Same old, same old

Note: Before I begin, a quick word to say that when I use the word "you" I don't mean anyone on here in particular, I'm going on about the FA and the media.

I've just visited the BBC Sport website and found a few articles bemoaning England's "failure at yet another major tournament". The fact is, you don't learn. I hear it major tournament after major tournament, all the lame "need to improve grassroots football" moaning but the fact is, no one does. What has actually been achieved since humiliation at the hands of Germany 2 years ago? Banning the use of full size pitches until a certain age? Wow, that's a huge step.

Even the headline of an article on the BBC Website has riled me. "Euro 2012: England must learn from familiar failings after exit". Really? The same "familiar" failings after every tournament since god knows when?

Chris Waddle summed it up for me. "We can't pass it from A to B. " No, you can't. Sorry, but hoofing the ball up to Andy Carroll does not work at international level. I'm not suggesting for a minute you need to start playing like Spain. Frankly, I'm against that. It's very successful but it bores me to tears as a neutral fan. Take a leaf out of Germany's book: They have possession and they use it but they actually play the ball forward instead of irritating tippy-tappy football.

Defensively, England are reasonably sound. Good goalkeeper, decent defenders and a lot of defensive youngsters coming through, such as Jones, Smalling, Bertrand, Richards, Walker etc. But going forward, aside from Rooney (and he wasn't match fit in this tournament), where is the world class player? There isn't. Who is the dominating midfield presence? Spain have Xavi and Iniesta, Germany have Schweinsteiger and Khedira, Holland have Sneijder and Van Bommel, Italy have Pirlo and Marchisio. England? Gerrard and Parker. I bet everyone is quaking in their boots when they come up against Scott Parker. As decent as he's been, he's not got the legs after a long season. "But we were missing Gareth Barry" I've heard England fans saying. Missing Gareth Barry? Spain and Germany must be laughing when they hear the words "missing Gareth Barry".

And John Barnes goes on to say "Roy Hodgson did 100% the right thing in the way he approached Euro 2012" but then he says "We are tactically (and technically) inferior. " Aren't the tactics the job of the manager? So how does Roy do it 100% right but get tactics wrong? Anyway, that's another story. I'm not against Roy, I actually like him.

Personally, I think it's your lack of players that can pass it. Simple as that. Most England players I've seen can't wait to get rid of the ball. Very few players look comfortable in possession. Maybe it's the formation, I don't know, but you need a Scholes in the midfield to keep everything ticking over. You were horribly out possessed by Italy, who were horribly out possessed by Spain in the group stages. England v Spain may well have been a hiding.

Is the future bright? "There are signs English football is following. The FA has driven through its overhaul of youth football to encourage small-sided games. Premier League clubs have the new academy system that will allow the construction of residential bases and more training hours, while St George's Park will generate more and better coaches." Time will tell.

I'll have one final word. Please, please, stop going on about not learning from past failures. It's said too often it's now clichéd. The media love it. Stop complaining because you don't do anything about it. Frankly, it does my head in. Either do something about it or shut up. Jurgen spoke sense 2 years ago. No one listened. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8789682.stm

Source article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18579009

Spain have Xavi and Iniesta, Germany have Schweinsteiger and Khedira, Holland have Sneijder and Van Bommel, Italy have Pirlo and Marchisio. England? Gerrard and Parker.

lol

Its like England are challenging themselves to see how bad its possible to play while getting some results.

Good thread TSC

TSC wrote:Personally, I think it's your lack of players that can pass it. Simple as that. Most England players I've seen can't wait to get rid of the ball. Very few players look comfortable in possession. Maybe it's the formation, I don't know, but you need a Scholes in the midfield to keep everything ticking over. You were horribly out possessed by Italy, who were horribly out possessed by Spain in the group stages. England v Spain may well have been a hiding.

Scholes and Carrick dominated the passing stats playing for Utd while international level may hae been a step up would they not have been better additions than Henderson or Kelly to the squad?

marty2086 wrote:

TSC wrote:Personally, I think it's your lack of players that can pass it. Simple as that. Most England players I've seen can't wait to get rid of the ball. Very few players look comfortable in possession. Maybe it's the formation, I don't know, but you need a Scholes in the midfield to keep everything ticking over. You were horribly out possessed by Italy, who were horribly out possessed by Spain in the group stages. England v Spain may well have been a hiding.

Scholes and Carrick dominated the passing stats playing for Utd while international level may hae been a step up would they not have been better additions than Henderson or Kelly to the squad?

Henderson and Kelly sat on the bench the whole tournament, apart from a few minutes for Henderson. There's no point bringing Scholes and Carrick who are the end of their careers as bench-warmers, may as well give experience to those who will be involved in the international set up in the future.

