Wimbledon Final: Federer v Murray

First topic message reminder :

Ok, I got this in first!

I can't make a forecast as I'm not rational on the subject, but fire away!

gotta support the scottie- but then i even support irish an all..

The truth is when any oif us do well - it helps us all.

we are all the same when it boils down to it- Even the welsh

mystiroakey wrote:Even the welsh

made me laugh

Who cares what part of the planet a peron is born on? Doesn't connect them to me.

bogbrush wrote:Who cares what part of the planet a peron is born on?

tends to be Argentina...

I personally think we need to support our players and the fruits of our joint sporting systems, that we are a part of by paying tax etc etc. Our countries also become better of as a result of successes

That just makes sense to me- however also nothing wrong with supporting others as well

I think the Queen has a full weekend of engagements up in Scotland this weekend but some members of the Royal family will be in attendance.

I'm not that bothered really, if Murray wins then he's won against a guy who even Benneteau should have beat and if he loses then its laugh at Craig day. Win and win. Murray cannot start slow like he did in his other finals.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:I'm not that bothered really.

Methinks he doth protest too much...............................

Laugh at Craig day? How utterly pathetic. It isn't me who has been predicting a Murray exit since the start of the tournament yet still posts up tripe do denigrate a Wimbledon Finalist. How does it feel to be so utterly out of touch with a modicum of tennis knowledge.

Win or lose tomorrow Andy Murray has done something no British man has done for 74 years and quite possibly won't be achieved for just as long in the future. I'll sit back and enjoy the tennis whatever the result - unlike you.

mystiroakey wrote:I personally think we need to support our players and the fruits of our joint sporting systems, that we are a part of by paying tax etc etc. Our countries also become better of as a result of successes

That just makes sense to me- however also nothing wrong with supporting others as well

"Our" players?

I have no idea how a person winning an event makes this country better.

Any tax taken from me to support another individual achieve their own personal ambitions is taken from me under protest. Helping old ladies = good, helping people become millionaire sportsmen = bad.

well thats were we differ big time- the more spent on sport the better for me. Success breeds more players at the amatuer levels. Its just win win win win!! Id much rather kids play sports than hang out on streets etc.. I cant press this issue enough. kids look up to sports stars they can relate to. and long may we have success

That's very laudable mystiroakey, but why must it be at public expense? Can't some of the millionaire players put their hands in their pockets to support the system?

Of course success breeds success. For evidence of that look at things such as hockey. In the early 1980's we only qualified for the Olympics due to other countries boycotting and from nowhere we snatched a surprise medal. Since then our teams have got stronger and now qualify on merit and are now genuine medal contenders. Similarly, the same goes in cycling where we have gradually built a medal win team in cycling and now have challengers for the Tour De France. I am sure there are many other examples of success breeding success in sport in this country. Should Federer win tomorrow then congratulations to him it will delight his fans but won't do anything to boost tennis in this country and that is a fact.

I like Scottish athletes usually however i've never watched a Murray match that i've enjoyed in the slightest, I swear if he wasn't a tennis player he'd be making a fool of himself in clubs every friday night. Jamie is far more likeable than his spoilt brother.

Thing is, I don't care what nationality any human is. I just go with what I see.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:I like Scottish athletes usually however i've never watched a Murray match that i've enjoyed in the slightest, I swear if he wasn't a tennis player he'd be making a fool of himself in clubs every friday night. Jamie is far more likeable than his spoilt brother.

