OK, What should be promotion requirements? (extending to the Rabo?)

The one good thing about the London Welsh decision is that it has exposed the hypocrisy of ground standards and that cosy cartels are not beyond reproach. To Welsh's credit, the very threat of testing the case in court made the RFU/PRL collapse like a failed soufflé.

But is it good for rugby? Cornish are spending time and money to develop a worthwhile and tenable structure but this decision kind of undercuts their whole project.

And lest we forget, the principle of league manipulation extends beyond the auspices of the RFU ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/6630905.stm ).

Also what is to prevent a challenge to the Rabo's cosy cartel using the self-same EU law that fled away from http://uploadscdn.sportnetwork.net/upload/245/LW_appeal_judgment.pdf (section 6). Surely it certainly would not be legitimate in normal commerce and trade.

Probably helps to have a top barrister as your chairman

Portnoy wrote:

Also what is to prevent a challenge to the Rabo's cosy cartel

The fact that there are no other professional teams in Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Italy. Who do you propose would challenge this 'cartel' (ridiculous term to use in this case) to play in the Rabo...?

Just to add to that - far from being a cartel the Rabo has demonstrated that it is quite open to new teams joining hence the fact that the Celtic Unions were all in favour of the Italian teams coming in.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

Also what is to prevent a challenge to the Rabo's cosy cartel

The fact that there are no other professional teams in Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Italy. Who do you propose would challenge this 'cartel' (ridiculous term to use in this case) to play in the Rabo...?

Aside form the err ....professional ones? Thats the problem with facts.
And you understand Portnoys point that that their would/could be more if the WRU didnt actively hold back some clubs over others? Yes ?
No didnt think so. When even a WUM article goes over peoples heads you know youre onto a loser.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Just to add to that - far from being a cartel the Rabo has demonstrated that it is quite open to new teams joining hence the fact that the Celtic Unions were all in favour of the Italian teams coming in.

They set strict eligability criteria though, and didnt make require them to win their place on merit. Or financial viability it appears.

If you said something coherent I might have an idea of what you're talking about Peter.....

What do you mean thats the problem with facts?

How does Beddau & Bonymaen not being promoted to the Welsh premiership (in 2007 I might add) make the Rabo a 'cartel' and how does it affect what teams could become part of the Rabo given that these teams are semi professional and feed the regions which are in the Rabo?

Finally - what do you mean a 'wum article', are you suggesting portnoy is a wummer - if so I'd be inclined to agree with you a lot of the time.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Just to add to that - far from being a cartel the Rabo has demonstrated that it is quite open to new teams joining hence the fact that the Celtic Unions were all in favour of the Italian teams coming in.

They set strict eligability criteria though, and didnt make require them to win their place on merit. Or financial viability it appears.

Really and what was the strict eligibility criteria exactly, and dont you think you're contradicting yourself when you say there is strict eligibility on the one hand yet they didnt have to win their place on merit or be financially viable on the other?

In my own defence I'll copy over this conversation with Dreamer on another article:

Portnoy wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

As I have pointed out in another article Dreamer, is the rabo in line with EU competition law? https://www.606v2.com/t31857-ok-what-should-be-promotion-requirements-extending-to-the-rabo

As the Rabo doesn't have relegation or promotion issues I don't think that they do? (don't really have a clue mind you )

What happens if a sugar-daddy decided to take over a non-Rabo club within the EU (and especially the Rabo zone) and claimed an entry?

Let's take an extreme hypothetical example: Mr Abramovic decided to take over Cork Constitution playing at Cork City ground. Firstly he'd have to challenge the IRFU's right to over-ride EU's rights to allow competition in their monopoly area. And then challenge the Rabo on the same grounds.

If BT couldn't maintain their monopoly of land-line infrastructure, phone numbers etc., the IRFU and the Rabo should be a doddle.

The sudden silence from 'Peter' in this thread is pretty deafening. Portnoy you have some imagination, but by your own admittance you have had to come up with an "extreme hypothetical example" to argue that the Rabo is in some way a 'cartel' - hence why I said it isn't and is a pretty ridiculous word to use in this case.

Why do you always go on about extending promotion to the Pro12? Because the Premiership has it? It makes no more sense than suggesting boats should have wings just because planes do!

Your Cork Constitution example makes as much sense as suggesting Roman Abramovich's Chelsea will sue FIFA for not letting them into the World Cup in 2014. Cork Con already have access to the top tier of Irish Club Rugby. The AIL Division 1A.

Notch wrote:
Your Cork Constitution example makes as much sense as suggesting Roman Abramovich's Chelsea will sue FIFA for not letting them into the World Cup in 2014.

Perfect

AD,

Portnoy you have some imagination, but by your own admittance you have had to come up with an "extreme hypothetical example" to argue that the Rabo is in some way a 'cartel' - hence why I said it isn't and is a pretty ridiculous word to use in this case.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cartel

Notch,

Why do you always go on about extending promotion to the Pro12?