Not forgetting the fact that Carrick was offered the position that Henderson had on the standby list but refused it, had he not, he'd have been going to Euro 2012.

marty2086 wrote:

TSC wrote:Personally, I think it's your lack of players that can pass it. Simple as that. Most England players I've seen can't wait to get rid of the ball. Very few players look comfortable in possession. Maybe it's the formation, I don't know, but you need a Scholes in the midfield to keep everything ticking over. You were horribly out possessed by Italy, who were horribly out possessed by Spain in the group stages. England v Spain may well have been a hiding.

Scholes and Carrick dominated the passing stats playing for Utd while international level may hae been a step up would they not have been better additions than Henderson or Kelly to the squad?

Rooney and Welbeck dominated the scoring charts for Utd but weren't good enough for England to get past the Q-Final stages.

Crimey wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TSC wrote:Personally, I think it's your lack of players that can pass it. Simple as that. Most England players I've seen can't wait to get rid of the ball. Very few players look comfortable in possession. Maybe it's the formation, I don't know, but you need a Scholes in the midfield to keep everything ticking over. You were horribly out possessed by Italy, who were horribly out possessed by Spain in the group stages. England v Spain may well have been a hiding.

Scholes and Carrick dominated the passing stats playing for Utd while international level may hae been a step up would they not have been better additions than Henderson or Kelly to the squad?

Henderson and Kelly sat on the bench the whole tournament, apart from a few minutes for Henderson. There's no point bringing Scholes and Carrick who are the end of their careers as bench-warmers, may as well give experience to those who will be involved in the international set up in the future.

Not forgetting the fact that Carrick was offered the position that Henderson had on the standby list but refused it, had he not, he'd have been going to Euro 2012.

Im making the case for them to be starters, I think in a 5 man midfield with Gerrard would have been a more than capable unit and given them a better edge when it comes to possession. I think Carrick has got fed up with being looked down on he was better than Gerrard all season and got overlooked and then is omitted from the squad when Rooney goes and cant play in games and other like Chamberlain have played about 90mins all season

Hibbz wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TSC wrote:Personally, I think it's your lack of players that can pass it. Simple as that. Most England players I've seen can't wait to get rid of the ball. Very few players look comfortable in possession. Maybe it's the formation, I don't know, but you need a Scholes in the midfield to keep everything ticking over. You were horribly out possessed by Italy, who were horribly out possessed by Spain in the group stages. England v Spain may well have been a hiding.

Scholes and Carrick dominated the passing stats playing for Utd while international level may hae been a step up would they not have been better additions than Henderson or Kelly to the squad?

Rooney and Welbeck dominated the scoring charts for Utd but weren't good enough for England to get past the Q-Final stages.

I'd suggest that has more to do with not having Nani, Valencia, Scholes, Carrick and Hernandez in and around them while playing a defensive 4-4-2 hoof it into the channels for Welbeck to chase/head on all night. That and the fact that Utd tend to play with a lot of posession that builds pressure.

TSC i kind off agree with with some of what you say-But not the overriding sentiment.

Any change at grass roots level will realistically take 8 plus years to bear fruit. They made change 2 years ago by all acoounts- maybe we need more change- however fact is we wont see that benefit yet!

Gonna be honest with you and say you need to stop reading media artciles if is really gets on your nerves to much. Dont let it bother you. Fact is england need some change at grass roots, weteher we have changed it enough or not we will find out down the line(and 8 years at least!!)

I've never understand the hysteria regarding England when the are eliminated from a major tournament, they are no-where near the best teams in the World or even just Europe and never have been since Mexico in 1970

England are a perenial Quarter Final team, no more no less, only three times in their history have they bettered that and two of those where held in England where they played every single game at Wembly i.e Home, only on one occassion have England ever got further than the Quarter Final's on foreign soil so I've never bought into the mass hysteria or the 'autopsy' of yet another failure

They did well, won a couple of games, topped their group and got eliminated without being beaten in 90 minutes (or 120)

Where they outplayed by the Italians? No doubt, they are a better footballing Nation, always have been, why should that suddenly change? If you recall their first game, they've been the only team so far to actually live with Spain

What hysteria do you mean?

There's been some right ridiculous stuff said since England's exit, on forums, on the radio, on the TV

Hodgson out... That's Hysteria, a manager who has what? Won 4 and drew 2 of his first sex games in charge, a guy who by all accounts created a very serttled and happy atmosphere

All the 'Analytical Experts' on TV/Radio/Websites/Social Media telling us what went wrong and what needs to be done to fix it, as the title of thread says, same old same old!

