Scotland now the best NH team..

First topic message reminder :

Ok, we are not, but great to get 3 out of 3

Now to continue to develop and back this up in the AI - if we can knock over SA and Tonga, then we will be doing well

miaow wrote:Murrayfield threatens so much as a home 'fortress', but seems to fall flat once Scotland go behind. It could be one of the most intimidating stadiums if the crowd got up for it/filled it regularly

100% agree with you on Murrayfield. On the old 606 I made a point that no ever sings at Murrayfield except when we win and then that is at the end of the game usually. I think its down to the type of person watching at murrayfield. There is a large G&T contingent (similar to twickenham) dressed up in their tweeds etc and they are generally very quiet throughout games. Scottish away fans make a lot of noise though, enjoyed singing oh flower of scotland at the millenium stadium this year. I've bought tickets for Scot vs NZ in november, but i decided to get student tickets this time in the hope that people in that section will be up for a bit more noise and won't be so shocked by my shouting.

I enjoyed your analysis Miaow, interesting opinions on Scottish rugby as it is at present and could be in the future. I agree with you about ansbro, he is a class player in my opinion and I think he is improving every year. I personally think he should be in the 14 jersey though. Although Max Evans is a talented fella, I think his silly error count is a little high and he is not the best at off loading. Scotland's future backline looks like this in my head... 9. Blair 10. Laidlaw 11. Visser 12. Scott 13. Dunbar 14. Ansbro 15. Hogg. I see potential for Jones to steal a spot in there somewhere but his defence is a little under par in my opinion, hopefully it will improve.

miaow wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

miaow wrote:Wales have now created a world class team in most starting positions

Now that's comedy.

Go on...


15. Leigh Halfpenny- consistent excellence. Just does the right things at the right time, in spite of his size.
12 & 13. Jamie Roberts and Jon Davies- the size, strength and talent that make them, individually, top centres. Roberts would get in nearly every starting XV in the world. Davies has deceptive pace and scoring ability.
11. George North- few better runners with ball in hand in broken field.
9. Mike Phillips- infuriating, perhaps, and even though he has weaknesses, has strengths that are unrivalled. Big player on the world stage. See: World Cup 2011.
6 & 7. Dan Lydiate and Sam Warburton- really don't need to justify their tags as world class...do I...?
1 & 3. Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones- same as above.



Now...go on...how do they not have world class players in most positions...?

Oh my.

This is getting totally off topic but couldn't let it slide! To me world class means one of the top 3 players in the world in that position.

1/2p - no chance
JD2 - fantastic player that I rate highly, but not world class
Roberts - long term injury and not been his rampaging best for a long time now
Lydiate - no chance (tackles a lot and has a great work rate, but so do all the other international 6's)
Warbuton - potential to be, but has been off form for a long time now. World class by reputation as opposed to performances.
Jenkins and Jones - probably the closest in the team to world class but not been as good as their 2009 lions rampaging best

For me the reason that Wales have done well is because the team is better than the sum of their parts. They have very good international players, but to say the core of the team are world class is a gross exaggeration IMO!

And it is just my opinion afterall.

Yeah Lydiate, while I admire him for his selfless workrate, is not world class. I hate the way every thinks he is absolutley amazing, Ferris will be ahead of him for the Lions.

Not with gatland as coach.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Not with gatland as coach.

That is a problem.

I think he is best summed up by the 'best of Dan Lydiate' compilation after the 6n - lots of tackles, only a few of them overly impressive or dominate!

A Lions team without a fit Ferris is an injustice. I'm going very off topic but it must be known

There has been endless discussions about the Lions no.6 jersey. IMO Lydiate could miss out due to the abundance of back-rowers. There are not so many open-sides though, which could see Tips go along with Warbs and Rennie.

As I look at this thread I just do wonder how it has become yet another debate about the extent to which Welsh players are "world class".

You'd think there would be more humility after a white wash series.....

I'm sure you do remember our discussion on the rules of 606v fes!

funnyExiledScot wrote:As I look at this thread I just do wonder how it has become yet another debate about the extent to which Welsh players are "world class".

You'd think there would be more humility after a white wash series.....

No chance! One might say the same about a team that regularly win wood and just beat Samoa and Fiji and Aus and are now targeting the world cup and grand slams.

That said i genuinely wish Scotland well, we need a strong scottish side to make Calcutta Cups into contests and to upset the rotten Saxons. Calder, White and Jeffrey one of the most effective back row units in rugby!

I think he's talking about posters on here as opposed to the governing union's management!

Good to hear you want Scotland to do well though - here's hoping it starts against Wales in the 6n!

Yes, I was referring to the fans! The SRU do not and never have spoken for Scottish rugby!!

Still, thank you for wishing us well. Careful for what you wish for though....

