Success or failure?

Its been an interesting year so far for the Home Nations.

Wales win another Slam but talked themselves into a corner by suggesting that in order to be seen as progressing towards RWC 2015 they had to go down under and beat Australia. We all know how that has turned out and what is most concerning is that they have come so close and folded under pressure, composure apparently being their achilles heel. Without Roberts there is no route 1 option to cross the gainline of set piece and from 6-10 Wales have been very disappointing. Did Howley's appointment upset the camp, to what extent did this contribute to Wales failure? How should the WRU respond now when the Lions come knocking for Gatland or will they go after Andy Robinson now?

A superb summer for Scotland. They deserve it and I hope they have turned a corner as a rampaging Scotland is good for rugby. They have kept the faith with AR and he has delivered. I expect them to beat Samoa and there are some real talents in the side: Visser, Denton and Gray will surely be going to Aus next summer.

As for Ireland, well i have never seen a Test like last Saturday's v NZ. I was gutted for Ireland who made the ABs look very beatable. and played with an intensity that they are well capable of yet often find it difficult to maintain. Pick a lions side today and you'd have a shed load of Irish in it with Sexton a must at 10. Kearney Best and Healey superb and all this without POC and Bowe and without a solid partner for BOD. Inconsistent but brilliant, Kidney needs to work on the Irish mentality as the talent and performances are there.

Last but by no means least Lancaster's England. I am confused. I think England lack really quality players in key positions and are very much in a developmental phase. That said Cole Hartley Robshaw all immense and Manu has matured. They have potential no doubt, Joseph looks exciting and Youngs seems to be back to form. Foden has had a great tour but the centres seem to have stalled as a unit to launch attacks from and England's tendency for Leicester style rugby has been their undoing v the Boks. They need to start breaking up their point of attack and utilising their potent back 3 more effectively. After a huge success in this years 6 Nations I don't think there was a great deal of expectation on Lancaster and although i love his attitude and respect how he has tried to re define the ethos of the camp, but he is somewhat naive, results are everything and the honey moon period has to end. The results have to come.

I rate Scotland as having had obvious and much needed success, the Irish as having played with more passion than any team I have seen for a long time, the Welsh as having dropped the ball (again) and England as full of potential and talent but somewhat rudderless.

I think any assessment needs to be made in terms of the longer term. The home unions haven't had a win on this tour yet. However, if Ireland, England and Wales go close or win this coming weekend it certainly implies they are competitive. I am going to be honest and say that I think there is a gap between Scotland and the others, irrespective of their win over Australia.

Yes there is a gap but I think Scotland have gone a very long way to close it by doing what every other side has aspired to i.e. closing out a SH side at home and I also think Visser has reminded them what scoring tries feels like, lets hope they kick on.

mowgli wrote:Yes there is a gap but I think Scotland have gone a very long way to close it by doing what every other side has aspired to i.e. closing out a SH side at home and I also think Visser has reminded them what scoring tries feels like, lets hope they kick on.

Cheers Mowgli

If Scotland lose to Samao, then I would personally see it as failure. Scotland are always competitive even in the six nations but it's our mentaility that costs us another 5-10 points that would turn small losses in small wins.

I would want at least a 4th place finish in the next 6N to cement the improvement and then kick on from there.

youngs=outr of form- the guy has been getting better every game- infact the best england player by a long way last game

however you asked a question success or failure.

That is based on results.Out of them only wales have had success this year..

good assessments Mowgli.

Wales and England really will be disappointed if they don't get a result next weekend, although both have young teams that will take a lot from this tour, particularly England who are a side in transition. As GS champions Wales will be disappointed not to have won the series but given their fairly poor record against the SH I think if they can get a win on Saturday they can go home very happy.

For Scotland another good tour so far but why can't they buy a win in the 6N? They need to show they can produce their AI snd Summer form in the 6N. Visser has made his bow and they've beaten Australia so a good summer for them. A win over Samoa is vital though and not an easy task.

For Ireland plenty of positives despite the disappointment of losing last weekend. Despite missing 3 of their best players in Ferris, O'Connell and Bowe we've shown we can still be a force and that our players can bring their provincial form for Ireland. However it is imperitive that we back up that performance in the final test to show that last week wasn't another false dawn. A win would be fantastic, a >15 point drubbing a disaster and anything in between would be acceptable and give us something to build on.

Wales - Very little betwen the sides and composure cost us on Saturday - A win this week IMO would greatly make up for that and we would see this tour and the 6 Nations as a success - A defeat and we remain top of the NH which isn't good enough for this side.