Roy couldn't do anything to improve the technique of the english players. No movement = no hope. The days of hoping that a flick on from a big lump up field lands on your little guy are over and hopefully never to return.

Keep the freaking ball and pass it to your team mate. Ray WIlkins was criticised and called a crab )always moved sideways). His response is that you dont lose a game if you have the ball. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

the-gaffer wrote:There's been some right ridiculous stuff said since England's exit, on forums, on the radio, on the TV

Hodgson out... That's Hysteria, a manager who has what? Won 4 and drew 2 of his first sex games in charge, a guy who by all accounts created a very serttled and happy atmosphere

All the 'Analytical Experts' on TV/Radio/Websites/Social Media telling us what went wrong and what needs to be done to fix it, as the title of thread says, same old same old!

gonna be honest and say your reaction is hysteria, you really do sound hysterial. this has been possibly the most low key exit ever. If you dont understand how the media works by now then maybe you should hide yourself away for a month or two. This has been the most low key footy tourny i can remember. lol we get media on z listers going to the toilet ffs.. just clam down and forget about it. Make your own opinions..

TSC has made a pretty ridiculas point that poeple are still going on about grass roots 2 years later!! does he really think a change at grass roots level will take two years to surfice!!

azania wrote:Roy couldn't do anything to improve the technique of the english players. No movement = no hope. The days of hoping that a flick on from a big lump up field lands on your little guy are over and hopefully never to return.

Keep the freaking ball and pass it to your team mate. Ray WIlkins was criticised and called a crab )always moved sideways). His response is that you dont lose a game if you have the ball. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

I deal in facts, you are correct that our technique is below par.

however you dont lose games if you defend 100% effectively, just like you dont win games if you only keep the ball. Its about scoring more than the opposition.

England need to just fix at grass roots and wait, because winning or drawing isnt good enough- only one team can win a tourny every two years. But to get the media,fans,players, manager more happy about the performnace teams have to play half decent footy. Forget winning, think decent football.

After every one of hodgsons games no one felt good about the way england played.

If england had won that italy game on pens- English fans would have been embarrased anyway. Winning isnt even the important factor here, its how you win , or more importantly how you play

My reaction? very good

There is no doubting it was a low key exit, what did you expect though? England went there and didn't give anyone much hope, it was probably their most low key arrival at a major tournament, a lot of people thought they would struggle to get out the group and pre tournament saw group qualification as success, they didn't just qualify but topped the group, the problem is that the English media then decided to totally forget all the pre tournament worry and started to push thebelief that 'this was the year' and many fans like yourself lapped it up and the responses to the predictable elimination are just the same old tired excuses that are rolled out every two years

Tell me this, England have only made it past the Quarter Final once in their history on foreign soil, what makes or made you think this would be any different?

I see a direct comparison between England and The Old Firm, both believe they are big teams/nations with international reputations.

Truth is both are considerably less important/feared/respected than they think.

The gaffer i am not sure how you came to the conclusion that i expected any thing different

If england had won that italy game on pens- English fans would have been embarrased anyway. Winning isnt even the important factor here, its how you win , or more importantly how you play

That's nonsense to be honest, if England won everybody would be saying it was the unbreakable spirit Roy has created and 'winning ugly' is the sign of Champions

There is only one way that's the right way, that's the winning way

That stuff you said is what Lionel Messi said the other day, when your as good as Messi then that's an off the cuff remark, the great thing about football is that not every player is at the same level of ability, so to counter that coaches have the ability to choose a style of their liking to play against certain teams, it's what makes football interesting

Arsenal keep the bell better than the majority of teams in England, they pass and move better than anyone else in the league, they can be a real joy to watch, how many Arsenal players do you think are content with an empty medal haul simply because they live in the knowledge that they 'play thr right way'?

The question is more about why did you expect anything different from our media- and i am kind of glad that it isnt same old same old- its very low key in comparision to other tournies- infact it was even low key in 2010.
In many past tournies englands media and fanbase have concentrated post tourny on unjust decisions or the lottery of pens etc etc.