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think he's talking about posters on here as opposed to the governing union's management!

Good to hear you want Scotland to do well though - here's hoping it starts against Wales in the 6n!

I am sure he is!

The only more ridiculous thing than Wales debating how world class they are after a 3-0 failure, is the Scottish camp talking up a 3/3 v mainly 2nd rate opposition into world domination. However, hold NZ to a respectable loss, beat SA and Tonga and beat England at Twickenham in the opener and then Italy at home, then I think we will have a game on our hands when we travel.....otherwise I am afraid it could be a long, long season again for Scotland.

Let's see how it pans out

RDW_Scotland wrote:Let's see how it pans out

miaow, thanks for putting all this work into an analysis of the Scottish team from an outside perspective - it is appreciated. I'll aim to give you some reasoned replies below:

miaow wrote:

drsambo1928 wrote:typical Scottish optimisum (sp)

That made me laugh, tbf. Goes against the pessimistic, dour stereotype.



Apologies in advance, this is a long one, but I'd love to have some Scottish feedback...

I think the 6 Nations, in terms of results for Scotland, didn't do them justice. At least, it didn't do justice to the fact they have a very, very good coach in Robinson, who, if given enough time, can make them competitive again. And that's happening/happened. Yeah, the Australia game was somewhat fortuitous in that they were playing a team who had rested several big names in order to cope with two Tests in four days, in terrible, 'Northern Hemisphere rugby conditions', but they won. In Australia. Beating Fiji should be expected, but Samoa are a good team, and to beat them on their own patch is a great result.

It is true that we came close in several 6Ns games, and arguably should have won a few, but that's simply not good enough at this level of competitive sport - 'moral victories' count for jack, and we should never accept them as a substitute for the real thing. I'm not sure that I'd agree with your assessment of Robinson's coaching abilities - much has been written on this topic before, but in essence his selection skills are poor at best, picking players lacking form, sticking to old favourites, playing players out of position, etc., and to be honest, despite our 'successful' SH summer tour, I'd prefer that we start our drive towards RWC with a new coach. However, that's not going to happen, and instead we'll have a new coaching team, notably Scott Johnston as attack coach and Matt Taylor in charge of defence. It will be interesting to see what they bring to the party. I don't entirely agree with you about the Australian game - we can only play the side that is put out against us, and 15 of the 22 names that subsequently faced Wales were in common, so I don't believe it was that much weakened. No question the weather played in our favour relative to what we are used to, but as you'll remember from the 6Ns, Scotland's preferred gameplan today is a high-tempo off-loading game (not always successful, but at least you can see the multiple phases, etc.), so the weather did not play to us in that respect. You are right about Fiji and Samoa too, and I would only add that neither is an 'easy' destination for any 6Ns touring team.

miaow wrote:I think Laidlaw is an excellent find/conversion (if you'll excuse the pun). I still think you struggle in the certain areas though, in both quality and depths. There doesn't seem to be a core in the pack: you have an abundance of talent in the back and front rows, but it seems to be three new faces in each every sixth months. Since Euan Murray's withdrawal from putting his sport first, there's no one to really anchor at 3. Ross Ford is a good hooker, someone to build around, though perhaps not as captain, and Jacobsen has the mentality, 'heart' and effort you wish players with twice his talent would exude. But you need that anchor at 3. And you're not exactly on your own in that respect, in both world and club rugby.

Like any international side (except perhaps NZ), we're going to have areas of strength and weakness. We've introduced a lot of new faces recently, but that was more than needed to freshen up a stale/disinterested group imo, and I expect us to have a fairly settled squad for some time to come. Laidlaw will provide the tactical direction for the side, and altho I don't believe he is our long-term option at 10, he more often than not makes the right decision and has a very good rugby brain - there are weakness to his game in terms of tactical kicking (which can be worked upon) and defence (altho he lacks not in courage), but he's still the right choice for the next wee while until, most likely, Duncan Weir comes thru as our pivot of choice.

In terms of the front row, we have been scuppered for Bug Euge's decision regarding his faith and his loss of form, but he seemed to have found his feet on the summer tour and has recovered a hunger for the game. Moray Low and Geoff Cross can at least provide cover there. On the loosehead side, i believe that Chunk's time at international level has passed, and that Ryan Grant (who wore the shirt admirably down under) and Jon Welsh are the longer-term options at 1 - both decent scrummagers and get stuck in around the park - just what you want from your looseheads. At hooker, Fordy is pretty much the complete package, altho his darts are still vulnerable to the odd lapse. The coming of age of Pat MacArthur should provide him with some competition and spur him on to greater things. I'm not convinced that he is our right choice for captain.

miaow wrote:The second rows, Gray especially, are top drawer. I'd make Gray captain, first at club level, then for Scotland. You know he's going to be around for years, and there are few in the team who you can say that for. I rate Kellock and Hamilton, in different ways. Who is there beyond these three?