A random accusation with no factual basis or logical progression - I haven't seen any of those in the comments in the tabloids today

Thats a good attitude BB for most things. but supporting the people around us makes the world a better place. If we all help our neighbours then thats enough support for everyone to do anything- that lack of community is what sort of blights us - especially in the big cities. There are many parralels with sporting support. We want our kids to play sport- therefore it doesnt really matter who we support, its more about who they support

If sport didnt have fans from people they can relate to then no one would play sport in the first place.. Its a very important part of the cog.

its all well and good come over all high and mighty and try to diminesh supporting a particular nation when it comes to sports. But it doesnt help anyone spouting that from a PC. The thousands of kids from scotland and many from england,wales and NI are gonna get out there and pick up tennis rackets next week based on waht murray has done. They look up to someone they can relate to-0 Its a very natural way of feeling and not in the slightest bit backwards- When we get older it gets harder to support our own- especially in sports when we just dont have hardly any players, or in others when they are in the papers week in week out up to naighty stuff!

the reason why britain has about 60 competitive golfers and th words 1 2 and 3 at present is partly from watching faldo winning majors all them years ago!

I'm not high and mighty, and I'm not spouting. I just not care what patch of land a person comes from. It makes them no more or less relevant to me.

So what if three good golfers come from Britain? How does that enrich my life?

So what if a kid from England wants to emulate Murray? Why not emulate Federer, or Djokovic, or Nadal? why not copy the most beautiful play, or most gutsy competitor rather than copying someone because the were born none same island?

Supporting people on tribal bases does not make the World a better place. Very, very far from it.

You are missing the point bogbrush. No matter how much YOU may feel that way that is not what inspires youngsters. Ask youngsters who watch any sport and the inspiration comes from people they can identify with and to be able to identify with them they have to have something in common and more times than not that will be that sportsman's place of birth. The adulation/press coverage/media coverage/television coverage coupled with history being made if Andy Murray were to win tomorrow stands a great chance of capturing budding young tennis players imagination far more than if Roger wins. Roger's win will be chalked up as a marvellous achievement for the Swiss player and adored by his many fans and round of his great career but that will be it.

Yes, for most of developed countries nationality plays no role in supporting sports fans. Also the people from these countries should understand those other people who have had a political/military conflict in recent history with a neighboring countries and dislike those sportsman.

We all should abide that sport knows no borders or race, but in reality some sort of nationalistic politics is behind everything. It's a human thing.

BB as craig says its not about the reality of how and why people support the players they do.. Its the fact that they do and success breeds success. If you know of someone local that has acheived you believe more than some dude from a forign land- our tennis drought is compounding itself over and over again because we just dont believe we can do anything. If we can get more kids into sport in anyway i am for it. Supporting home players doenst make anyone racist, it doesnt make us feel superior or different.

Even if the world was one country and we stripped down all boundaries- we would still have counties/states, the people within those counties would support the people from there counties. If then counties borders where stripped we would support poeople local or even within the same street... Its human nature to care and feel motivated and support ones local to ourselfs -that is the fabric of our society and the world is a much better place- The one main moral i agree with in the bible is to look after and support our neighbours. If everyone did that the world would be a better place..

CaledonianCraig wrote:You are missing the point bogbrush. No matter how much YOU may feel that way that is not what inspires youngsters. Ask youngsters who watch any sport and the inspiration comes from people they can identify with and to be able to identify with them they have to have something in common and more times than not that will be that sportsman's place of birth. The adulation/press coverage/media coverage/television coverage coupled with history being made if Andy Murray were to win tomorrow stands a great chance of capturing budding young tennis players imagination far more than if Roger wins. Roger's win will be chalked up as a marvellous achievement for the Swiss player and adored by his many fans and round of his great career but that will be it.

That's mainly because they get brainwashed by idiotic concepts like patriotism. The press adulation thing you refer to is all part of the same mass delerium. Wouldn't it be cool if they found inspiration regardless of whether a guy from the same island won? Then they could take it up regardless.

The same stuff happens when they get told Santa exists, the Tooth Fairy takes their teeth a that there's a God. We let them off the first two but most get saddled with the rest and carry the nonsense around all their lives.

Totally messes things up unfortunately.

Its not just nationalism either is it- how many more people got into F1 after hamiltons success, same goes for tiger and golf an all. How many more people got into rap once enimem got on the seen. We have more participation when more people from different races and cultures and nations get into things- the world gets more evolved through participation. And people/kids get into thsoe things due to relating to that sportsman or musician or whatever!!