England - In transition and IMO 3 defeats would not be a disaster in SA - However it is the manner of the defeats that might hurt - Last week could so easily have been a 40-50 pointer. England need to be within 7-8 points of SA to call this a reasonable development tour. This is not a strong SA side and anything else will be seen as average at best and sacrificial

Ireland - 1 swallow doesn't make a Summer and another pumeling this week and they are back to the drawing board. I'm afraid that's what I'm expecting but hope for something different. It remains to be seen, but the backs and the forwards seem unbalanced IMO

Scotland - 2 Swallows also dont make a Summer and a valiant 3 point win against an Aus 2nd string after taking a pummeling on their line coupled with a win over Fiji should not paper over the cracks. Visser is a geat acquisition, however defeat to Samoa would leave them in disarray. Victory would suggest that they will be able to compete better next year. I believe the latter will be true.

RubyGuby wrote:Wales - Very little betwen the sides and composure cost us on Saturday - A win this week IMO would greatly make up for that and we would see this tour and the 6 Nations as a success - A defeat and we remain top of the NH which isn't good enough for this side.

England - In transition and IMO 3 defeats would not be a disaster in SA - However it is the manner of the defeats that might hurt - Last week could so easily have been a 40-50 pointer. England need to be within 7-8 points of SA to call this a reasonable development tour. This is not a strong SA side and anything else will be seen as average at best and sacrificial

Ireland - 1 swallow doesn't make a Summer and another pumeling this week and they are back to the drawing board. I'm afraid that's what I'm expecting but hope for something different. It remains to be seen, but the backs and the forwards seem unbalanced IMO

Scotland - 2 Swallows also dont make a Summer and a valiant 3 point win against an Aus 2nd string after taking a pummeling on their line coupled with a win over Fiji should not paper over the cracks. Visser is a geat acquisition, however defeat to Samoa would leave them in disarray. Victory would suggest that they will be able to compete better next year. I believe the latter will be true.

15 of the 22 that lined up against Wales twice?

good general assesment of where we are.

lancaster's results will make no difference to the rfu. if they want him gone they will get shot of him. i expect england to have a new coach before rwc15.

all home nations are doing reasonably well. could be a great lions next year. (more bloodi 6.00am kickoffs i suppose )

RubyGuby wrote:Wales - Very little betwen the sides and composure cost us on Saturday - A win this week IMO would greatly make up for that and we would see this tour and the 6 Nations as a success - A defeat and we remain top of the NH which isn't good enough for this side.

Only if Ireland IS defeated, like you predict Ruby. If not, you'll be demoted for a few months. The spoils of victory rather than defeat as it were

RubyGuby wrote:England - In transition and IMO 3 defeats would not be a disaster in SA - However it is the manner of the defeats that might hurt - Last week could so easily have been a 40-50 pointer. England need to be within 7-8 points of SA to call this a reasonable development tour. This is not a strong SA side and anything else will be seen as average at best and sacrificial.

Try telling Bullsbok and other South Africans on this site that their side is not on the belligerent up and up and proving it

RubyGuby wrote:Ireland - 1 swallow doesn't make a Summer and another pumeling this week and they are back to the drawing board. I'm afraid that's what I'm expecting but hope for something different. It remains to be seen, but the backs and the forwards seem unbalanced IMO

It's ok to be brutally honest Ruby, and on this one you're spot on - we have no backs to balance with the forwards. Our backplay creativity is zilch and we're hanging in there on forward sacrifice alone. Could be a roasting if last week was our effort of the tour but also, anything can happen with this Irish side - more elusive than the French right now.

RubyGuby wrote:Scotland - 2 Swallows also dont make a Summer and a valiant 3 point win against an Aus 2nd string after taking a pummeling on their line coupled with a win over Fiji should not paper over the cracks. Visser is a geat acquisition, however defeat to Samoa would leave them in disarray. Victory would suggest that they will be able to compete better next year. I believe the latter will be true.

I can see Scotland getting their clean sweep. Scotland are certainly amassing some ammo - if it clicks it could be quite potent next season in Europe

RubyGuby wrote:Wales - Very little betwen the sides and composure cost us on Saturday - A win this week IMO would greatly make up for that and we would see this tour and the 6 Nations as a success - A defeat and we remain top of the NH which isn't good enough for this side.

England - In transition and IMO 3 defeats would not be a disaster in SA - However it is the manner of the defeats that might hurt - Last week could so easily have been a 40-50 pointer. England need to be within 7-8 points of SA to call this a reasonable development tour. This is not a strong SA side and anything else will be seen as average at best and sacrificial

Ireland - 1 swallow doesn't make a Summer and another pumeling this week and they are back to the drawing board. I'm afraid that's what I'm expecting but hope for something different. It remains to be seen, but the backs and the forwards seem unbalanced IMO

Scotland - 2 Swallows also dont make a Summer and a valiant 3 point win against an Aus 2nd string after taking a pummeling on their line coupled with a win over Fiji should not paper over the cracks. Visser is a geat acquisition, however defeat to Samoa would leave them in disarray. Victory would suggest that they will be able to compete better next year. I believe the latter will be true.