I'd consider Gray for captain, and like you, I'm fairly comfortable with our options in the boiler-room, even beyond the 3 you mention. Fraser MacKenzie and Tom Ryder can play a fair bit, and there's a couple of decent youngsters coming thru, Grant Gilchrist at Embra, Nick Campbell at Glasgow, and Gray's little brother, Jonny, is now in the Glasgow academy.

miaow wrote:Again, in the back row, you have a plethora of nearly men: Beattie, Vernon, Hogg, Simon Taylor etc (perhaps a bit in the past with the last two, but I hope you get the point). No one seems to nail the shirt. Now you've got a Saffa, in Denton, at 8, with Strokosch and Barclay alternating at 6, and Rennie, the out and out poacher, which you've needed, Rennie at 7. Although it hurts, because he's a classy player, and one I rate, I'd drop Barclay to the bench. You need that muscle, and can't have two 7s on the flanks. I think Johnnie Beattie is a quality player, and needs to be involved for Scotland. Suffered from injury then rushed back if I remember, then didn't even make the WC squad. But the point is here, aside from Rennie, I'm not sure how long you can rely on that back row (perhaps I'm being harsh on Denton, but I don't feel he's top drawer). This is being hypercritical, I'll admit, as it's a good back row, with depth and class, and can compete with the best of the European back rows (Wales, Ireland, France).

I think your final sentence sums up my view of our backrow situation very nicely - strength, depth and class. At blindside, Kelly Brown will be back from injury, Stroks was immense on the summer tour and seemed to have recovered his thirst for the game, and Harley is the up&coming talent. Denton at 8 is top-drawer imo, showed well in the 6Ns (topped most of the 8's stats, and showed up well in Edinburgh's Heino challenge), Beattie will hopefully return to form at Montpellier, with Ryan Wilson and Stuart McInally the two younger options. At openside, Rennie has been superb since his return to full-time rugby, Barclay has lost a little of his mojo but is a great bench option as he covers several positions, with young Fusaro there to push them both on.

miaow wrote:9 is a position you seemingly have no problem with, apart from who to pick. Again, loads of options, Lawson, Laidlaw etc. there and thereabouts for a while. So glad Blair has finally come good again in the last two years/18 months. Feared another Dwayne Peel. Anyway, excellent here. Cusiter and Blair are up there with Parra as the most exciting 9s in Europe. Feel these two aren't as lauded as they deserve.

Here's the problem at 10. Whilst Laidlaw has slotted in surprisingly well, I'm not sure how much room for growth there is. That's the point. I feel he's hit his potential. Harsh, since he's been playing 10 for, what, 12 months? But with someone like Jackson, who I think could be a good 10 in the same ways as Flood is, you feel there's much scope for him to get better. And, sadly, there is Laidlaw's size which, as he doesn't make the kind of dazzling, Matthew Morgan-esque/Shane Williams runs/breaks, will always be a weakness. But shouldn't exclude him entirely. Duncan Weir's a Dan Parks option: no running ability, but his boot can save a limited team time and again in absence of any other choice at 10. Possibility of moving him to full back (the reverse of what happened with Paterson in terms of converting the more talented 10 to 15/14 to accommodate the safer option), anyone? Probably doesn't have the pace/size/tackle ability, but it's a thought. His boot is very useful.

I'm happier about our halfback options than I have been for sometime - Blair, Cusiter and Lawson won't be around forever, but can all perform on the big stage, with Laidlaw there most likely replacement. We're a bit thin after that at 9, but we have time to rectify that situation. See above for my thoughts on Laidlaw as a pivot, altho I have more time for Weir than you - watch the Scotland A match against England this year or any of the JWC matches last year, and you will understand that he offers far more than Dan Parks. Hopefully Harry Leonard will mature into a top-class 10 as well, given time.

miaow wrote:Three quarters. Hmmm. This is where the lack of quality is I'm afraid. Nick de Luca is a figure of hate for me, unfairly at times, because I'll admit he can look alright at times. But he's not the answer to top drawer centre play. Ansboro is decent. Shanklin-esque: hard, straight runner, safe, steady, strong. Secure. Lots of s's. Hogg is undoubtedly the future of your back play. But where? I think Max Evans has to be included, I'd like to see him with ball in hand. I'd opt for 12, Ansboro at 13. I rate Morrison as a sort of second-class Jamie Roberts. Depending on style/opponent, those would be my/your 12 and 13 options. Hogg at 15, I think, really like him coming onto the ball from deep. Too young to heap the pressure on/expect miracles at 13. And I think you have good wing options already. The wingers, like the back row, seemed to have many challengers, without anyone standing out as world class. Danielli, Nikki Walker, etc. etc. But now, it seems, you have talent. Please, please stop playing Sean Lamont as a centre. He is not, never has been good enough and never will be. He is dangerous when looking for the ball, and finding it through the middle, ususally 3+ phases in, a la Chris Ashton (or at least any good winger, but that's the one who everyone now associates it with due to poor journalism, and who am I to argue with this...). Which means he gets most luck when in the centre of the pitch. Doesn't make him a centre. So he's in competition with Visser and Jones, plus anyone else waiting in the wings (ooo, more puns). Visser seems to be your golden boy now. Perhaps more of a Dutch orange than gold, but there you go I'd go for Sean and Visser, personally. Jones has time. You also have Sean's brother, Rory, as a 15 if you were to move Hogg to 13/14/11. Which is good. Because he is good.

