Provisional Ball

Hi, I was in a medal on Saturday, was going well but had hit a terrible tee shot on 16th. It had ht a tree and bounced off into some deep rough. the wrong side of a lake surrounded by trees - ie my next shot would have been preety much impossible - and with no obvious chip out.
My thoughts were to hit a provisional - I got to thinking about the rules on this.
If i hit a good provisional , could I then just call the original ball lost - and then just say carry on ill play my provisional -ie not even looking for it (in case i found it !) ?
If the provisional was also rubbish, I could really try to find the original, and in worst case scenario call it unplayable and return to the tee to play 3 ..

I know it would be against the spirit, but is it against the rules ?

I think you can. Not the definitive answer you were looking for I know! One point though is that you cannot declare a ball lost by just saying it is lost. It is only lost when you hit the next ball, be it a provisional or by replaying the shot by stroke and distance.

Unless you declare the provisional as a provisional ball prior to hitting it, it becomes the ball in play, therefore if you don't want to find your original ball, you can play a second (with a penalty shot) and it becomes the ball in play, even if you subsequently find the original (although you shouldn't really be looking for it because by not declaring a provisional, you are conceding the original as lost)

I was thinking I could declare a provisional, and if it was good, could continue with that (and make sure I didnt find the original) ..
If it was bad, I could find the original , whcih then makes the provisional redundant. I could then return to tee to hit again ..
But Im just not sure about the 'calling it lost' without looking for it -AFTER hiting a good provisional.
Otherwise, do you have to look for 5 mins before a ball can be 'abandoned' as lost ?

Why declare a provisional if the first is that bad?

George?

Im just thinking that I can have a 'free' provisional shot -
If thats good, use it, else make sure i find the original , and then I can go again if need be.

Similar thing happened to me last year where I ended up making a 4 on par 3.First tee shot down the left towards the woods,provisional onto the green found the first unplayable ,walked back and hit third tee shot,holed putt for a 4.certainly helped having the 3 goes at it.Slow though

There is no rule that states you must look for your original ball, having hit a provisional, once you reach your provisional, you can declare your first ball lost, and continue, with your provisional ball now being the ball in play.

thanks .. I shall serioiusly consider doign that next time !

btw - ended up taking 7 (on par 4) and lost comp by 1 shot

There was an example of this a few years ago in a play-off between Mickelson and Lickliter in San Diego on the PGA Tour.

Lickliter and Mickelson both hit horrible tee-shots, but Phil's second tee ball was striped. He waved away willing helpers shouting words to the effect of, "It's lost, don't look for it."
I believe he won the hole, and the tournament, with a six to Lickliter's seven. Something like that, but the essence of the story is that there are tournament precedents for this.

I got a very early lesson on how to take advantage of the provisional ball rules.

I played with Colin Dalgleigh in the Brittish Unis qualifying rounds in 1982 are Moortown, Leeds. Colin was a Scottish International and later went onto to Captain the Walker Cup. 17th hole was a short par 4 with about 10 yards of shrubs and flowers behind the green then out of bounds.

Colin hit his wedge over the flag, but long and several yards into the shrubs and flowers and with no option to go backwards if it was found. The shrubs and flowers were all small so about 95% chance of finding the ball. He declared a provisional and hit it stiff. Before the divot was replaced he declared the first ball lost then tapped in for his 5. After he tapped in he went and found his Titleist balata in about 20 seconds (I told you he was Scottish).

Not in the spirit of the rules, but too often the exact wording of the rules as opposed to the spirit of the rules costs shots so to me it is morally okay to take advantage if the opportunity arises, which is very rarely.

You CANNOT declare a ball lost. You can declare it unplayable, and return to the tee, or you can play your provisional again and thereby (so long as the provisional goes past where the original ball is thought to be) make it the ball in play, but you can't declare a ball lost.

