Warren Gatland Wales Coach: Time Up? Part 1

First topic message reminder :

Relative insomnia has led to this. I'll conclude it in the next few days, it's a bit of a mammoth read, and it's in response to questions over Gatland's position (it started as a reply in another thread, but quickly become something much more monstrous, hence it not reading perfectly in certain places). Good luck getting to the bottom...



This is ridiculous. I remember similar sentiments after the tour to South Africa in '08 when, having won the Grand Slam earlier that year, the fans were calling, in quite a sizeable quantity, for him to be sacked due to the team being outclassed (bar Shane) by the current world champions on their own turf. This mere months after exiting the World Cup in shambolic fashion.

The problem is that, deep down, many Welsh fans believe, expect and demand the Welsh rugby team to be the best in the world. The reality is we're probably consistently around the top 5, but when we start to get some sustained success, be it a GS or a decent World Cup performance, those fans who have had to bite their tongues on their view on Wales' standing in world rugby think that, this time, Wales will return to the top. And so you'll get this kneejerk response, not too dissimilar to what happens in football, when a team is perceived to have underachieved/failed, be it one game, a Test series, or a season.

I call it a problem, in reality it's also a strength; it's the passion and belief in the country and team, one I also share. But it needs to be tempered with reality, reason and more than a 'next game' mentality.

Firstly, Gatland instilled a bit of pride back in a team that had become, frankly, a joke. After a slow introduction into professional rugby, abetted by Henry and Hansen, and, whatever your opinion on it, blowing the opportunity to have a modern, tactically adept Welsh coach to take over their initial success and peel back the negative aspects of amateurism, we regressed. Ruddock failed, and so the Union turned to Gareth Jenkins. With hindsight, the job clearly came too late in his career. He is obviously a highly talented rugby man and one I have so much respect for; his current work in producing academy players is proof of this. Yet his methodology as a Head Coach for a national team was fifteen, perhaps more, years out of date. After a 60-odd point thrashing at Twickenham, and the directionless and anaemic rugby at the world cup, the Union appointed Gatland.

The '05 was won due to Wales actually producing more than a few genuinely talented players in the same team, in a structure implemented by the Kiwi coaches, and, as always in sport, luck. It was probably the most 'glorious'; coming 27 years since the last one, Gavin's kick, the 'sexy' rugby we played. The '08 still had a core of that team, in fact it was probably more talented; you look at the likes of Luscombe, Sidoli, Cockbain etc., and realise many of the '05 team were in there due to lack of alternative. It was won, again, in part thanks to luck, but with a bit more than '05. There was a grit and steel that perhaps came by surprise, but was easy to produce due to the World Cup, the players' pride, and, of course, new coach syndrome, exacerbated no doubt by Gatland's nationality and Edwards'...'force of will'! Perhaps the most important factor, or at least a key component, was Shane. After the fortunate opening game against England, where we only really played for about 10 minutes and still won, Shane was responsible for blowing away Italy and Scotland, was the difference in a tight Ireland game, and got the try that set us on our way to defeating France. He certainly contributed massively to Gatland and Wales winning the '08 Grand Slam.

The sense of a new period or generation is marked between Jenkins' WC team, and Gatland's GS team. Mentality, expectation and attitude all changed quickly, helped by Ryan Jones' best season, and professional captaincy, and new players becoming first team players such as Byrne, Phillips and Hook. In the Northern Hemisphere at least, two Grand Slams in 3 years negated the intervening shambles as a bit of a 'blip', and garnered some semblance of respect from the competing nations. Gatland's response was 'two years'; two years until Wales become a top class, internationally respected and feared rugby team.