I think you're up-to-speed with our back-three options, where the preferred choice is probably MacVisser-Hogg-SLamont for the bruising option, MacVisser-Hogg-Jones/Max Evans for the more subtle option. Add in Tom Brown as cover for Hogg, and Rory Lamont and Joe Ansbro as general cover, and I think we're in reasonably good shape at the back. I really want to see Hogg kick on from what he showed in last season's 6Ns, and for MacVisser to bring his defence skills up the same level as his attacking ones. Finally I remain hopeful that the Crusaders' Sean Maitland can be persuaded to chuck his lot in with Scotland and his chances of a NZ cap seem remote still. Bear in mind that Danielli has retired and Walker has likely played his last game for Scotland now that we have MacVisser.

You seem a little out-of-date in the centres tho - expect Matt Scott of Edinburgh to become the fixture at 12 - he is our first genuine, distributing option at 12 that we've had for some time, and will hopefully progress even further this season now that he is no longer burdened by his legal studies at uni. He will be supported by the likes of Alex Dunbar at Glasgow, with De Luca/Grove/Ansbro the options outside them at 13. None of them are the complete package in my view, but equally none of them are awful at international level (if De Luca can cut out his brain-farts). You should expect never to see Morrison or SLamont appear in the Scottish centre, and only occasionally Max Evans.

miaow wrote:I'd say it's a good first team squad, all told. But then, you look at the other 6 Nations squads, and...it's just one notch short of the rest. The French and the English for obvious, depth-related reasons, Wales have now created a world class team in most starting positions, and the Irish have the core of one of, if not the best, club teams in the world, boosted by the world class Munster/Ulster players who, despite, it seems, 'difficult' coaching, and they are still a very good team, capable of being one of the best in the world if they regularly put in the kind of England 2011 and NZ 2012 (2nd Test) performances.

So I'd say that's the problem. It's one every nation is dealing with, trying to improve in the modern, professional way, whilst also trying to get ahead/stay ahead of the other teams as they also progress. You're just short at the moment. Good coaching can overcome this in the short term, but the foundations of the sport will always determine the long term success. Get kids playing etc. Which might help now that your football is having, erm, difficulties...though I can't quite see you getting Easterhouse boys and girls taking to rugby en masse. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'd like to think I am. The less the sport is associated with English public schools, the better, IMO. But anyway. You should have beaten Italy in the 6N, weren't far off getting to the QFs instead of England, and had an encouraging 6N in fits and bursts. Murrayfield threatens so much as a home 'fortress', but seems to fall flat once Scotland go behind. It could be one of the most intimidating stadiums if the crowd got up for it/filled it regularly (and if the running track wasn't there...). I'd say target England, another team going through a transitory process, are most similar to Scotland. That's the target I'd say, trying to match and then better England. Because, talent wise, I don't see vast differences. In all honesty, I don't see Lancaster reaching the next World Cup, and think they will struggle for the next two years to cement a coherent squad, structure and direction, so to usurp England (you're better than Italy, who are still not fully fledged in the professional era, with Aironi losing their license) is the next step. Then will come challenging for the 6N, then winning it, regularly (more than once in 5 years, 3 in 10), and the World Cup will follow. Probably ten years away, in reality. But I won't mock the proposal. Ambitious, yes. Necessary? I'd also say yes. You need a foucs, all teams do. Stick with Robinson as well, is my opinion. If not, get a Southern Hemisphere coach. A good one, with a philosophy, track record and drive that can really transform the country from top to bottom into a competitive nation on the world stage. I think Robinson could do this, given time and support, even with his nationality, which must be put a few supporters off.

So that's it. You're in the money, and that can always help both amateur and professional rugby. Good luck for 2015.

