 05 I have been one of Ryan Jones' biggest knockers but fair play to him he has been outstanding for us and the O's whenever called upon.

He seems to relish player now just as one of the boys and senior member far more than when he had the burden of captaincy.

However, he isn't currently better than Lydiate who is simply outstanding atm. He is pushing Faletau all the way and whilst I guess he will start on Saturday due to Tobys injury I feel he may have started anyway.

What he does have going for him when it comes to a Lions tour his is versatility.

There will be a hell of a lot of top class back rowers watching the series from home next year but if he carries on like he is then Ryan Jones won't be one of them