What followed was mixed. A difficult tour, rugby-wise, to South Africa, which saw (what now seems obvious, but was at that time inspired) Jamie Roberts converted from a three quarter to inside centre so that, twelve months later, he would be the Man of the Lions Series. There was a hint in the second test that Wales might draw the series, but alas. Two defeats, but progress, certainly: a realisation of the effort needed to compete, and really compete, with the SANZAR nations. In the autumn, their only SANZAR victory was against Australia, with a late try from the Wallabies making the result and game seem like more of a contest than, in reality, it was. Disappointingly, Wales lost narrowly to South Africa at home, 15-20. This was still a World Cup winning team, and a team that had comprehensively beaten Wales twice a few months earlier. Gatland stated he was 'furious' with the missed opportunities to win the game. This theme, of Wales running the Boks close at the Millenium Stadium, was a theme that is, disappointingly, still far too common. A good first half against NZ, with a 9-6 lead after the first 40, led to a jittery feeling that 'this might be it, 50-odd years over': Wales were outclassed in the second half, losing 9-29. The Tri-Nations champions were still several leagues away, and another theme, of Wales only playing well enough in one half, or for shorter periods, would become entrenched in the fans' psyche.

The '09 Six Nations began with a top class 60 minute performance at Murrayfield, and a composed, 8 point victory over England at the Millenium Stadium. Two victories. Back to back Grand Slams, many thought, inevitable. But France ended that possibility in Paris, in a game I didn't really watch at the time, being thrown out of the pub not long after the final whistle (mess). But it was a close match; perhaps if Henson had given the pass at the end, it may have resulted in victory. Grand Slam off the agenda, Gatland rotated the team considerably for a trip to Rome, only two years after losing in acrimonious circumstances. A nervy game was saved with a late try by Tom Shanklin. Gatland's lesson was learnt, and the mistake has not been repeated since, and, I'm certain, never will be. The final game against Ireland, a tight game which was so evenly matched in almost all respects, was won by Ronan O'Gara's boot and Ireland's desire to risk it at crucial moments, which led to tries. Mere inches gave them the Grand Slam in the final seconds of the game. Wales finished a disappointing fourth, having gone into the final game hoping to retain their title, but this was married with three victories, two close defeats, and encouraging individual and team performances. To conclude the season, many Wales players made the starting Lions XV and squad, a squad under the tutelage of McGeechan, Gatland and Howley. Wales' tour to North America saw progress as well; planning for the future, both in terms of coaching and players as McBryde led the tour, whilst the first team boys enhanced their reputations on the world stage. Perhaps the only negative of the season, aside from the team's inability to maintain the level of performance displayed in the first hour at Murrayfield, was Ryan Jones' shocking loss of form. The shoe-in Lions captain twelve months earlier was almost apologetically called away from America whilst injured, and was sent home soon after arriving in South Africa after seeing the Lions' doctor.

This loss of leadership is rarely considered when looking back on the '08-'09 season. In reality, the reaction was disappointment at the time. Many, myself included, thought Wales would maintain the title, perhaps even with another Slam. But it was a good season, one which saw one Tri-Nations team defeated and another pushed frustratingly close, a decent if ultimately unflattering 4th place finish in the 6N, and many Welsh players given the honour of representing, proudly, the Lions jersey. In performances, there was a more controlled, disciplined approach now; a tactical game which still relied on fast flowing rugby, but at the right time, was beginning to take shape.