In 2010 and 2012 the media/fans have actually not even really looked into key moments or luck events(lamps goal, or pens this time). Its all been about us not being good enough, which is very refreashing IMO.

we are not looking to blame anyone but ourselves and that is progress IMO.

the-gaffer wrote:

If england had won that italy game on pens- English fans would have been embarrased anyway. Winning isnt even the important factor here, its how you win , or more importantly how you play

That's nonsense to be honest, if England won everybody would be saying it was the unbreakable spirit Roy has created and 'winning ugly' is the sign of Champions

There is only one way that's the right way, that's the winning way

That stuff you said is what Lionel Messi said the other day, when your as good as Messi then that's an off the cuff remark, the great thing about football is that not every player is at the same level of ability, so to counter that coaches have the ability to choose a style of their liking to play against certain teams, it's what makes football interesting

Arsenal keep the bell better than the majority of teams in England, they pass and move better than anyone else in the league, they can be a real joy to watch, how many Arsenal players do you think are content with an empty medal haul simply because they live in the knowledge that they 'play thr right way'?

what you need to understand is that england fans and media just need to feel proud of there football again- winning is such a long shot in football even if your great. Its all about playing decent, thats the first step- winning ugly is so low percentage that its not even worth talking about. Greece have done it- That may not happen again in another 100 years.

You bring up arsernal, they dont play the right way do they. Are you telling me that man u or city play ugly!!! because they dont.. Your totally missing the point. England need to look at a germany, a bayern , a man u way of playing, not a spain,barca,arsernal or france way!! all effective but very different- the arsernal isnt the right way as you say!!

I never said Arsenal play the right way, that's the general perception though, do Man Utd play ugly? Well plenty of United fans thought the 2010/11 title winning season was the most underwhelming Title victory of all Alex Ferguson's sides and Manchester City played some wonderful stuff during this season but they where a minute away from being lambasted for their away form which they where branded negative for in many games

Teams do win ugly, they lose ugly too however it's only when they lose that it becomes a problem

the-gaffer wrote:There's been some right ridiculous stuff said since England's exit, on forums, on the radio, on the TV

Hodgson out... That's Hysteria, a manager who has what? Won 4 and drew 2 of his first sex games in charge, a guy who by all accounts created a very serttled and happy atmosphere

All the 'Analytical Experts' on TV/Radio/Websites/Social Media telling us what went wrong and what needs to be done to fix it, as the title of thread says, same old same old!

Think thats Sven your talking about

Englands ugly and man u's ugly are of polar opposites gaffer.

Sometimes you need to play ugly to win a one off game.

lets look at chelsea- they had tyo play ugly to beat barca, they had to play ugly to beat bayern- but they played beautiful football in games before that when they where allowed to open up!

England played ugly against 6 teams ranked below them!!! thats the problem.

Also do you know what. arsernal is quite a good example in this. Arsernal fans do have something to hold on to- just like spain did before 2008. They had/have a shared belief that football is more than winning or losing things in the short term

England have won zip in recent years, neither has arsernal in relative recent club years- but at least arsernal fans can be proud of the way they play. Spain stuck by there system of football and eventually it did pay dividneds

Many people say England vs Sweden was the game of the tournament, if that didn't excite you as a fan then nothing will

Holland have one of the best grass root set-ups in the World, their fans and media are not content with how they play, they want to win

mystiroakey wrote:Also do you know what. arsernal is quite a good example in this. Arsernal fans do have something to hold on to- just like spain did before 2008. They had/have a shared belief that football is more than winning or losing things in the short term

England have won zip in recent years, neither has arsernal in relative recent club years- but at least arsernal fans can be proud of the way they play. Spain stuck by there system of football and eventually it did pay dividneds

I used Arsenal as an example for that very reason!

Any honest Arsenal fan will tell you they would swap all of their 'proud' football for a league title next season

I thought it also was the game of the tourny, brilliaqnt prem football. However it only became great when sweden got into us and then we hit back..

Thats only gonna happen when you have sweden v england though. What other teams play in that way.

Holland have the grass roots gaffer, they also have the players, they dont have the correct attitude.

England did very well this time around with there attitude, but england havent got the minerals. Your points arnt helping your argument to be honest.

We need both its not one or the other

the-gaffer wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Also do you know what. arsernal is quite a good example in this. Arsernal fans do have something to hold on to- just like spain did before 2008. They had/have a shared belief that football is more than winning or losing things in the short term

England have won zip in recent years, neither has arsernal in relative recent club years- but at least arsernal fans can be proud of the way they play. Spain stuck by there system of football and eventually it did pay dividneds

I used Arsenal as an example for that very reason!

Any honest Arsenal fan will tell you they would swap all of their 'proud' football for a league title next season

Your missing the point gaffer. Arsernal wouldnt look at englands style to win the league!!!

but at the same time imagine spain switched there way of playing pre 2008!

England are not a man u or a germany. We play football that we are embarrased off win or lose

It's irrelevant. Arsenals style won't win the league, and Englands style (and talent) won't get them past a QF. It's a circular argument.

