Why League Can and Rugby Can't - List Modified After Criticise!

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 12:53 pm

So flip side of my consideration of Friday about IRB Junior player of the year is why it is so many star players develop in rugby league and switch to union?

I list some great athlete who make a mark in rugby:

Daily Messenger(*) - add on thanks to chewed_mintie.
Jason Robinson
Brad Thorn
Chris Ashton
Lote Tuquiri
Wendyl Sailor
Mat Rogers
Andrew Walker
Cooper Vuna
Tasesa Lavea
Shontayne Hape
Henry Paul
Va'iga Tuigamala
John Schuster
Andy Farrel
Sonny Bill Williams
Lesley Vainikolo

Quite Some list!!!! and I am so sure other experts can think of the one I miss from that one too! I am sure Emack can list some converting players from 1963 that I miss too!

So what is it that mean Rugby League with so few follower and so little international attract and develop so many potent rugby players who out shining so many starts developed by grass-root rugby and academy?

by chewed_mintie Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:02 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:So flip side of my consideration of Friday about IRB Junior player of the year is why it is so many star players develop in rugby league and switch to union?

I list some great athlete who make a mark in rugby:

Gareth Thomas - ahem
Jonathan Davies - wind up
Jason Robinson - correct
Tana Umaga - correct
Brad Thorn - correct
Iestyn Harris - correct
Chris Ashton - correct
Lote Tuquiri - correct
Wendyl Sailor - correct
Mat Rogers - correct
Andrew Walker - originally from Union to League and back
Cooper Vuna - correct
Tasesa Lavea - played Union at school and was signed by Melbourne Storm to play league
Shontayne Hape - correct
Scott Quinnell - wind up
Henry Paul - correct
Va'iga Tuigamala - wind up
John Schuster - wind up
Andy Farrel - correct
Sonny Bill Williams - correct
Frano Botica - wind up
Craig Innes - big wind up
George Nepia - massive, insulting windup!
John Timu - wind up
Lesley Vainikolo - correct

Quite Some list!!!! and I am so sure other experts can think of the one I miss from that one too!

So what is it that mean Rugby League with so few follower and so little international attract and develop so many potent rugby players who out shining so many starts developed by grass-root rugby and academy?

I know this is a wind up but must point out some of the mistakes for others....

I'm surprised you haven't added Dally Messenger to this, he of course, being the great Australian Union player who previously played league before there was such a game in Australia and then converted back once he'd made a name for himself in Union!

I must say AWOP, for someone with such an abundant knowledge of the sport, you are seriously letting yourself down here mate

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:04 pm

Sigh. Not a wind up. A question. And I say I might miss some great players. I never hear about this Daily Messenger, but thanks for adding.

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:04 pm

I'm also disappointed that you're being quite lazy and leaving your 'broken' English slip quite a lot.

by **Biltong** Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:07 pm

There is something amiss on that list... South Africans...Ah, now I remember, we don't play touch rugby. Laugh

We like it rough. Whistle

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:11 pm

biltongbek wrote:There is something amiss on that list... South Africans...Ah, now I remember, we don't play touch rugby.

We like it rough.

Well Biltongbek next for my series about develop the player is coming the article on "why some countries can develop and not the other" and will be some section of a lot south african players move to the other country, so wait for that one to publishing!

by sugarNspikes Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:13 pm

How long until the crook comes out for ghost

this time?

by Guest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:15 pm

sugarNspikes wrote:How long until the crook comes out for this time?

I think he's a plant by the mods Wink

by **Biltong** Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:15 pm

Guys please read regarding accusations of banned members

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:21 pm

And Adam Orignator miss out one important point: Is boring and ruin the thread when always someone jump on every new post and accuse about banned member coming back! I think always from now we know the opinion of Sugar and and his friend that I am a "spook" and no need to keep remind us of your opnion. Myself I thinking this is racist to call someone like that and is some insult to find every post get followed by some "spook" icon.

by sugarNspikes Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:22 pm

Suppose you see a bird walking around in a farm yard. This bird has no label that says 'duck'. But the bird certainly looks like a duck. Also, he goes to the pond and you notice that he swims like a duck. Then he opens his beak and quacks like a duck. Well, by this time you have probably reached the conclusion that the bird is a duck, whether he's wearing a label or not.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:24 pm

You are entitled to your view but I prefer you respond to the topic and not make irrelevancing deliberate to get the thread bin!

by **Biltong** Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:26 pm

That's enough, suagarNspikes you made this point before and hopefully have read Adam's thread, AWOP, no necessity to become insulting, you are just adding to the problem.