It never ceases to amaze me how often people get this confused. It happened the other night in a match, my opponent hit a ball into the trees where he knew if he found it he'd have no shot, so he said he'd declare it lost. As soon as he hit another ball without declaring it a provisional, that became the ball in play, irrespective of the location or playability of the first. I explained he can't declare it lost, but he still sheepishly asked if I minded if he went and collected the original ball 'even though I've declared it lost'. Not only do people get this wrong, they clearly think there's some code of behaviour attached to it!

Edit: Just read Scottie's post and again, he didn't declare it lost (or rather his saying anything on those lines had no effect whatsoever), but it ceased to be the ball in play when he tapped the provisional in.

You can’t declare a ball lost, as smithers said. If you choose not to look for it and hit the provisional then the provisional becomes the ball in play. There is however nothing to stop your playing partners going for a quick look for your original ball even if you don’t.

The key point is that the rules do not allow for declaring a ball lost so saying the ball is lost means nothing. It is your actions that are important as this will decide the ball that ends up in play.


Scottie, that is a prime example of an occasion where maybe you should look for another players ball when they don’t.

He would have to hit out of turn to bring the provisional into play while you were looking for the first ball.

I see, so its more a case of actions rather than words..
So I could have hit my provisional , and if I liked it, I could have just continued past where my first ball was and just played on with my provisional - which does the job of declaring it lost.
And If no-one else found it prior to me getting to the ball then no worries !

kwinigolfer wrote:There was an example of this a few years ago in a play-off between Mickelson and Lickliter in San Diego on the PGA Tour.

Lickliter and Mickelson both hit horrible tee-shots, but Phil's second tee ball was striped. He waved away willing helpers shouting words to the effect of, "It's lost, don't look for it."
I believe he won the hole, and the tournament, with a six to Lickliter's seven. Something like that, but the essence of the story is that there are tournament precedents for this.

Not quite the story: Big Phil indeed told them not to look for the ball, so when he striped his next, informed the gallery not to find it. Just as he was walking down to his provisional, a spectator called to him that his ball was found. Phil declared it unplayable & had to return to the tee. To play another ball. He was not amused.

SetupDeterminesTheMotion wrote:Not quite the story: Big Phil indeed told them not to look for the ball, so when he striped his next, informed the gallery not to find it. Just as he was walking down to his provisional, a spectator called to him that his ball was found. Phil declared it unplayable & had to return to the tee. To play another ball. He was not amused.

Bit odd. Why didn't he just continue to play his provisional ball thereby making it the ball in play?

Because as soon as the original ball is found, the provisional is no longer in play and the original ball is the ball in play. If in those circumstances he had hit the provisional, he would have been guilty of playing a wrong ball.

navyblueshorts wrote:

SetupDeterminesTheMotion wrote:Not quite the story: Big Phil indeed told them not to look for the ball, so when he striped his next, informed the gallery not to find it. Just as he was walking down to his provisional, a spectator called to him that his ball was found. Phil declared it unplayable & had to return to the tee. To play another ball. He was not amused.

Bit odd. Why didn't he just continue to play his provisional ball thereby making it the ball in play?

Because it was a provisional. When he finds his first ball, unplayable or not, the provisional ball does not exist. Its a bit odd in that it wastes time having to go back and play another ball stroke and distance but I suppose it acts as a deterent to those who might too often take advantage of the whole unplayable ball rule. Spirit of the game and all that.

WHy did he have to go back to the tee? He could have taken the ball back as far as he liked in line with the green on penalty of one stroke.

Setup,
I just re-read an article about it and that matches yr recollection.

I think the point that nbs makes occurred because he wasn't sure of Lickliter's position. Which turned out to be just as bad!


super_, That would only have taken him out of bounds . . . . . . .

kwinigolfer wrote:Setup,
I just re-read an article about it and that matches yr recollection.