We are still short of international class in couple of positions, but our strength in depth is much improved - we are still behind the other 6Ns, but I'm far happier than I have been for some time about our international prospects. I don't agree with your comment about Wales having "created a world class team in most starting positions", and we showed even in last year's 6Ns that we can cause Wales problems with our quick-offloading game. Turning scoring opportunities into tries is the key for us, and I don't think we're too far behind England (new-ish side/new coaching set-up) or Ireland (struggling to find a game-plan that suits the modern game, and players that don't seem to deliver provincial abilities on the international stage). Cheers

There are very few teams that have world class players - many have players that have world class performances though -

it is easy to fall into the trap thinking they are both the same thing

Even us Scots did, and even Parks have did have one world class performance - although that was diluted by a million not so world class ones

Riskysports wrote:Even us Scots did, and even Parks have did have one world class performance - although that was diluted by a million not so world class ones

Good point, though I can think of three, all from 2010: the tests against Wales (first half, at least), Argentina (1st test) and South Africa - particularly against the Boks you could see the way his tactical kicking demoralised their pack time and again.

Here's a challenge for us:
Nominate a single world-class performance for Graeme Morrison. Give it a go.

If Scotland are to do well I think Ndl is one of the players to change our fortunes

When he's good he's damn good - and now he has his some better players around him I think he may surprise a few people

I rate the guy

I'd still like to see bennet appearing on the horizon though . Is he inside or o/s centre ?

IanBru wrote:

Riskysports wrote:Even us Scots did, and even Parks have did have one world class performance - although that was diluted by a million not so world class ones

Good point, though I can think of three, all from 2010: the tests against Wales (first half, at least), Argentina (1st test) and South Africa - particularly against the Boks you could see the way his tactical kicking demoralised their pack time and again.

Here's a challenge for us:
Nominate a single world-class performance for Graeme Morrison. Give it a go.

he played quite well against the Ozzies 2 years ago

Also, I believe he is a world class water boy - runs straight and fast, and slows down just before contact to give the water to the team - world class judgement of space there

The only game I can remember that Morrison played Well is against Ireland at Croker when we denied them the triple crown in the best match that Scotland have ever played under Robinson.

He caused Darcy untold problems from start to finish.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:miaow, thanks for putting all this work into an analysis of the Scottish team from an outside perspective - it is appreciated. I'll aim to give you some reasoned replies below:

miaow wrote:

drsambo1928 wrote:typical Scottish optimisum (sp)

That made me laugh, tbf. Goes against the pessimistic, dour stereotype.



Apologies in advance, this is a long one, but I'd love to have some Scottish feedback...

I think the 6 Nations, in terms of results for Scotland, didn't do them justice. At least, it didn't do justice to the fact they have a very, very good coach in Robinson, who, if given enough time, can make them competitive again. And that's happening/happened. Yeah, the Australia game was somewhat fortuitous in that they were playing a team who had rested several big names in order to cope with two Tests in four days, in terrible, 'Northern Hemisphere rugby conditions', but they won. In Australia. Beating Fiji should be expected, but Samoa are a good team, and to beat them on their own patch is a great result.

It is true that we came close in several 6Ns games, and arguably should have won a few, but that's simply not good enough at this level of competitive sport - 'moral victories' count for jack, and we should never accept them as a substitute for the real thing. I'm not sure that I'd agree with your assessment of Robinson's coaching abilities - much has been written on this topic before, but in essence his selection skills are poor at best, picking players lacking form, sticking to old favourites, playing players out of position, etc., and to be honest, despite our 'successful' SH summer tour, I'd prefer that we start our drive towards RWC with a new coach. However, that's not going to happen, and instead we'll have a new coaching team, notably Scott Johnston as attack coach and Matt Taylor in charge of defence. It will be interesting to see what they bring to the party. I don't entirely agree with you about the Australian game - we can only play the side that is put out against us, and 15 of the 22 names that subsequently faced Wales were in common, so I don't believe it was that much weakened. No question the weather played in our favour relative to what we are used to, but as you'll remember from the 6Ns, Scotland's preferred gameplan today is a high-tempo off-loading game (not always successful, but at least you can see the multiple phases, etc.), so the weather did not play to us in that respect. You are right about Fiji and Samoa too, and I would only add that neither is an 'easy' destination for any 6Ns touring team.

miaow wrote:I think Laidlaw is an excellent find/conversion (if you'll excuse the pun). I still think you struggle in the certain areas though, in both quality and depths. There doesn't seem to be a core in the pack: you have an abundance of talent in the back and front rows, but it seems to be three new faces in each every sixth months. Since Euan Murray's withdrawal from putting his sport first, there's no one to really anchor at 3. Ross Ford is a good hooker, someone to build around, though perhaps not as captain, and Jacobsen has the mentality, 'heart' and effort you wish players with twice his talent would exude. But you need that anchor at 3. And you're not exactly on your own in that respect, in both world and club rugby.