I wanna see my country get more kids out there playing sport- one oway that is gonna happen is by getting more home winners- that is a great attitude to have in my book. and isnt just whimsey- its fact

The press/media thing is not the issue though. It is children themselves who make up their minds. Ask young rowers today for their boyhood idols and it'll be Sir Steven Redgrave or Matthew Pinsent, ask budding young footballers and they are out to emulate David Beckham or Wayne Rooney, ask budding cricketers and it will be Andrew Flintoff or Ian Botham etc etc etc. That is an inescapable fact. Federer wins tomorrow and yourself and other fans of his here will be wrapped, it will add another slam to Fed's total and he will break Sampras record for most week's at No.1 but that is it.

mystiroakey wrote:Its not just nationalism either is it- how many more people got into F1 after hamiltons success

I dunno, would you like to tell us? Or is this just speculation that can't be proven?

See,the problem here is that you think it's better that kids in one particular country get into it, and you see that f*cking up their minds with patriotism combined with a Brit winning is the best way. I'd rather have them unburdened by that garbage and free to be inspired by any great player from anywhere.

Not only does my system work better, as there's more inspiration available, it has the advantage of not forcing brain control on children. Plus it reduces the chances of them growing up with irrational loyalty or dislikes.

The fact is there is the biggest plot hole in BB's argument- You have to
dig deep to find it- but if there was no nationlistic or local pride
the world would just become either a selfish place and blow itself up or
this impossible uptoium society and sport and competition wouldnt be a
part of it.

Sport only EXISTED oin the first place because we want this competitive
envioroment, because people want to prove themselves against that
DIFFERENT person. What should we do BB, knock team international
tournies on the head?

It is not a matter of what myself or mysti thinks or wants it is plainly the way it has been for generations.

mystiroakey wrote:The fact is there is the biggest plot hole in BB's argument- You have to
dig deep to find it- but if there was no nationlistic or local pride
the world would just become either a selfish place and blow itself up or
this impossible uptoium society and sport and competition wouldnt be a
part of it.

Sport only EXISTED oin the first place because we want this competitive
envioroment, because people want to prove themselves against that
DIFFERENT person. What should we do BB, knock team international
tournies on the head?

Oh My God. Someone thinks nationalism stops people having wars. I'm gonna have to sit down on reading that!

Sport exists because people play stuff. I took up tennis because I liked watching people do it and fancied having a go. Flying a flag wasn't in my calculations.

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is not a matter of what myself or mysti thinks or wants it is plainly the way it has been for generations.

Because of idiots brainwashing children. So let's embrace the process?

Sport is a competitive excersise BB. You also missread the point- take the uptopium society example if you cant look into the selfish aspect by not supporting your neighhbours

Yes BB but it is an unavoidable fact that youngsters are inspired by those they can relate to and more often than not it is a fellow countryman. I do believe Freddie Flintoff's idol was Ian Botham and that is one example off the top of my head.

And idiots? A bit strong that is it not? Especially if it leads to a Freddie Flintoff for example breaking through.

Cant you see the pitfulls of sport by bringing down all the boundaries BB. Cant you see that sport wouldnt exist in that type of society. Communities would cease to exist- sport would with it- No one would support there local sporting team. No businesses or councils would pay for sporting facilities.

Feedback from NON British tennis fans about Murray is generally negative, the reasonings are fair and balanced, he's pure vulgar and trashy. Murray winning on Sunday would be good for him and his family, nice, but it wouldn't really help bring about a bunch of world class British players. The LTA will still produce the same poor players that it always has.

Any belief based on irrationality is idiotic. Thinking you have a duty to support someone who has no more connection to you than an accident of birth is irrational.

Wouldn't the World be healthier if people related to others on the basis of their qualities rather than their accident of birth? And it's not Utopian, because it applies to me and many others.

