Priestland and the ref.

England v Wales: Twickenham 2008

Wales were terrible for 60 minutes, but some genius from Hook brought us back into the game. For nearly TEN minutes, Wales kept the ball and picked and drove until the final whistle.

Wales were terrible today (blew all their chances, lost 3 of their own lineout on the trot etc etc), but they still managed to get back into the game.

The difference is pointless stupid kicking. We saw rubbish kicks downfield from Priestland all game. Either too high and too far or not accurate enough. WHY on earth kick that last ball away? All we had to do was keep it. It's so moronic it defies belief.

hook kicks down the opposition throats same as priestland. then usually a few other players join in this madness. it used to be ping pong in the game when all sides entered this 'dont go for touch' tactic seasons ago. now we are the only team still punting it up there, we are the 'ping' no 'pongs' coming our way. bye howley.

I'm not having this!!!

Priestland was poor, and kicked too long, but he's not doing it off his own back. This is a team gameplan, and a very poor one IMO. First half Priestland was good, snagged Genia a few times when noone else could, and made a few decent hits. HIS RESTARTS WERE SUBLIME. His handling good, considering he has to take a 5 metre defecit to allow for Phillips pass.

That final kick was not his decision, it was the style in which we played from the 50th minute. As soon as we went up we began to try to kill the game, and when you look at it was a decent decision. We swallowed up AAC on their 10 metre. JOB DONE. If he had kept ball he would've been snagged.

I'm not saying he was good, but he was Wales quality, poor. We tried to play negative as soon as we took the lead and we payed for it.

The worst instances for me were...

The yellow. Webb comes on and I think YES we finally have the stones to go for the throat, lets up the tempo, attack the fringes and score to kill the game. Yet we kill the ball and kick long from Webb and Priestland.

We win a freekick from a scrum in our own half, we are on top but we all know what SJH refs are like. If Webb taps and releases Cuthbert we are going up field.

First half, we demolish the Oz scrum, Jones has the ball at his feet and the refs arm is half up.. cue Phillips. Randomly plays it and then knocks it on. Leads to an Oz pen afer that I think.

Phillips boxkick dead, leads to lineout and try.

Phillips hits Ryan on his own, targetted, oh and plays it a metre or so above his head... Pen.

Now regarding the ref...

He was pretty consistent, Aus were allowed to slap, wrestle and pin players on the wrongside/ fringes, Aus (Pocock) were allowed to disrupt while lying all over the place, seal off, hit each ruck from wherever they perceived the gate to be. Wales were reffed to a slightly higher standard. But again I'm not having that as an excuse. We all know Owens made a difference against NZ for Ireland, being allowed to compete is a lovely thing.

All this boils down to me for only the 2nd time in my life cheering the opposition on against us... (First time was Japan WC) we were very negative, psychologically underdogs from the offset, and have wedged a nice little 4 - 0 rod for our backs now against Aus in all comps (This group)

It is interesting how we are the ONLY team who kicks long and high these days. Whay are we so back 3 friendly???

Every time we hit Aus back 3 they kicked long and made it difficult for us, or they kicked it high and made it difficult for us.

I'd still have to maintain, if he'd done almost anything but kick that ball away we'd be celebrating victory now. The game was won as far as I'm concerned, with less than a minute left you have to keep possession and run the clock down. Then all of Wales' other errors wouldn't have mattered. Priestland did single-handedly ensure that we didn't win anyway.

Knowsit

I understand what your saying but...

His kick wasn't a mistake, the penalty, no pressure at the lineout and penalty were, and were far more costly for us!!!!

There were far worse errors from other players IMO

How was Priestland's kick not a mistake? I've already said that with less than a minute left on the clock you have to keep possession or if you're going to kick at least find touch. Priestland did the polar opposite to what was needed. It shouldn't have been a question of defending, more a question of keeping the ball and then getting rid of it once time went red. I don't think that was too much to ask.

Granted Priestland wasn't the only player who made mistakes but his was the most decisive. It was an exceedingly stupid decision and I believe we would have won had the ball been kept in hand.