Like any international side (except perhaps NZ), we're going to have areas of strength and weakness. We've introduced a lot of new faces recently, but that was more than needed to freshen up a stale/disinterested group imo, and I expect us to have a fairly settled squad for some time to come. Laidlaw will provide the tactical direction for the side, and altho I don't believe he is our long-term option at 10, he more often than not makes the right decision and has a very good rugby brain - there are weakness to his game in terms of tactical kicking (which can be worked upon) and defence (altho he lacks not in courage), but he's still the right choice for the next wee while until, most likely, Duncan Weir comes thru as our pivot of choice.

In terms of the front row, we have been scuppered for Bug Euge's decision regarding his faith and his loss of form, but he seemed to have found his feet on the summer tour and has recovered a hunger for the game. Moray Low and Geoff Cross can at least provide cover there. On the loosehead side, i believe that Chunk's time at international level has passed, and that Ryan Grant (who wore the shirt admirably down under) and Jon Welsh are the longer-term options at 1 - both decent scrummagers and get stuck in around the park - just what you want from your looseheads. At hooker, Fordy is pretty much the complete package, altho his darts are still vulnerable to the odd lapse. The coming of age of Pat MacArthur should provide him with some competition and spur him on to greater things. I'm not convinced that he is our right choice for captain.

miaow wrote:The second rows, Gray especially, are top drawer. I'd make Gray captain, first at club level, then for Scotland. You know he's going to be around for years, and there are few in the team who you can say that for. I rate Kellock and Hamilton, in different ways. Who is there beyond these three?

I'd consider Gray for captain, and like you, I'm fairly comfortable with our options in the boiler-room, even beyond the 3 you mention. Fraser MacKenzie and Tom Ryder can play a fair bit, and there's a couple of decent youngsters coming thru, Grant Gilchrist at Embra, Nick Campbell at Glasgow, and Gray's little brother, Jonny, is now in the Glasgow academy.

miaow wrote:Again, in the back row, you have a plethora of nearly men: Beattie, Vernon, Hogg, Simon Taylor etc (perhaps a bit in the past with the last two, but I hope you get the point). No one seems to nail the shirt. Now you've got a Saffa, in Denton, at 8, with Strokosch and Barclay alternating at 6, and Rennie, the out and out poacher, which you've needed, Rennie at 7. Although it hurts, because he's a classy player, and one I rate, I'd drop Barclay to the bench. You need that muscle, and can't have two 7s on the flanks. I think Johnnie Beattie is a quality player, and needs to be involved for Scotland. Suffered from injury then rushed back if I remember, then didn't even make the WC squad. But the point is here, aside from Rennie, I'm not sure how long you can rely on that back row (perhaps I'm being harsh on Denton, but I don't feel he's top drawer). This is being hypercritical, I'll admit, as it's a good back row, with depth and class, and can compete with the best of the European back rows (Wales, Ireland, France).

I think your final sentence sums up my view of our backrow situation very nicely - strength, depth and class. At blindside, Kelly Brown will be back from injury, Stroks was immense on the summer tour and seemed to have recovered his thirst for the game, and Harley is the up&coming talent. Denton at 8 is top-drawer imo, showed well in the 6Ns (topped most of the 8's stats, and showed up well in Edinburgh's Heino challenge), Beattie will hopefully return to form at Montpellier, with Ryan Wilson and Stuart McInally the two younger options. At openside, Rennie has been superb since his return to full-time rugby, Barclay has lost a little of his mojo but is a great bench option as he covers several positions, with young Fusaro there to push them both on.

miaow wrote:9 is a position you seemingly have no problem with, apart from who to pick. Again, loads of options, Lawson, Laidlaw etc. there and thereabouts for a while. So glad Blair has finally come good again in the last two years/18 months. Feared another Dwayne Peel. Anyway, excellent here. Cusiter and Blair are up there with Parra as the most exciting 9s in Europe. Feel these two aren't as lauded as they deserve.

Here's the problem at 10. Whilst Laidlaw has slotted in surprisingly well, I'm not sure how much room for growth there is. That's the point. I feel he's hit his potential. Harsh, since he's been playing 10 for, what, 12 months? But with someone like Jackson, who I think could be a good 10 in the same ways as Flood is, you feel there's much scope for him to get better. And, sadly, there is Laidlaw's size which, as he doesn't make the kind of dazzling, Matthew Morgan-esque/Shane Williams runs/breaks, will always be a weakness. But shouldn't exclude him entirely. Duncan Weir's a Dan Parks option: no running ability, but his boot can save a limited team time and again in absence of any other choice at 10. Possibility of moving him to full back (the reverse of what happened with Paterson in terms of converting the more talented 10 to 15/14 to accommodate the safer option), anyone? Probably doesn't have the pace/size/tackle ability, but it's a thought. His boot is very useful.