I don't think enough people given enough credit to that season. It was, for me, an encouraging one. The beginning of the next season saw Wales fall agonisingly short of NZ; Wales matched NZ with what was perceived as a 'set the foundations in the first half, win the game in the second' mentality, and went in level, 6-6 at half time. AWJ's breakaway so nearly led to a 19-17 score, with a conversion to come. But Wales lost. Disappointingly, a changed side (in change strip) laboured to victory over Samoa, leading to questions over the depth of quality in the Wales. Argentina were brushed aside, thanks to Shane, and Australia, and new kid on the block Pocock, gave Wales a masterclass, winning 12-33. Tactically, Wales were implementing a plan more successfully; take points when on offer, try and limit a team to no more than 10-15 points, do not concede a try, and certainly not tries, and, if an overlap/opportunity occurs to put width on it, take it. The decade passed, and the '10 6N began at England, with a 30-17 loss, with mistakes now becoming a buzz theme; AWJ's loss of concentration, SJ's intercepted pass. It seemed that the team had the talent, but not the mental discipline. One of the most legendary games of international rugby occurred in the next game. Shane Williams' last minute try against Scotland won the most marvelous of games, and I still feel like I should have sent the man next to me a text out of politeness, such was the intensity with which we embraced. Thrilling, yes, but progress, it was not. Chuck it to Shane was the exact kind of regression we did not want. Mistakes led to the French building an unassailable lead, and this time the fight back came in the second 40, but to no avail. Ireland gave the the team something of a lesson in Dublin, and Wales finished a highly disappointing 6N, and another 4th place, with two victories after beating a poor Italy at the Millenium Stadium. A one off, money raising game against a weakened South Africa team saw Wales take a commanding, 13 point lead, only to throw it away, let the South Africans take a commanding lead, before throwing everything at them in the last few minutes to see what happens. 31-34. Loss. Fits and bursts stuff from Wales, playing decent rugby only for a few minutes at a time, before a mistake would occur. The NZ summer tour saw a weakened Welsh team schooled in the first test, much like two years previously, only to show a bit of fight in the second. A late, unnecessary try from NZ left the score 29-10 in that one.

All in all, this was the season Gatland had set on Wales becoming World Class. He failed. Whereas I and many others saw the progress the previous season had created, this was one that, on the surface, gave us nothing. One step forward, three steps back? For part of it, the team was carrying a woeful captain and number 8, and Andy Powell, after a promising debut, failed to live up to expectations to replace Ryan Jones. Indeed, performances as a whole did not live up to expectations the Autumn had set, and the Six Nations was, ultimately, a failure. Injuries played a key part; whilst there was undoubted talent in the certain positions (the Lions front row, Roberts, Shane, Byrne), the replacements behind were simply not of international standard. Hook had lost his place, deservedly, to Stephen Jones, and Phillips was becoming cumbersome and not the dynamic, bombastic 9 the Lions had seen. Mistakes also were key; individual errors were common, and dwelt upon by the coaches. The fear of making one, and perhaps losing your place in the side, led to the conservative rugby, where no one 'put their hand up' as a ball carrier, or was seen to actively try and 'win' the game. Only Shane, it seemed, was above this, the sole saving grace in an often stagnant side. It was only when behind, and seemingly out of the game, that Wales played. That they did was proof that they could; that they could proved they were talented rugby players, but something wasn't clicking. So, to conclude the '10 season, injuries revealed the lack of depth, mistakes were punishable in the regime targeting minimal mistakes, and negative and fearful rugby resulted. One positive, perhaps, from injuries was the 'blooding' of players; Sam Warburton had arrived on the scene, much hearlded amongst the age grade ranks, and perhaps an alternative to Marytn Williams who, for all his talent, was an anachronism, albeit world class anachronism, in a fast changing sport. No longer was Richie McCaw a beast unlike any other; SA had Brussouw, Wales certainly knew the Wallabies had Pocock. The need for a modern pilfering, poaching 7 would, in time, be answered by that man. But still, a very disappointing season, and Gatland was over his honeymoon.

miaow wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:"Any team worth its salt is only really concerned about competing with the best in the world and that ain't the 6Ns.

So, by that measure, England aren't one of the best teams in the world...?

Not Now, but they was the very best in the WORLD IN 2003.

Not wanting to rub salt in to the wounds of Wales, but to be the best you have to win a RUGBY WORLD CUP.

And that is one thing that Wales have not won at all.

Congratulations, very well spotted maj.

is this the most boring illustration of the 'England are better than Wales or were way back in 2003' argument that i have ever seen?

"So, by that measure, England aren't one of the best teams in the world...? "

You're bright! (not). Do you always state the obvious and then put a smiley at the end? You can say what you like but it doesn't make wales any better either does it?