Get on topic boys or thsi thread goes to the bin.

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:48 pm

Please bin the thread - these deliberate wum articles get tiresome

by **LondonTiger** Mon 02 Jul 2012, 3:22 pm

If it is not a wind up, why list so many players who played Rugby union before switching to rugby League before switching back again.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 3:40 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Please bin the thread - these deliberate wum articles get tiresome

The problem is so many unconstructive posters destroy every thread with their own "moderation" base on opinion and prejudice and racism!

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 02 Jul 2012, 3:45 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:Please bin the thread - these deliberate wum articles get tiresome

The problem is so many unconstructive posters destroy every thread with their own "moderation" base on opinion and prejudice and racism!

To be fair, the inclussion of numerous players (who started out, and made a name for themselves, in Union before jumping to the professional Legaue, and then returned when Union was professional) in your list does make this thread come accross as a WUM, whether it is meant that way or not.

Sadly, there are a fair number of threads on here that, whether they are or not, appear to be blatent WUMs, and people tend not to show threads like that any respect, as they believe the thread was meant to offend (again whether it was meant to or not).

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 3:47 pm

So try to constructive criticise and debating and not just assume everyone is WUM.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 02 Jul 2012, 3:49 pm

There is not much need for debate.

In your original post about half the players named went from RL to RU, and half (initalliy) went the other way.

So both forms of the game are equally good at identifying and developing players.

by fa0019 Mon 02 Jul 2012, 3:51 pm

Why do so many players switch to union from league??? perhaps its because its a better game. Smile

However League is certainly a bigger game in AUS than union so its no wonder they generate more players.

However... please. Iestyn Harris... the guy was a complete joke. Couldn't kick, couldn't run, couldn't tackle and threw a rugby ball like others throw medicine balls.
The only reason the WRU played him because they wanted to save face due to huge salary they paid him... the same goes to Andy Farrell.

PS - Gareth Thomas, Jonathan Davies, Scott Quinnell, Tuigamala, Botica & Timu were all union players at the beginning of their careers and only moved to league because it was pro and at the time union was amateur... they weren't league players who went to union like your post insinuated.

The same goes for Bateman, Bentley, Tait, Young, Gibbs, Offiah etc etc in the UK at the very least.

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:16 pm

The criticism of the thread is as posters have said above - many of the players listed above have (in some cases famously) come through union grass roots system but you've used them as a basis to say that Rugby Union doesn't develop any players (ignoring huge amounts of players from each country) and that Rugby League develop far more.

But there is little concrete proof available to make this statement.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:20 pm

Everyone make the mistake Smirnoff! I can admit when I do this and changed the list. So still it is some impressive list of talents that were develop by rugby league!! (admitted less Welsh player than I thought!)

I guess I got some bad information and make me have a skew opinion! But here is the value of debate forum is that I learn something!

Still I like is some lot of excellent players from League and more than identify by u20 "player to the year"! Don't you agree?

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:21 pm

AWOP wish you'd stop throwing about the racism card all the time. Can you point out where a poster has made a racially prejudicial remark to you? I can't find one on any of your threads. You could be reported to a mod for using such terms without proper grounds and the last thing ANY of wants to see is you getting a ban old chap.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:22 pm

Carpe Diem wrote:AWOP wish you'd stop throwing about the racism card all the time. Can you point out where a poster has made a racially prejudicial remark to you? I can't find one on any of your threads. You could be reported to a mod for using such terms without proper grounds and the last thing ANY of wants to see is you getting a ban old chap.