I'm happier about our halfback options than I have been for sometime - Blair, Cusiter and Lawson won't be around forever, but can all perform on the big stage, with Laidlaw there most likely replacement. We're a bit thin after that at 9, but we have time to rectify that situation. See above for my thoughts on Laidlaw as a pivot, altho I have more time for Weir than you - watch the Scotland A match against England this year or any of the JWC matches last year, and you will understand that he offers far more than Dan Parks. Hopefully Harry Leonard will mature into a top-class 10 as well, given time.

miaow wrote:Three quarters. Hmmm. This is where the lack of quality is I'm afraid. Nick de Luca is a figure of hate for me, unfairly at times, because I'll admit he can look alright at times. But he's not the answer to top drawer centre play. Ansboro is decent. Shanklin-esque: hard, straight runner, safe, steady, strong. Secure. Lots of s's. Hogg is undoubtedly the future of your back play. But where? I think Max Evans has to be included, I'd like to see him with ball in hand. I'd opt for 12, Ansboro at 13. I rate Morrison as a sort of second-class Jamie Roberts. Depending on style/opponent, those would be my/your 12 and 13 options. Hogg at 15, I think, really like him coming onto the ball from deep. Too young to heap the pressure on/expect miracles at 13. And I think you have good wing options already. The wingers, like the back row, seemed to have many challengers, without anyone standing out as world class. Danielli, Nikki Walker, etc. etc. But now, it seems, you have talent. Please, please stop playing Sean Lamont as a centre. He is not, never has been good enough and never will be. He is dangerous when looking for the ball, and finding it through the middle, ususally 3+ phases in, a la Chris Ashton (or at least any good winger, but that's the one who everyone now associates it with due to poor journalism, and who am I to argue with this...). Which means he gets most luck when in the centre of the pitch. Doesn't make him a centre. So he's in competition with Visser and Jones, plus anyone else waiting in the wings (ooo, more puns). Visser seems to be your golden boy now. Perhaps more of a Dutch orange than gold, but there you go I'd go for Sean and Visser, personally. Jones has time. You also have Sean's brother, Rory, as a 15 if you were to move Hogg to 13/14/11. Which is good. Because he is good.

I think you're up-to-speed with our back-three options, where the preferred choice is probably MacVisser-Hogg-SLamont for the bruising option, MacVisser-Hogg-Jones/Max Evans for the more subtle option. Add in Tom Brown as cover for Hogg, and Rory Lamont and Joe Ansbro as general cover, and I think we're in reasonably good shape at the back. I really want to see Hogg kick on from what he showed in last season's 6Ns, and for MacVisser to bring his defence skills up the same level as his attacking ones. Finally I remain hopeful that the Crusaders' Sean Maitland can be persuaded to chuck his lot in with Scotland and his chances of a NZ cap seem remote still. Bear in mind that Danielli has retired and Walker has likely played his last game for Scotland now that we have MacVisser.

You seem a little out-of-date in the centres tho - expect Matt Scott of Edinburgh to become the fixture at 12 - he is our first genuine, distributing option at 12 that we've had for some time, and will hopefully progress even further this season now that he is no longer burdened by his legal studies at uni. He will be supported by the likes of Alex Dunbar at Glasgow, with De Luca/Grove/Ansbro the options outside them at 13. None of them are the complete package in my view, but equally none of them are awful at international level (if De Luca can cut out his brain-farts). You should expect never to see Morrison or SLamont appear in the Scottish centre, and only occasionally Max Evans.

miaow wrote:I'd say it's a good first team squad, all told. But then, you look at the other 6 Nations squads, and...it's just one notch short of the rest. The French and the English for obvious, depth-related reasons, Wales have now created a world class team in most starting positions, and the Irish have the core of one of, if not the best, club teams in the world, boosted by the world class Munster/Ulster players who, despite, it seems, 'difficult' coaching, and they are still a very good team, capable of being one of the best in the world if they regularly put in the kind of England 2011 and NZ 2012 (2nd Test) performances.