Ruby, I should add that this is also very true

2 swallows also doesn't make an Ashton. He hasn't scored in ages.

SecretFly wrote:Scotland are certainly amassing some ammo - if it clicks it could be quite potent next season in Europe

And it wouldn't be before time. They played some great stuff in the Six Nations and it was their finishing that let them down. If they can get that sorted, the rest of us are in trouble.

I think it is important to see every loss as a failure, then there isn't any grey areas.

That's how I see the Boks when they lose. we lose. we fail, simples.

That is the correct way to think Bilt

However much easier to say when you are that good though

mystiroakey wrote:That is the correct way to think Bilt

However much easier to say when you are that good though

Not sure I agree with you mate, imagine the springboks have the attitude when they lose to NZ or OZ that the ri nations was a success even though we lost, that perpetuates the habit of accepting defeat, or at the least softening the reality of the loss.

I get very angry when we lose, no matter who it is. It is an epic failure.

Bilt its easy to take losses on when they happen less.

If you lost almost every game- it just isnt worth getting angry about all the time, lifes just not worth it

As fans we are all moulded by our teams performances/success/failure, and we either have a heart attck,adjust our expectations or follow a different sport

it just isnt worth getting angry about all the time, lifes just not worth it

Sorry for laughing, but believe me whe had our fair share of losses over the last two years

How many have you won though Bilty?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:2 swallows also doesn't make an Ashton. He hasn't scored in ages.

oooohh...you've blown it now!

biltongbek wrote:I think it is important to see every loss as a failure, then there isn't any grey areas.

That's how I see the Boks when they lose. we lose. we fail, simples.

And there in lies the difference between the SH and NH. Good on you Biltong

Looking for positives in defeat is one thing, accepting them is another. The body cannot achieve what the mind cannot see .

mystiroakey wrote:How many have you won though Bilty?

Over the last two years?

2 years is still a short time. England have been rubbish for 9 years- it drags

biltongbek wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:How many have you won though Bilty?

Over the last two years?

In 2010-2011 we only won 13/23

ouch bilt- not good pal

biltongbek wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:How many have you won though Bilty?

Over the last two years?

In 2010-2011 we only won 13/23

Is that including the RWC QF when you were robbed?..... ....

But at the same time i accept England are failures.. But it just doesnt make me as angry to lose as it did straight after 2003

rodders wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:How many have you won though Bilty?

Over the last two years?

In 2010-2011 we only won 13/23

Is that including the RWC QF when you were robbed?..... ....

Of course.

Ashton scored three last month...

You judge success by matches won,close does`nt cut it to date only Scotland are a success.Ireland played as only they can scrap for every thing BUT when it came down to it they could`nt make it stick[so far].Drawing 19 all opt for a Penalty outside the Goal kickers range instead of kicking to the corner and eat up the clock. NZ had a man in the bin took and did`nt concede possession for those eight minutes and set up a drop to win.Standard procedure lesson one every time you get in the red zone you must come away with points.
England have made a brave front of it but still have`nt the settled team to do the job.Wales for want of booting the ball into the crowd lost a match,THE difference at this level you concentrate 8o minutes plus.Not sure about Priestland in the RWC he was supposed to be the answer,mayb eHook is a better option at 10.

dogtooth wrote:good general assesment of where we are.

lancaster's results will make no difference to the rfu. if they want him gone they will get shot of him. i expect england to have a new coach before rwc15.

all home nations are doing reasonably well. could be a great lions next year. (more bloodi 6.00am kickoffs i suppose )

I agree, i think lancaster will go after the next 6 Nations unless England come 2nd or better again. With an improving Scotland and all sides playing for Lions spots it will be an interesting championship

I thnik most of the NH teams came into this summer tour with high hopes of atleast taking 1 SH scalp.

But it has proved in all the games so far that the NH teams is that NH teams cannot close out close games against SH teams.

I thought Ireland did very well last week.

England was well and truly blown off the pitch in the frist 20 minutes, and they simply could not catch up.

Wales simply could not get away from their kicking the ball away at vital time type of game.

The whole mind set in the NH is totatly different to that in the SH.

Regarding this week ends game/s it will not matter that mutch if they win or lose. All NH teams will walk away with the mind set that we could of should of won atleast 1 test. The only NH team that can say they have had a good (better than expected)tour is Scotland.

Who would thought that Scotland would get any where near a win against Australia before the tour even started? no me neither.