I think the point that nbs makes occurred because he wasn't sure of Lickliter's position. Which turned out to be just as bad!


super_, That would only have taken him out of bounds . . . . . . .

of course, sorry, I was being a bit "irish" there.

golfermartin wrote:Because as soon as the original ball is found, the provisional is no longer in play and the original ball is the ball in play. If in those circumstances he had hit the provisional, he would have been guilty of playing a wrong ball.

Ahh...

Everyone is pretty much right about this. If you declare a ball as a provisional, then you are at the mercy of someone finding your first ball. Perhaps in stroke play, it's not so likely, but in matchplay it could be in your opponent's interest to find the first one.

On the other hand if you don't say anything, and hit another ball, then that becomes the ball in play right away. If someone finds the first ball it doesn't matter.

Scottie's story about Colin Dalgleish is interesting. If Dalgleish declared his second ball as a provisional, then (unless Scottie had holed his second shot) Dalgleish played out of turn when he tapped in. If there had been any officials around, then I'm pretty sure that someone would have stopped him playing any other shot while they figured out whether the first ball was lost, and if not, whether it was playable. If Dalgleish asked Scottie if it was ok to tap his putt in, they could both have been dqed under 10.2c, because Dalgleish was trying to gain an advantage, and Scottie let him.

Incidentally, I have been the beneficiary of the crowd finding my opponent's ball. It was in the Amateur Championship, and at a critical moment in the match, both of us hit really poor second shots. Mine ended up buried in the face of a bunker, my opponent carved one into the whin bushes. His provisional nearly went in though, and I was facing the prospect of getting it up and down from the bunker to get the win I needed to keep the game alive. Thankfully someone found his first ball after 4¾ minutes (it wasn't my Dad!) and he decided to take a penalty drop out of the bush. It all want wrong for him though, he dropped it in another unplayable position. He ended up with a seven, and lost the hole to my six. I won the 18th and 19th to progress to the next round (when a US Walker Cupper took care of me).

George1507 wrote: but in matchplay it could be in your opponent's interest to find the first one.

I read a book by Tom Watson years ago about the Rules of Golf and he said exactly the same thing. Get your running spikes on and see if you could find the ball quickly.

So in theory, if you hit a ball down the middle of the fairway, then just tee-up another ball and hit it without declaring it as a provisional, the second ball is the ball in play even if every man and his dog can see the first one?

Yes that is correct, but presumably you would only do that if the dog had indeed seen it, picked it up and then dropped it near to out of bounds...

lorus59 wrote:So in theory, if you hit a ball down the middle of the fairway, then just tee-up another ball and hit it without declaring it as a provisional, the second ball is the ball in play even if every man and his dog can see the first one?

Yes, that's correct. Not just in theory, that's the case in actuality.

I had to intervene in a dispute a few years ago where a guy smacked an old ball he'd found into a lake after he and his opponent had driven off. His opponent was claiming that he hadn't said anything, so that old ball was the ball in play.

George1507 wrote:

lorus59 wrote:So in theory, if you hit a ball down the middle of the fairway, then just tee-up another ball and hit it without declaring it as a provisional, the second ball is the ball in play even if every man and his dog can see the first one?

Yes, that's correct. Not just in theory, that's the case in actuality.

I had to intervene in a dispute a few years ago where a guy smacked an old ball he'd found into a lake after he and his opponent had driven off. His opponent was claiming that he hadn't said anything, so that old ball was the ball in play.

Interesting one that, I suppose you could claim he played a wrong ball from the wrong place, but I would say he was practising on the course (incurring 2 shot penalty). The ball could not be a provisional, unless he smacked it into the lake from the tee, because you can only play a provisional before you walk forward to look for the original ball.

It was matchplay, so the penalty for practising while playing a hole would have been loss of hole. Fortunately (for everyone including me) the guy lost the hole anyway, he lost the match too, and I didn't get involved until the game was over. It all got quite heated.

what exactly is the rulling on "practising on the course".
i took a free spot at the weekend, didnt play with my regular guys, and one of the chaps took a practise putt or two after completitng each hole. is this ok?
does it matter if its strokes/stabelford?