Australia were given a penalty for Wales lying offside at the ruck. The ref then warns Pocock to stop holding players down, "you must allow the player to roll away" The player he was holding down was the one pinged. Yet he still gives the penalty to Australia?

I know little of the rules, but if indeed it is illegal to do this why was the penalty not reversed?

It wasn't most decicive!!

Firstly, lets look at outcomes...

RP's kick offered...? AAC being swallowed up by our defence on the Aus 10 metre. Lost posession but relatively safe from our perspective.

The resultant penalty...? Aus ball outside our 22, very threatening.

The maul drag down...? Shot at goal game over!

If we rate them 1 to 3 in relation to what we want to see on the 80th minute, 1 being the most 3 being the least how would you rate them?

That's beside the point. You haven't considered what would have happened if we'd just kept the ball up the jumper and ground out the remaining 40 seconds.

Priestland didn't need to kick in the first place, it wasn't as if we were in our own 22. That possession should have been ours, handing it over to the Aussies was lethal.

Its because our defensive systems suits letting them run back at us

Knowsit17 wrote:How was Priestland's kick not a mistake? I've already said that with less than a minute left on the clock you have to keep possession or if you're going to kick at least find touch. Priestland did the polar opposite to what was needed. It shouldn't have been a question of defending, more a question of keeping the ball and then getting rid of it once time went red. I don't think that was too much to ask.

Granted Priestland wasn't the only player who made mistakes but his was the most decisive. It was an exceedingly stupid decision and I believe we would have won had the ball been kept in hand.

Knowsit mate
Havent seen the match but listened to it on the radio. It was the CORRECT thing to do. For a number of reasons

1. Many dangerous offensive movements during the match was because of the kick and chase..... it was his teammates who didnt put pressure on the kick, the Aussies would have had to run into an imposing Welsh defence, instead you guys let the opposition run and kick back at you!!!

2. 72nd minute Gethin nearly gave the match to the Aussies by allowing the packs to slump.... IN FRONT OF YOUR POSTS, it was only because Berrick Barnes was carrying an injury that you were not chasing the game after that

3. Priestland with this in mind did not distribute in his own half due to some poor forward play AGAIN this week......... Gethin poor, AWJ penalty machine etc etc

4. He was obviously under instructions from the bench

Get a grip Priestland didnt lose you that match

The situation Priestland found himself in was difficult, there has been lottery penalties right through the second half, what should he do, if Wales remain in their 22 chances are there will be a kick to goal if OZ gets a penalty, so he he didn't want to risk staying in his half, it almost worked, but then OZ did get into their half and got a penalty.

flyhalf, forgive me if I don't understand how you can draw that conclusion having not actually seen the game yourself. Also you ignored my last post. All Wales had to do was keep possession for about 40 seconds more and then boot the ball out. Somebody has yet to explain to me how that's too much to ask.

The ball should have been stuffed up the jumper for the final minute and we'd be talking about a Welsh win now. How often do you see a side winning by a tight margin kicking territorially and not hanging on to possession at that stage? What Priestland did was suicidal.

Knowsit17 wrote:flyhalf, forgive me if I don't understand how you can draw that conclusion having not actually seen the game yourself. Also you ignored my last post. All Wales had to do was keep possession for about 40 seconds more and then boot the ball out. Somebody has yet to explain to me how that's too much to ask.

The ball should have been stuffed up the jumper for the final minute and we'd be talking about a Welsh win now. How often do you see a side winning by a tight margin kicking territorially and not hanging on to possession at that stage? What Priestland did was suicidal.

I did say I didnt see it, but on many an occasion radio commentry is more distinct. Now a been said if he had passed to another at that stage you could well have been sucked in and a penalty given away in a kickable area. Gethin gave two away in front of your posts one in early first laf and one in 72 min.

Cannae see your rationale that if you kept possession in your own half you would have been safe................. the chances were based on your pens given away was slim.