True SR thats why i am saying England shouldnt even be looking at short term tourny wins , because it wont happen . We need to just start playing nice football, trust a style and a system and get on with it. But obviously look alot more long term and really work out what the heck is going on with all the money the FA make at grass roots level

I find it hard to believe though that professional footballers can't pass or retain the ball. It's not a difficult skill.

I think it must be to them SR.

If you notice the difference with england and any team we have played recently.(all 6 of them under hodgson- some not great teams at all)

England have retained shape, so its the reverse of the spainish/barca style of get the ball back within 10 seconds. Our players go back to there positions and dont try to win the ball back. Our opponents go the spainish root and give us less space.

So in a way england allow much more time for our opposition to pass around, and they look even better than they are!! whereas england are straight away under the cosh and have less space and time to pass when we get the ball.

However our system does work to a certain degree!!!- even v italy.

But it looks horrid- its embarrasing. blimey i would have felt much better losing 3-2 in that game and having some time on the ball!

CAn't see England changing enough, even over the course of a generation to be anymore successful. They are simply too far behind countries.

I think they'll always be second rate.

we can change just like any country can and does- it all goes in cycles. its the way it is. as with all sport though its all about getting it right from the start.
England has the advantage of having a masive fan base, player pool and alot of money. We just have to start using those resources better.

The problem I have is that they AGAIN looked frightened to have a go. Come August, these same players will be overlapping down the wings, zipping in crosses, passing, moving and playing with confidence.

We could have given Italy a good game if we had played in an attacking manner and given Pirlo something to think about by getting up his ar.e

exactly stella.. reatining shape is one thing. but lets be honest even if we won that game we would have been a little bit embarrased by it..

I hope hodge doesnt stick with this retaining shape game. it will get us qualified with ease for 2014- but we will just keep doing the same thing every tourny

Stella wrote:The problem I have is that they AGAIN looked frightened to have a go. Come August, these same players will be overlapping down the wings, zipping in crosses, passing, moving and playing with confidence.

We could have given Italy a good game if we had played in an attacking manner and given Pirlo something to think about by getting up his ar.e

The problem is you know that have a bad game in the Premier League, make a mistake, be too adventurous and you can make up for it next week. In tournament football, the panic sets in.

Crimey wrote:

Stella wrote:The problem I have is that they AGAIN looked frightened to have a go. Come August, these same players will be overlapping down the wings, zipping in crosses, passing, moving and playing with confidence.

We could have given Italy a good game if we had played in an attacking manner and given Pirlo something to think about by getting up his ar.e

The problem is you know that have a bad game in the Premier League, make a mistake, be too adventurous and you can make up for it next week. In tournament football, the panic sets in.

Good point but I've seen many a FA Cup tie where both teams take a chance.

Let's be honest, this slow methodical play is not only boring but unsuccessful as well.

Stella wrote:

Crimey wrote:

Stella wrote:The problem I have is that they AGAIN looked frightened to have a go. Come August, these same players will be overlapping down the wings, zipping in crosses, passing, moving and playing with confidence.

We could have given Italy a good game if we had played in an attacking manner and given Pirlo something to think about by getting up his ar.e

The problem is you know that have a bad game in the Premier League, make a mistake, be too adventurous and you can make up for it next week. In tournament football, the panic sets in.

Good point but I've seen many a FA Cup tie where both teams take a chance.

Let's be honest, this slow methodical play is not only boring but unsuccessful as well.

The pressure in an FA Cup tie would never be the same in an international game though.

Crimey wrote:

Stella wrote:

Crimey wrote:

Stella wrote:The problem I have is that they AGAIN looked frightened to have a go. Come August, these same players will be overlapping down the wings, zipping in crosses, passing, moving and playing with confidence.

We could have given Italy a good game if we had played in an attacking manner and given Pirlo something to think about by getting up his ar.e

The problem is you know that have a bad game in the Premier League, make a mistake, be too adventurous and you can make up for it next week. In tournament football, the panic sets in.

Good point but I've seen many a FA Cup tie where both teams take a chance.

Let's be honest, this slow methodical play is not only boring but unsuccessful as well.

The pressure in an FA Cup tie would never be the same in an international game though.

I agree but I definitely think a more positive attitude is the way to go. We were negative in 2010 and 2006 and got what we deserved. I'm not saying go gung ho ala Keegan, just more of what we do week in week out.

England dont play to the strengths of their players its what the Germans and Spaniards have done in recent times with a philosophy throughout the age groups and players buying into it as long as Gerrard Terry and co get their own way England will never be successful as some need put out to pasture and starting fresh

New coaches and approaches are needed from grassroots up, players lack creativity and freedom of expression too many think in straight lines and that its all about counter attacking and none know how to control and dictate a games tempo

yes marty