From the RoG

7-2. Practice During Round
A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.

Between the play of two holes a player must not make a practice stroke,
except that he may practise putting or chipping on or near:
a. the putting green of the hole last played,
b. any practice putting green, or
c. the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round,
provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly
delay play (Rule 6-7).

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 7-2:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.
In the event of a breach between the play of two holes, the penalty
applies to the next hole.

has anyone ever had the "does it actually matter if you say provisional" argument?

I haven't, I'm not that fussed, I assume that what they are playing is a provisional, if they look for the first ball and find it then fine, if they just walk straight to the "second ball" I've no issue. To me, playing a second ball is an inferred provisional.

Far too much jobsworths in golf.

Super

What about the examples above where an opponent wants to look for a ball and the play does not? You need to know if it is a provisional.

Although in general I agree - and like with a lost ball - i am happy for actions to determine the situation. I guess any obvious manipulation of the rules by not declaring a provisional would be obvious and could be sorted out if they arise.

George1507 wrote:From the RoG

7-2. Practice During Round
A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.

Between the play of two holes a player must not make a practice stroke,
except that he may practise putting or chipping on or near:
a. the putting green of the hole last played,
b. any practice putting green, or
c. the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round,
provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly
delay play (Rule 6-7).

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 7-2:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.
In the event of a breach between the play of two holes, the penalty
applies to the next hole.

Thanks George. i always find it interesting though that you only see it in pro evens that are matchplay and not strokeplay. is there anything behind this?

I normally just ask if it's a provisional before they hit it. Saves any argument later. I wouldn't try to gain advantage if they didn't declare it, though.

hend085 wrote:

George1507 wrote:From the RoG

7-2. Practice During Round
A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.

Between the play of two holes a player must not make a practice stroke,
except that he may practise putting or chipping on or near:
a. the putting green of the hole last played,
b. any practice putting green, or
c. the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round,
provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly
delay play (Rule 6-7).

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 7-2:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.
In the event of a breach between the play of two holes, the penalty
applies to the next hole.

Thanks George. i always find it interesting though that you only see it in pro evens that are matchplay and not strokeplay. is there anything behind this?

I'm afraid I don't know. The PGA and the European Tour have some rules that apply in their events, but I don't know if there is one that stops players practising their putts after they've holed out. On the basis that they play at snails' pace anyway, it's quite possible there is, otherwise pro events would need months rather than a week to complete.

And yes, the 'did or didn't you declare it as a provisional ball' comes up a lot. I seem to remember an incident at the Dunhill Links thing a few years ago, with a Korean or Taiwanese bloke being required to play his provisional even though his first ball was in the middle of the 17th fairway on the Old Course. He'd thought it was too far right, hit a provisional, first ball was ok. The fact that he couldn't speak English was immaterial apparently....

There's an interesting wrinkle in the Provisional Ball rule...

If you walk past your provisional ball, closer to the hole to look for your original ball, then technically you've abandoned your provisional and it's no longer in play, and if you don't find your original you have no ball in play and have to go back to where you hit from and hit another. You're supposed to play your provisional ball until it's at or past the point where you believe your original lies, before going to look for your original. This rule is rarely enforced with the people I play with, particularly if they are reasonably equidistant.

I didn't realise that Bob. I always play the provisional up until where I think the first one is and I encourage others to do the same as I think that would speed up play anyway.

Also...if you then play your provisional ball after it has come to rest at a point nearer to the hole than you believe your original lies, then the provisional ball is the only ball in play and if you find your original, you can't play it.

I'm not rules nerd, I just got caught out by this one once.

I think you're over-analysing there Bob;

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).
If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

The rules are generally very equitable, and if what you're suggesting was true then no-one would ever be able to hit a provisional since the whole point is you don't know where the ball is, so can't know if your provisional is past it or not.