Great another thread over run by trolls...!


Mods, we are here to talk about rugby. We don't want these idiots ruining all the threads...!

Please start doing a bit more.

Now that Maj has brought up the 03 RWC. Its maybe not a coincidence that the only teams to have won a RWC are ranked 1-4 at the moment.

englandglory4ever wrote:"So, by that measure, England aren't one of the best teams in the world...? "

You're bright! (not). Do you always state the obvious and then put a smiley at the end? You can say what you like but it doesn't make wales any better either does it?

Wow. The comment was pointing out, as much as anything else, the beautiful irony of your username. Not sure how you deduced how bright I was from that. I presume you haven't actually read the article, which would have at least given you some idea that, at the very least, I'm not thick as sheet.


Please leave the article alone. This has nothing to do with England.

Madge,

You surprise me. You wrote a post in passable English for once. Shame about the they was bit and the fact that you can't grasp making posts relevant to a thread concerning Warren Gatland's position as Wales' Head Coach, but well done you.

Risca Rev wrote:Madge,

You surprise me. You wrote a post in passable English for once. Shame about the they was bit and the fact that you can't grasp making posts relevant to a thread concerning Warren Gatland's position as Wales' Head Coach, but well done you.

miaow

of course it has everything to do with england as far as some of these english fans are concerned. Little Englander is spot on.

English fans have justifiably been able to slate wales for years, now they know they are 2nd best which is why they do this, its the actions of desperate men who know that while we are on the up they are most definitely not. A laughable world cup followed by 2nd to Wales in the 6 Nations, which of course they would have won if the earth was flat.

If English fans find any comfort in being 4th in the world and feel that they are anywhere near the standard of being best in the world or still want to dine out on 2003 then let them continue their delusions. Its a sure sign they have nothing else to say.

Not sure if you're fishing there, mowgli, but I have to disagree with a laughable World Cup. Despite the perceived 'controversy', they still reached the QFs. Hardly laughable. Perhaps more would've been expected given the promise from certain elements in the side, and the 6N win, but this was a side that was built without any real focus or purpose, which is, to bring it back to the OP, unlike what I believe Gatland is doing with Wales.

I haven't been using the new 606 for very long. Shame that a lot of the old pettiness has carried over from the old site.

If English fans find any comfort in being 4th in the world and feel that they are anywhere near the standard of being best in the world or still want to dine out on 2003 then let them continue their delusions. Its a sure sign they have nothing else to say.
mowgli


Posts: 252
Join date: 2012-06-18



mowgli

I do agree with you that being fourth in the World, is not like being ranked number 1 in the world.

But, it is a dam sight better than being ranked 6th in the WORLD. And thinking that your team is betteer than that.

maestegmafia wrote:Great another thread over run by trolls...!


Mods, we are here to talk about rugby. We don't want these idiots ruining all the threads...!

Please start doing a bit more.

majesticimperialman wrote:

miaow wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:"Any team worth its salt is only really concerned about competing with the best in the world and that ain't the 6Ns.

So, by that measure, England aren't one of the best teams in the world...?

Not Now, but they was the very best in the WORLD IN 2003.

Not wanting to rub salt in to the wounds of Wales, but to be the best you have to win a RUGBY WORLD CUP.

And that is one thing that Wales have not won at all.

You actually don't have to be the best to win a world cup, you need a run of three wins in the knock outs.

New Zealand has proven the best team in the world doesn't always win the world cup.

biltongbek wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

miaow wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:"Any team worth its salt is only really concerned about competing with the best in the world and that ain't the 6Ns.

So, by that measure, England aren't one of the best teams in the world...?

Not Now, but they was the very best in the WORLD IN 2003.

Not wanting to rub salt in to the wounds of Wales, but to be the best you have to win a RUGBY WORLD CUP.

And that is one thing that Wales have not won at all.

You actually don't have to be the best to win a world cup, you need a run of three wins in the knock outs.