It was the correct decision IMHO

If you keep that stance we'll have to agree to disagree. We weren't in front of the sticks while all this was happening btw, we were more in midfield. When you're winning by a point and there's less than a minute left on the clock, holding onto the ball and grinding out the final seconds is nothing short of routine imo. And the breakdown this time was better than last week so there wasn't as much danger of a turn-over by the Aussies. I maintain, Priestland was suicidal and clueless.

"All Wales had to do was keep possession for about 40 seconds" -- They obviously didn't have the confidence to try. Wales were poor -- lineout was awful, and that alone should guarantee a side will lose a match when they can rarely secure their own lineout ball. Aus didn't have to do a lot to win that game -- just wait for Wales to make millions of mistakes and capitalise on them. Wales have the worse lineout in th 6N, and the woest lineout in the world's top 10. Sides know they can gain territory and possesion from our lineout!

And tactical kicking -- kicking well -- Wales can't do it.

I watched the match. Wales gifted Aus momentim and points, but a lot of the momentum Aus gained was from our dysfunctional lineout, which is not exactly a new problem. Maybe the lineout wasn't just MR's fault -- at times it looked like there was no communication with the jumpers/lifters and the throw was mistimed. It was a mess. You cannot expect to win if you cannot do the basics and repeatedly lose the ball or give it away aimlessly.

so its not working , we are not using the right tactics for our players, we do not kick well enough to make life difficult for the opposition, so dont do it!, lets change to suit our players strengths, not the glaring weakness of poor kicking.

Awj and Matthew Rees - errr they've been playing international rugby together for years yet still give ball away.


Ryan jones - lions captain!

It works against some teams but not all we seen that it didnt work against Aus last week and we didnt change it that is the coaches fault. Biggar wanted to play what was in front of him and was left at home because of it. Howley has to go if he is in charge there is no way we will come in the top 3 of next years 6 nations.

alot of people have been calling for priestland to be dropped after the 1st test and now people are baying for his blood. While i feel sorry for him as he is taking so much unjustified criticism, the 1st match yes he knocked it on at a key moment, but that pass was truly awful, he had to jump to catch it and while it was poor hands the pass didnt help at all. now in this game people are blaming him for a poor kick but what were his other options? run at the aussies as all his forwards were in a ruck, so he would get turned over or conceed a penalty. instead he kicked it far down the pitch, he could have gone to touch but with out lineout and allowing the aussie backs all that space, not the best idea.

i have been a supporter of priestland since he made his debut and thought he had an oustanding WC, yet i agree his form has dipped but what has caused it? has he got an injury? have the tactics changed? because surely something must have caused him to not play to his full potential.

now lets look at our other fly half options?

Hook- inconsistant, can be brilliant, but trys to hard and wants to create something out of nothing, defence also suspect and can kick aimlessly, cant control a match
biggar- should have been on tour, not always been a fan, but this season he has played superb, good tactical kicker, commands the game well, good place kicker. needs to feature in the AI- hopefully as 1st choice
Tovey- havent yet to see what all the fuss is about to be honest.

Now compare them to priestland- past few matches he has been solid in defence, generally his kicking hasnt been his strong point (inconsistant) throughout his time in the wales shirt, has shown how to command a game...sometimes, and has been able to bring our backline into a game.

overall i still think priestland is the one for wales, however i believe it is now Biggars turn to be given a chance, he is the form player, and has been playing similar to priestland in the WC IMO.

i dont think we need Hook, which is a shame as he can be superb but like with Byrne, we have better players in his position. no time for remorse, it is a shame as myabe if he hadnt been shoe horned into different positions he could have developed and been brilliant at one, but then he wasnt so ah well.

your views on the 10 shirt? not just for the last match but for the future?

Preistland for now, maybe Biggar eventually if he can reproduce his regional form on the international scene.

Tovey and Morgan will have an opportunity - Tovey will have a chance at the Blues next season.

Wales have a lot of 10's to choose from the problem is none of them are heads above any of the others.

We need one of them to find form and pick that one. Biggar has played well lately so maybe he should be there, but having seen how poor he has been for most of this season I am worried about him playing for Wales.

Truth be told though the Welsh fly half is always going to have abuse for any mistakes and praise for anything half decent thats just what the Welsh are like for that position.