I'm not necessarily promotion or anything. Just suggesting that the Rabo is technically illegal as institutionally applies artificial barriers to entry

Portnoy by this logic any competition anywhere in the world is illegal as there are barriers to entry.

As an member of the EU I think its disgraceful that Munster are not allowed to compete in the Top 14 and that Bucharest Oaks cannot play in the Premiership.

Well where do i start:

Ok i think the whole thing is a feicin mess.

1) The championship play off is farcical...i believe it has been chucked already so in the future it wont matter. Bristol should be up...simple as.

2) The ground issue is a problem. Whilst us Falcons dont own our ground...it is obvious that its still "our ground" so to speak.
I think we need to bring in the situation now that clubs need their own settled ground...or if that they are ground sharing it needs to be on a long term basis...not moving every couple of seasons when a new board come in. I havent heard the full case for LW but is it right they are playing at different home grounds next season or is it just the Kassam in Oxford?

It will be irrelevant soon anyway, as i do think the RFU will want to ringfence the league keeping the main traditional clubs in it, and using the remained as feeder clubs...whether anyone likes it or not.

Portnoy wrote:I'm not necessarily promotion or anything. Just suggesting that the Rabo is technically illegal as institutionally applies artificial barriers to entry

Think you might want to try and run that one past a lawyer before you write any more green-ink letters

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well where do i start:

Ok i think the whole thing is a feicin mess.

1) The championship play off is farcical...i believe it has been chucked already so in the future it wont matter. Bristol should be up...simple as.

2) The ground issue is a problem. Whilst us Falcons dont own our ground...it is obvious that its still "our ground" so to speak.
I think we need to bring in the situation now that clubs need their own settled ground...or if that they are ground sharing it needs to be on a long term basis...not moving every couple of seasons when a new board come in. I havent heard the full case for LW but is it right they are playing at different home grounds next season or is it just the Kassam in Oxford?

It will be irrelevant soon anyway, as i do think the RFU will want to ringfence the league keeping the main traditional clubs in it, and using the remained as feeder clubs...whether anyone likes it or not.

I think the Championship are copying the Premiership's play-off model for next season. Play-offs might not be strictly necessary for the Championship, but it will generate finances and exposure and offer a sense of occasion for the league.

Portnoy wrote:The one good thing about the London Welsh decision is that it has exposed the hypocrisy of ground standards and that cosy cartels are not beyond reproach. To Welsh's credit, the very threat of testing the case in court made the RFU/PRL collapse like a failed soufflé.

But is it good for rugby? Cornish are spending time and money to develop a worthwhile and tenable structure but this decision kind of undercuts their whole project.

And lest we forget, the principle of league manipulation extends beyond the auspices of the RFU ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/6630905.stm ).

Also what is to prevent a challenge to the Rabo's cosy cartel using the self-same EU law that fled away from http://uploadscdn.sportnetwork.net/upload/245/LW_appeal_judgment.pdf (section 6). Surely it certainly would not be legitimate in normal commerce and trade.

The problem the Premiership had was that they had 1 rule for aspiring Championship clubs and 1 rule for existing Premiership clubs (the three club exemption). That's what contravened European law.

The Rabo don't have a second division that they offer promotion/relegation from/to, nor do they invite the four domestic league champions from participating countries to have a play-off with the winner getting promoted. If they did and then tried to apply strict qualification criteria, they would have to ensure that all participating clubs qualified under the same criteria.

red_stag wrote:Portnoy by this logic any competition anywhere in the world is illegal as there are barriers to entry.

As an member of the EU I think its disgraceful that Munster are not allowed to compete in the Top 14 and that Bucharest Oaks cannot play in the Premiership.

That scenario may be tested - e.g. should an Old Firm Glasgow lay claim for a place in the English football League.

I wouldn't if I were you be to incandescent with rage about Munster being in the Irish league whilst the principle remains uncontested. That way they don't have to consider relegation.

Remember the Bosman ruling? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosman_ruling

Anyway back to the main point.

As the RFU clearly got cold feet when threatened with court action, does this U-turn on promotions open the doors to all-comers?

It seems to me that it does. Laying down rules about ground H&S standards, ground capacities are to me eminently sensible - but are clearly contestable.

Maybe a pre-season contract signed by each club agreeing to be bound by the rules pertaining to promotion may be a way around the problem. I bet there wasn't before the LW case, but if an enforceable contract can be legally drawn up, I doubt if there will be one by at least 2013-4.

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:Portnoy by this logic any competition anywhere in the world is illegal as there are barriers to entry.

As an member of the EU I think its disgraceful that Munster are not allowed to compete in the Top 14 and that Bucharest Oaks cannot play in the Premiership.

That scenario may be tested - e.g. should an Old Firm Glasgow lay claim for a place in the English football League.

I wouldn't if I were you be to incandescent with rage about Munster being in the Irish league whilst the principle remains uncontested. That way they don't have to consider relegation.