New Zealand has proven the best team in the world doesn't always win the world cup.

Yes i agree with you on that biltonbeck. But at the same time, I cannot recall a time, any time when New Zealand have been 6th in the IRB world Rankins. In fact i dont recall that there has been that many times when New Zealand have not been favourites to win the Rugby World Cup.

SA was 5th or 6th when Jake White took over, even when we went to the RWC in 2007 I think we were only 3rd favourites to win.

In my view the important factor is to have the ability and belief to beat anyone, results of course in the preceding 4 years are vital though, if you go to the RWC without having beaten any of those top teams, it is unlikely to have the belief once the tournament starts.

majesticimperialman wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

miaow wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:"Any team worth its salt is only really concerned about competing with the best in the world and that ain't the 6Ns.

So, by that measure, England aren't one of the best teams in the world...?

Not Now, but they was the very best in the WORLD IN 2003.

Not wanting to rub salt in to the wounds of Wales, but to be the best you have to win a RUGBY WORLD CUP.

And that is one thing that Wales have not won at all.

You actually don't have to be the best to win a world cup, you need a run of three wins in the knock outs.

New Zealand has proven the best team in the world doesn't always win the world cup.

Yes i agree with you on that biltonbeck. But at the same time, I cannot recall a time, any time when New Zealand have been 6th in the IRB world Rankins. In fact i dont recall that there has been that many times when New Zealand have not been favourites to win the Rugby World Cup.

So you now agree with what Biltong says, despite totally contradicting it earlier? Brilliant

Anyone got anything to add to the topic of the thread?

Does anyone know if it's been rubber-stamped that Howley's going to be taking the reins for next season's AIs and the Six Nations?

Miaow, I'm obviously late onto this thread and it's already been torpedoed into the usual deep seas of "we're less bad than you" ...
But thanks for posting it anyway! Very thoughtful and well reasoned.

This desire to dump a manager the moment things don't go as planned seems to be an international disease that many countries and sports suffer from.
People forget the position they were in prior to the arrival of the latest Messiah (who will inevitably be found to be human after all and nailed to a tree).
What I really wonder at is who would you replace Gatland with that anyone could be certain would be better? If there is no clear successor then surely you stick with the guy that returned pride to the team, structured a very efficient game-plan and to me (and okay I am a bear of very little brain) seems capable of continuing to improve an already impressive side?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Does anyone know if it's been rubber-stamped that Howley's going to be taking the reins for next season's AIs and the Six Nations?

It pretty much is... unfortunately.

Gatlands rep and acehivements are hardly on a low at the moment are they.I know the brief flirtation with 4th best in the world gave rise to some OTT media statements and unrealistic expectations from sections of the welsh fanbase but overall he surely must still be in credit with the Union.

Given his input over the next 12 months will be minimal, and has been reduced since his accident, any decline over the forthcoming period can hardly belayed at his door.

That means post lions he comes back with a strong reputation and a contract through to the next worldcup, and a get out of jail card fro the first year to blame Howley if the side has gone to poo.
Given the results and performances that led to him being given his contract extension previously where Wales had becoming very much a losing side what do you think the chances are that he wont be allowed to see this contract out?

I think the chances are very low Peter. There aren't exactly a lot of Welsh qualified coaches who could do the job and there aren't a lot of foreign coaches who are better than Gatland who would be available.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:That means post lions he comes back with a strong reputation

Depending on how the tour goes...

I would still say the fortunes of welsh rugby depend a hell of a lot more in producing very good players and who coaches them to get to international level rather than thinking that the national coach, whoever it is, makes a huge amount of difference...

Are there more parts to this series?

Yeah, Miaow still has to do the part from the RWC last year.

Haha, sorry, yeah, didn't realise these articles were in demand! Will try and get on with the conclusion, and, in the most roundabout of ways, the point I was trying to make about Gatland, when I have time, which might be tonight.

We are looking forward with anticipation...!

Good work mate, good reading