So I'd say that's the problem. It's one every nation is dealing with, trying to improve in the modern, professional way, whilst also trying to get ahead/stay ahead of the other teams as they also progress. You're just short at the moment. Good coaching can overcome this in the short term, but the foundations of the sport will always determine the long term success. Get kids playing etc. Which might help now that your football is having, erm, difficulties...though I can't quite see you getting Easterhouse boys and girls taking to rugby en masse. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'd like to think I am. The less the sport is associated with English public schools, the better, IMO. But anyway. You should have beaten Italy in the 6N, weren't far off getting to the QFs instead of England, and had an encouraging 6N in fits and bursts. Murrayfield threatens so much as a home 'fortress', but seems to fall flat once Scotland go behind. It could be one of the most intimidating stadiums if the crowd got up for it/filled it regularly (and if the running track wasn't there...). I'd say target England, another team going through a transitory process, are most similar to Scotland. That's the target I'd say, trying to match and then better England. Because, talent wise, I don't see vast differences. In all honesty, I don't see Lancaster reaching the next World Cup, and think they will struggle for the next two years to cement a coherent squad, structure and direction, so to usurp England (you're better than Italy, who are still not fully fledged in the professional era, with Aironi losing their license) is the next step. Then will come challenging for the 6N, then winning it, regularly (more than once in 5 years, 3 in 10), and the World Cup will follow. Probably ten years away, in reality. But I won't mock the proposal. Ambitious, yes. Necessary? I'd also say yes. You need a foucs, all teams do. Stick with Robinson as well, is my opinion. If not, get a Southern Hemisphere coach. A good one, with a philosophy, track record and drive that can really transform the country from top to bottom into a competitive nation on the world stage. I think Robinson could do this, given time and support, even with his nationality, which must be put a few supporters off.

So that's it. You're in the money, and that can always help both amateur and professional rugby. Good luck for 2015.

We are still short of international class in couple of positions, but our strength in depth is much improved - we are still behind the other 6Ns, but I'm far happier than I have been for some time about our international prospects. I don't agree with your comment about Wales having "created a world class team in most starting positions", and we showed even in last year's 6Ns that we can cause Wales problems with our quick-offloading game. Turning scoring opportunities into tries is the key for us, and I don't think we're too far behind England (new-ish side/new coaching set-up) or Ireland (struggling to find a game-plan that suits the modern game, and players that don't seem to deliver provincial abilities on the international stage). Cheers

What an interesting, comprehensive and non-argumentative discussion! Everything seems to be covered but as someone who only posts on here once every few months, I'm going to stick my nose in and make a few points!

1: I'm more concerned than you about the scrum half situation; Blair and Lawson will be playing second division rugby next season and I expect Laidlaw to continue playing mostly at 10. That leaves us with only Cusiter playing regular top flight rugby at SH, we'll be praying he stays fit! Hopefully McConnell gets game time at Glasgow and improves quickly.

2: Sorry but I think you're dreaming if you think Sean Maitland will ever play for Scotland. He's shown no interest whatsoever, in fact I think he might even have said he isn't interested. I don't think we should be begging people to play for us if they don't show any passion for it, and I don't think he could be persuaded anyway.

3: Getting more people from different backgrounds interested in rugby is key for long term success. You're right to say it has a public school image, and the unfortunate truth is a lot of working class Scots wouldn't be seen dead playing or watching it. The SRU are now beginning to make efforts to get rugby into more schools and traditionally non-rugby playing areas though. Miaow, it's interesting that you should mention Easterhouse. Easterhouse Panthers are a half-decent (by Scottish standards) Rugby League team, and in the last couple of years a few of their youngsters have gone on to join Super League academies (Hull FC and Hull KR): http://www.scotsman.com/sport/now_hull_kr_sign_up_kid_from_easterhouse_panthers_1_1503446 http://www.easterhousepanthers.co.uk/showNews.php?id=297 . I know it's not union but it's encouraging that kids in Glasgow's East End are showing interest in sports other than football, and it shows that there is talent there. In Union, Glasgow East RFC are a fairly recently formed club who have made great strides in getting kids from the same areas involved in rugby http://www.scotsman.com/sport/community_spirit_behind_glasgow_east_success_story_1_1667774 . So there is definitely progress happening and hopefully in a few years time we might see some professionals coming through from these projects.

alive555 wrote:If Scotland are to do well I think Ndl is one of the players to change our fortunes

When he's good he's damn good - and now he has his some better players around him I think he may surprise a few people

I rate the guy

I'd still like to see bennet appearing on the horizon though . Is he inside or o/s centre ?

He's an outside centre most definitely. From what I've seen he's got good pace, a good step and decent hands. Needs to work on his defense but if he can get top flight rugby somewhere, he should put up a challenge.

Agree that NDL is going to be an important player this season. Hopefully Ben Cairns can also get fit and get back to his old self, just to provide a challenge to NDL.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The only game I can remember that Morrison played Well is against Ireland at Croker when we denied them the triple crown in the best match that Scotland have ever played under Robinson.

He caused Darcy untold problems from start to finish.

Agreed - certainly his best game. One of the few games where he hit contact like he really meant it. Caused them massive problems.

He also set up Danielli for a try against Italy in the 6 Nations one year with a most unlikely offload, as if the spirit of Jannick Jauzion briefly invaded his body.

Other than that, pedestrian mediocrity delivered consistently.

The game against Ireland was Scotlands better game but they rarely play like that, if they start to show more Croker performances then sure, six nations is on the cards.