Yes Carpe Diem, I could but the moderator remove his postings today already! The moderator agree already, so I think is NOT MY problem. Thankyou.

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:24 pm

Bollix

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:24 pm

Carpe Diem wrote:Bollix

Ask he moderators if you not believe me. Otherwise stop interrupt the thread again. Is supposed to be serious debate.,

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:27 pm

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:28 pm

I didn't see any remark, but I might have missed one, who was it from?

Also it seems a bit like a shot in the dark to make a racist remark against someone that you don't even know where they are from/which race they are!

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:32 pm

You are both trying to divert my thread so it gets deleted. Please stop posting irrelevances

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:33 pm

right

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:40 pm

Fair enough - you're argument (after amendments) is based on a list of 16 players who have converted from RL to RU (something that's been happening from one to the other since the codes split). Of that list there's only a handful of World Class stars, fair enough those stars were/are huge talents but you could hardly claim that they are head and shoulders above the other stars produced by their nations through grass roots rugby union.
You also can't claim that the majority of World Class rugby union players have been developed in league or that league developed players are much better than union developed players.

As such the point of the thread seems some what moot - could be why not many people have posted on it....

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:43 pm

I did not claim "majority" smirnofff. I merely say that more star players come from league than from the u20 "player of the year".

So more RU stars develop by league than by the system to develop them.

is something interesting in my mind.

by caoimhincentre Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:45 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:I did not claim "majority" smirnofff. I merely say that more star players come from league than from the u20 "player of the year".

So more RU stars develop by league than by the system to develop them.

is something interesting in my mind.

Look at all the world class players who didnt win U20 "Player of the Year".

Poor argument this is.

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:48 pm

So you're point is that more league players convert to union than the 1 RU player who wins the 'U20's Player of the Year award' each year?

Wouldn't be hard, would only take 2 good league converts each year - and considering there now seems more money in union and we are poaching some very good players from league it's hardly suprising.
What this has to do with Union's grass roots or player development though...

If you said that most unions U20's teams/international teams were made up from players who played league rugby through the age grades then it might be interesting/cause for concern

by fa0019 Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:49 pm

A serious debate would be one which has an actual topic to debate... not one that is just meant to wind people up... or at the very least show that you can't even be bothered to research what you're posting.... a simple search online would suffice in near all cases.

Here is a genuine tip.... research what you say. It doesn't matter how outlandish your point of view is... if you can back it up with credible evidence/support its hard to at least not accept as a credible point of view.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:49 pm

Caoimhin...this is second part article. I know has been sabotage my WUMs but if you look I am compare how well the IRB U20 "player of the year" is pick. And compare how well we can spot talent and where it source from.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:50 pm

So here Fa0019 consider:

How many IRB U20 Player of the year feature in a RWC winning side?

How many rugby league convert feature in a RWC winning wide?

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:51 pm

But the IRB player of the year is selected from ONE competition, the JWC, as such it doesn't really mean an awful lot apart from a nice pat on the back. I can't see where you're going with this.

by caoimhincentre Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:52 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:Caoimhin...this is second part article. I know has been sabotage my WUMs but if you look I am compare how well the IRB U20 "player of the year" is pick. And compare how well we can spot talent and where it source from.

i still dont see your argument.

The majority of the league players you have selected are average players.

At underage level you dont know how players will develop

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:55 pm

fa0019 wrote:A serious debate would be one which has an actual topic to debate... not one that is just meant to wind people up... or at the very least show that you can't even be bothered to research what you're posting.... a simple search online would suffice in near all cases.

Here is a genuine tip.... research what you say. It doesn't matter how outlandish your point of view is... if you can back it up with credible evidence/support its hard to at least not accept as a credible point of view.

+1

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:55 pm

Carpe Diem wrote:But the IRB player of the year is selected from ONE competition, the JWC, as such it doesn't really mean an awful lot apart from a nice pat on the back. I can't see where you're going with this.

We can arguing that the JRWC should show casing the best U20 talents developed via rugby channel. From that one player is picked as the "best" and get this award.

Now, how often does this player picked become senior great? Not much.