Remember the Bosman ruling? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosman_ruling

I think Celtic and Rangers have been told they are more than welcome to join the English football league, they're just not going to be placed straight into the Premier League. If they want to take their place in the Enligsh football league and work they're way up then they can.

Has it Robbo? Who extended that 'welcome'?

It has been suggested a few times, but I've never heard of a formal response. There is a back-door method - buy out an existing English club and effectively re-brand it.

Portnoy wrote:But is it good for rugby? Cornish are spending time and money to develop a worthwhile and tenable structure but this decision kind of undercuts their whole project.

In the short term, perhaps so, as some second class tycoon can come in, throw money at players to come and play in the Championship, play in a stadium that is not theirs, and all of this funded by one man's pool of money. But it's short lived. Look to football, and the way that it pans out for them. Crawley Town are the most obvious comparison; taken from non-league football to League One due to loanees and League One standard players coming to play in the conference to earn more than they would at a League One team. Players will go, not because they're inherently evil, but because this is capitalism, and in a short, potentially very short if interrupted through injury/loss of form, career, they need to make as much as they can. But it's not a system that will last. Tycoon will leave/run out of money, and the club will have been r***.

For the Pirates, the right thing is to always look at the medium term, and the stadium will enhance their chances, because they're not moving/alienating their fanbase, and aren't looking for the quick payout/quick return that perhaps others are.


IMO, Bristol should have gone up because they won the league. To have a play off system for only one team getting promoted seems ridiculous, though I can understand how it could be a monopoly of the team relegated immediately getting promoted (in reality, though, this doesn't happen a surprising amount of times). However, if London Welsh hadn't gone up when they had a situation no different to several Premiership teams in terms of groundshare is similarly ridiculous.

Portnoy wrote:Has it Robbo? Who extended that 'welcome'?

It has been suggested a few times, but I've never heard of a formal response. There is a back-door method - buy out an existing English club and effectively re-brand it.

I'm sure if they followed the correct procedures they would be welcomed into North Northumberland division 2, and then 14 promotions later they'd be in the Premier League. They're just not going to be invited straight into the Premier League, which is all they'd accept.

I didn't know Rangers or Celtic could join the English league. Could an Irish team? Or would it have to be a team from the UK?

biltongbek wrote:Artful Dodger - Kiwreddevil asked you and PSW to end your personal digs at each other, it takes two to tango and currently you are doing a solo.

Now that sounde VERY rude indeed!
Back on topic, there must be a balance struck between playing ability and how a team acquired that ability - was it by spending recklessly on players that their income can't really afford? That is the big question being aimed the way of Rangers just now . They overspent, won buckets of trophies but only now are we finding out that their finances are shot to pieces

Crikey, what a quagmire!
The RFU and PRL had a business plan which seemed to work well for a number of years. I certainly hope that whatever new or modified plan they come up with remains focused on growth of Rugby, and not turning back the clock to days when any old club can win a competition and be promoted. Rugby is sport. It is also a business. It must be managed that way.

There is nothing hypocritical about having higher business standards for clubs moving up than for existing ones. Just the opposite, it is a prudent business plan for growth. To me there is nothing wrong with grandfathering the existing clubs because over the course of time they will have to conform or eventually be left behind and/or relegated. Evolution instead of revolution.

Now there will be pressure on the RFU or PRL to have a plan to immediately push all existing Premiership clubs to higher standards which will cause more disruption in the sport.

On the other hand, I can't see the validity of comparing the English Premiership and Celtic Leagues as applies to the current situation. They are different business entities, different structures, and have different reasons for being. Not better or worse, just different. I don't see how the Celtic League is connected in any way to what is (hopefully) an uniquely Premiership issue. And fortunately for them, as well.
Rugby has enough problems.

Portnoy wrote:But is it good for rugby? Cornish are spending time and money to develop a worthwhile and tenable structure but this decision kind of undercuts their whole project.

What makes you think Welsh haven't been making an effort to improve for many years they have always been trying to make things better, llinking up with the Ospreys, developing young players etc.

The only difference between Welsh and Cornish is Welsh were lucky enough to have a suitable ground locally where as Cornish havent due to their local council not being prepared to invest in one. That is the fault of neither rugby club.

Portnoy - Clubs can request to play within the English FA system or not - Wrexham, Newport, Cardiff and Swansea (and Merthyr?) all requested to leave the Welsh FA league system and enter the English - they have then worked their way up the leagues via promotion until they are where you see them today - Rangers and Celtic could request the same.

Back to topic - I don't see how this decision effects Cornish Pirates as they obviously didn't plan to go up this season, but next season or the season after. If LW do as badly as everyone forecasts next season then they will be back down in the Championship and Cornish can (if they wish/are in the position to) get promoted - no real change from what would have happened if LW had stayed in the Championship.

PS Also Portnoy Munster are not in the Irish league, they are a province in the Rabo representing all the Irish clubs in their province. (those same Irish clubs have access to the Top tier of Irish club rugby)