That's pretty much what I said is it not SJ? If you play on past your original ball you're boned - the original is deemed lost whether you go back and find it or not?

Bob_the_Job wrote:That's pretty much what I said is it not SJ? If you play on past your original ball you're boned - the original is deemed lost whether you go back and find it or not?

If you play another shot, yes. Your first post read as though simply walking past your provisional's resting place rendered it out of play. That's absolutely not the case.

Bob_the_Job wrote:There's an interesting wrinkle in the Provisional Ball rule...

If you walk past your provisional ball, closer to the hole to look for your original ball, then technically you've abandoned your provisional and it's no longer in play, and if you don't find your original you have no ball in play and have to go back to where you hit from and hit another. You're supposed to play your provisional ball until it's at or past the point where you believe your original lies, before going to look for your original. This rule is rarely enforced with the people I play with, particularly if they are reasonably equidistant.

Hmmm, I'm not sure that anyone could construe that from the rules.

The rule (27.1) says ***The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the
original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from
the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the
hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes
the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1)***

If you've hit a provisional, and you search for a few minutes round about where the original ball is likely to be, I don't think you could be penalised. You can't be penalised for walking across an imaginary line that goes across the course from your provisional. Golf is a game played in EQUITY - you shouldn't be penalised for doing what would be regarded as the sensible thing if the rules don't precisely cover the situation you are in. Imagine a situation where your provisional is just short of where you think the original ball might be. You see a ball in the rough a few yards ahead, walk over to identify it, and it turns out not to be yours. You can't then be penalised by someone deeming that you have abandoned your provisional.

On holes where there's a road, or track, or cart path, there can be a lot of doubt about where the ball is LIKELY to be. If the ball hits a cart path, it sometimes turns up a lot further down the hole than expected. If there's a possibility that that could happen, it's best to keep going with the provisional ball (ie keep deeming it as the provisional) until you reluctantly have to accept it's gone.

That's what I was trying to say, thanks George.

From the R&A site, a decision relating to rule 27-2:

"The sole purpose of Rule 27-2 is to enable the player to save time. The only way he can effectively do so is to play the provisional ball before going forward for the purpose of searching for the original ball. However, this provision should not be so narrowly interpreted to preclude a player from playing a provisional ball even though he has proceeded from where he last played in the direction of the original ball, e.g. in retrieving a ball or a different club to play the provisional ball. The Committee must consider all of the relevant facts in determining if the player did in fact go forward to search for the original ball."

To my mind you can progress forward to get a club or another ball, but it doesn't make it clear you can go 100 yards forward to look for your original and then trot back to play your provisional. In fact it suggests you can't..which was my point.

All a bit ambiguous in my book

Bob_the_Job wrote:From the R&A site, a decision relating to rule 27-2:

"The sole purpose of Rule 27-2 is to enable the player to save time. The only way he can effectively do so is to play the provisional ball before going forward for the purpose of searching for the original ball. However, this provision should not be so narrowly interpreted to preclude a player from playing a provisional ball even though he has proceeded from where he last played in the direction of the original ball, e.g. in retrieving a ball or a different club to play the provisional ball. The Committee must consider all of the relevant facts in determining if the player did in fact go forward to search for the original ball."

To my mind you can progress forward to get a club or another ball, but it doesn't make it clear you can go 100 yards forward to look for your original and then trot back to play your provisional. In fact it suggests you can't..which was my point.

All a bit ambiguous in my book

What this decision is about is when you can hit a provisional. The idea of provisionals is to save time. If you decide to walk ahead, look unsuccessfully for the ball, then walk back and play another ball, it's not a provisional you are playing. However if you have to walk to somewhere near where the ball may be to get another ball or club, then that's not the same and you can still declare it as a provisional. Having a look for your original ball when you get near where it might be, after hitting a provisional, is ok.

I seem to remember that Sandy Lyle got disqualified from a tournament for practising his putting on the 18th green in the evening, what rule would be used for that.??