Shingler perhaps if he can be forgiven for wanting to be a Scot!

SirBurger wrote:Shingler perhaps if he can be forgiven for wanting to be a Scot!

If you saw him play in the 92-0 loss to New Zealand you'd know why most of Wales were not too bothered about losing him.

at last!!! a poster on the same page as me!!!wwosprey, howley is absolutely useless, the players are following his script, and it's the wrong script ! anyone who speaks out will be left out .

hibbard had a few jabs at the 'plan' and was pushed out a while back when he was in better form than now. the management SAY they want players to take responsibility on the field, but selection of the 'yes' men says otherwise.

warburton, great on his day, but no way should he be captain at the moment. we need a fighter at captain in the refs ear, total lack of captains qualities . also awj dumped as captain a while back.

we need a captain to question the ref AND change tactics on the park without fear of being dropped, because at the end of the day thats what its all about, appearance in the jersey rather than speaking out. thats why howley is wary of biggar.

Priestland and Phillips were both poor, and kicked the ball away on multiple occasions. Priestland got a lesson from Barnes in all aspects of the game. Genia's flat passing and rugby brain was superb.

But this was expected. Priestland is mediocre and Phillips is slow. We knew that going in. Great job to be so close at the end, given we didn't see the ball for large stretches of the game.

We were second best up front and the line-out was terrible. For this Rees must take most of the blame. Bradley Davies is a penalty machine.

It is sometimes possible to win despite a misfiring pack (eg vs. England in the WC warm-up in Cardiff), but not with Phillips and Priestland vs. Barnes and Genai. That is no contest.

Priestland and Mike Phillips kicked the ball away to the opposition back 3 all game, ensuring we were down on territory and possession. This may have been a drilled tactic, but if so a poor one with poor execution. Barnes' tactical kicking was on another level.

There's never any one reason for a loss. The Oz pack had more go-forward than us, and I don't think we won a single turnover. The line-out went to pieces , and I think Rees's throwing was mainly to blame (he gave away possession with a not straight too). The penalty machine was Bradley, not AWJ, btw.

Despite all that we were in with a shout right at the end. And, yes, Priestland's kick was a misjudgement. His tactical kicking had been dodgy all match, indeed all year, so no surprise there.

How is Priestland to blame? Webb chose to move the ball rather than sticking it up the jumper with the forwards. Priestland could have taken the ball into contact, but with all his forwards in front of him he would probably have been turned over. He could have spun the ball wide and tried an expansive threequarter move, but that would have been high risk. He took the only sensible option at the time.

Wales then gave away a silly penalty deep in Australia's, that was probably the crucial incident. I am not sure about the final penalty for collapsing the maul, I thought that was harsh, I thought Australia were loosing control of that maul when it collapsed.

The line outs were a mystery, Rees is being blamed on this board, but out jumpers were not getting into the air. Was it the throw, the timing, the lift, or was there an external influence?

Australia won because they were more physical in the tackle and in the rucks and mauls. Wales were too indiciplined or failed to play the ref. Also gave away a very soft try. Beck, ball watching in mid field, took the dummy and left too big a space for Warburton to cover. Shaun Edwards must be furious, 7 points given away!

I would keep Priestland for the final test, after all he is the only specialist 10 in the squad. I still have doubts about Beck and would pick Williams if he is fit enough for the 80mins. Warburton does not look fit, so Tipuric or Shingle could be an option. I really like Ian Evans, so I would try to find a starting place for him. And, I can't believe I am saying this, but Melon looked a bit podgy and seemed to struggle, so James may be an option.

It's hard to say who's responsible for a misfiring lineout, but one throw was much too long and another was very not straight.

Webb should not have shipped it back. Priestland was too deep and is unable to execute the kind of accurate positional kicking that Barnes was doing so well. The booting away of possession - Phillips' box-kicks were also poor - was a constant theme, and Howley's after-match comments seem to suggest he actually prefers playing rugby without the ball.

One thing in Priestland's favour - his restarts were much improved. Pity he gets so many of them.