So is picking wrong? or is development in rugby a bit broken? This is topic to discuss on Friday.

Now today I add new thought which is how many times star player developed in league and come to union to starring role? Yes, quite a lot.

So can we learn from rugby league developemental? Quite a innocuous point. I'm not sure why so many "ruffle feathers"

by fa0019 Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:57 pm

So you're asking me to compare the 10 odd years where the IRB has chosen 1 player each year as world junior player of the year or whatever vs. 7 tournaments of RWC where squads have 30 players in them.. so you're asking me to pool lets say 200 odd players vs. 10... most of whom are still under 25.

Do you think thats a sensible comparison????

Kaino won jrwc player of the year back in the day.. not sure of any others. So thats 1 for U20s player of the years in RWC.

Well without checking I can say SA have none, ENG had 1 in Robinson, NZ have 1 in Thorn, otherwise I can't think of any off the toop of my head. So thats 2.

So 2 league converts in 200 players in RWC winning teams (without checking) vs. 1 player in 10 available.

Thats a great argument there.... Doh

by caoimhincentre Mon 02 Jul 2012, 4:58 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
Carpe Diem wrote:But the IRB player of the year is selected from ONE competition, the JWC, as such it doesn't really mean an awful lot apart from a nice pat on the back. I can't see where you're going with this.

We can arguing that the JRWC should show casing the best U20 talents developed via rugby channel. From that one player is picked as the "best" and get this award.

Now, how often does this player picked become senior great? Not much.

So is picking wrong? or is development in rugby a bit broken? This is topic to discuss on Friday.

Now today I add new thought which is how many times star player developed in league and come to union to starring role? Yes, quite a lot.

So can we learn from rugby league developemental? Quite a innocuous point. I'm not sure why so many "ruffle feathers"

wrong you are again.

look at the RU players that develop into world class players that have NOT won U20 player of the year.

U20 player of the year goes on 3 weeks performance hence why there is such a sku.

The majorty of the players that you have mentioned we average at best.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 5:00 pm

That not make me wrong again!!! In fact is my point exactly.

How this award is so often not identify best player!

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 5:00 pm

Carpe Diem wrote:But the IRB player of the year is selected from ONE competition, the JWC, as such it doesn't really mean an awful lot apart from a nice pat on the back. I can't see where you're going with this.

He reckons that because a player from say England/Wales/Scotland/Ireland (like Ford I believe) could win the JWC U20s World Player of the Year but if that players team doesn't win the World Cup but a established league player is head hunted by NZ and wins the WC with them (SBW) then that must automatically mean that the whole Rugby Union grass roots system isn't as good as Rugby Leagues...

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 02 Jul 2012, 5:02 pm

Enough of this thread i have had. Leave it now i will. Around the survivors a defensive perimeter create.

by caoimhincentre Mon 02 Jul 2012, 5:04 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:That not make me wrong again!!! In fact is my point exactly.

How this award is so often not identify best player!

but it does. but its only judged over the performance of three weeks. not their overall potential

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 02 Jul 2012, 5:08 pm

Me too Carpe Diem - I'm leaving this thead as well, I can't believe I got sucked in by a WUM again .

Def not the way to Seize the Day...

by **RDW** Mon 02 Jul 2012, 5:16 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
Carpe Diem wrote:AWOP wish you'd stop throwing about the racism card all the time. Can you point out where a poster has made a racially prejudicial remark to you? I can't find one on any of your threads. You could be reported to a mod for using such terms without proper grounds and the last thing ANY of wants to see is you getting a ban old chap.

Yes Carpe Diem, I could but the moderator remove his postings today already! The moderator agree already, so I think is NOT MY problem. Thankyou.

To confirm the stance that the moderaters took; all racist accusations are monitored carefully, and that in this instance even though we could find no proof a racist term was used, the post was removed as it had offended a poster regardless.

by **Biltong** Mon 02 Jul 2012, 5:22 pm

As RDW indicated above, I dealt with the accusation of the racial slur.

We didn't deem it racial as it had to be bent sideways to get there.

It was simply removed due to sensitivity of the OP.

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