Oh, and Roger Federers inspirations were Edberg, Becker and Sampras. Not a Swiss amongst them, not even Heinz Gunthart. Worked ok for him.

mystiroakey wrote:Cant you see the pitfulls of sport by bringing down all the boundaries BB. Cant you see that sport wouldnt exist in that type of society. Communities would cease to exist- sport would with it- No one would support there local sporting team. No businesses or councils would pay for sporting facilities.

People wouldn't play sport? Wouldn't race, or play footy?

Do you seriously believe that? Do you seriously believe we need Councils to have us play? Where do you think Councild get 'their' money from? The land was always there, thy didn't invent it.

I am not saying it is always the case though BB because it isn't and no it isn't idiotic. If a kid aspires to play tennis at the top level because of Murray success then that is a plus if that player goes on to make it in the sport is it not? Also if nationalism is so unimportant then why do we even bother naming the countries each player is representing? Also take it you won't be watching the Olympics with much interest either - the biggest sporting event in the world all based on nearly all the nations of the world competing against each other.

BB gonna pose a question to you. How would team sports exsit without local fans?

sport is about competition. kill local support, kill a sense of being and belonging- you kill it 100%.

I can understand it isnt that obvious- but break it down and you may get there

CaledonianCraig wrote:I am not saying it is always the case though BB because it isn't and no it isn't idiotic. If a kid aspires to play tennis at the top level because of Murray success then that is a plus if that player goes on to make it in the sport is it not?

Great, and wouldn't it be better if he oukd be inspired every year by a winner rather than waiting 74 years?

Also if nationalism is so unimportant then why do we even bother naming the countries each player is representing? Also take it you won't be watching the Olympics with much interest either - the biggest sporting event in the world all based on nearly all the nations of the world competing against each other.

Because, as I keep saying, the World is full of people brainwashed into tribal mentalities that have no basis in rational thought.
I will watch some bits of the Olympics with great interest, none of which will be inspired by tribalism. Oh, and it's people competing. The national thing is hogwash.

mystiroakey wrote:sport is about competition. kill local support, kill a sense of being and belonging- you kill it 100%.

I can understand it isnt that obvious- but break it down and you may get there

Sport is about competition. I never had support when I played down at the club, but that never put me off.

mystiroakey wrote:BB gonna pose a question to you. How would team sports exsit without local fans?

They already do.

ok so do you think that sport should be amatuer then BB?

Try telling that to the countries flag-bearers that it is hogwash. Obviously means something to Roger as well otherwise wouldn't he shun the honour? And no nobody is brainwashed at all. People aspire to represent their countries and see it as their greatest achievement in whatever sport they take up. Ask Bobby Charlton and he'll tell you his greatest moment was winning the World Cup with England not Division One (as it was then) with United.

SO BB this team you played in , and these teams that exist with no support- do the players invloved pay for the facilities? and what was your motivation to win?

support isnt just about fans watching- its also the local business, councils,pro sporting teams(that have support), schools,us as tax payers that have paid for the facilities

I think Patriotism is very important in Sport, it makes athletes fight for another cause other than for themselves, and makes their country feel like they are part of it, just look at Serbia

CAS as you may be aware- sport wouldnt exist without a sense of belonging and local to national support

Well the whole foundations in sport are based a lot on nationalism. Right back to the ancient Olympiad where men from (then different kingdoms) competed against one another. Sport and nationalism has gone hand in hand since then and that cannot be denied. Obviously, even Roger is patriotic as he does play in the Olympics and the Davis Cup.

mystiroakey wrote:ok so do you think that sport should be amatuer then BB?

No. What on Earth makes you think that? I'm all for people being paid fr providing a service.

I think you can argue its slightly different in Tennis where you follow an individual rather than a collective, and the international side of the game (Davis Cup) isn't the biggest part of the sport like it is in say Rugby, Cricket and Football. But If you look at John McEnroe when he played for USA I think thats some of the best tennis he played, he loved the aspect of fighting for many instead of himself