Apparently I'm not British...

by reckoner Mon 09 Jul 2012, 10:19 am

Did anyone see this failure of an article in the Torygraph?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon/9385370/Wimbledon-2012-if-you-didnt-support-the-Brit-you-arent-British.html#

picard

by carrieg4 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 10:26 am

Hmmm....a bit extreme. I think it was referring to non tennis fans whose reasons for supporting Fed had nothing to do with his sublime skills and everything to do with being ABM numptys (or should that be numpties - what is the plural of numpty??). It was not well written though.

Nothing wrong with supporting who you like for tennis reasons. After all, my support of Murray has little to do with him being British.

by bogbrush Mon 09 Jul 2012, 10:35 am

Idiocy.

I had a 3 page debate with a few guys about this sort of irrational thinking the other day.

The "journalist" is obviously writing as a stupid, patriotically-unfected fanboy and unfortunately stands as a prime example of why my brother was desperate to see Murray lose ysterday; not because of Murray but to spike these idiots guns. On the plus side, he's obviously hurting.

I don't go that far, but I know what my brother means.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 09 Jul 2012, 10:49 am

BB I have no problem people wanting Federer to win as long as it is for the correct try reasons such as they are fans of his. If it is purely because it is anyone but Murray or because he is Scottish then sorry it is sad and quite pathetic.

by reckoner Mon 09 Jul 2012, 10:56 am

I sympathise with your brother BB - I find this sort of nationalism quite distasteful. Even the Daily Fail didn't have a worse article!

by Jeremy_Kyle Mon 09 Jul 2012, 10:57 am

Apparently, even the so called serious newspapers are mandatorily required to have at least one idiot in their blogger area. Any reference to Simon Reed is purely coincidental.

by bogbrush Mon 09 Jul 2012, 10:59 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:BB I have no problem people wanting Federer to win as long as it is for the correct try reasons such as they are fans of his. If it is purely because it is anyone but Murray or because he is Scottish then sorry it is sad and quite pathetic.

To wish him to lose for nationalistic reasons is absolutely lame; it shares the defects I feel with nationalism with the negativity of wanting someone pulled down. Epic fail mentality.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:02 am

If people feel the need it want to get behind someone for nationalistic reasons then fine but when someone chooses the opposite view I feel it is wrong.

by carrieg4 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:05 am

It was a terrible article but I hope it was just aimed at people whose reasons for wanting Murray to lose are not tennis based. To wish someone to lose for the reasons CC mentioned or because the media get ridiculously giddy and jingoistic at this time of year is very sad. Tennis is all that counts in a tennis competition.

by bogbrush Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:05 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:If people feel the need it want to get behind someone for nationalistic reasons then fine but when someone chooses the opposite view I feel it is wrong.

Not sure you can easily have one without the other.

That said I don't mind people supporting, it's nice in itself, and I even accept that with things as they are it "works" (would possibly have inspired new players, for instance). I only wish we could rise above it. Then again I wish even more that we could leave religious belief behind, but that's another, much bigger, debate!!!

by lydian Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:06 am

So what do we have in common with Murray more than Federer? That we were brought up on a piece of abitrarily demarcated rock that is abit nearer to Dunblane? So what...

Patriotism is tribalism...and tribalism always creates conflict. The newspaper article reflects that perfectly. An article written by a sheltered mind for a sheltered public. Even worse, it perpetuates division and breeds further sheltered thinking. Jingoism at its best...I thought we'd left that behind long ago....clearly not.

by bogbrush Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:07 am

lydian wrote:So what do we have in common with Murray more than Federer? That we were brought up on a piece of abitrarily demarcated rock that is abit nearer to Dunblane? So what...

Patriotism is tribalism...and tribalism always creates conflict. The newspaper article reflects that perfectly. An article written by a sheltered mind for a sheltered public. Even worse, it perpetuates division and breeds further sheltered thinking. Jingoism at its best...I thought we'd left that behind long ago....clearly not.

My beliefs in a nutshell.

by carrieg4 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:09 am

When it comes to the Olympics there will be a lot of sports that I don't follow shown. I will be cheering on team GB because I haven't got the time to look at the ins and outs of each sport and make a sport based decision. That may make me nationalistic but there you go.

by Josiah Maiestas Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:35 am

I have more in common personality wise with Federer than with Murray, which crosses borders. When Murray wins a match, the feeling is zero for me. He doesn't win matches for Britain anyway, he wins for himself and his family. The author of that writing is clearly a raging fanboy. Cool

by VTR Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:57 am

Carrieg - good on you cheering on GB, I will be doing the same. They are our team, we've even in the most part funded them and they are representing us as a nation.

Also agree with Josiah, tennis is an individual sport, apart from Davis Cup and more tenuosuly the Olympics they represent themselves not their nation.

by carrieg4 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 12:12 pm

VTR wrote:Carrieg - good on you cheering on GB, I will be doing the same. They are our team, we've even in the most part funded them and they are representing us as a nation.

Exactly. In all olympic sports.

VTR wrote:Also agree with Josiah, tennis is an individual sport, apart from Davis Cup and more tenuosuly the Olympics they represent themselves not their nation.

Which is why I will always defend fans right to support who they like for TENNIS reasons. It is the ABM brigade I have a big problem with.

I like that Murray is British but it is not the reason I support him.

by **laverfan** Mon 09 Jul 2012, 1:36 pm

lydian wrote:So what do we have in common with Murray more than Federer? That we were brought up on a piece of abitrarily demarcated rock that is abit nearer to Dunblane? So what...

Patriotism is tribalism...and tribalism always creates conflict. The newspaper article reflects that perfectly. An article written by a sheltered mind for a sheltered public. Even worse, it perpetuates division and breeds further sheltered thinking. Jingoism at its best...I thought we'd left that behind long ago....clearly not.

by Calder106 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 1:43 pm

lydian wrote:So what do we have in common with Murray more than Federer? That we were brought up on a piece of abitrarily demarcated rock that is abit nearer to Dunblane? So what...

Patriotism is tribalism...and tribalism always creates conflict. The newspaper article reflects that perfectly. An article written by a sheltered mind for a sheltered public. Even worse, it perpetuates division and breeds further sheltered thinking. Jingoism at its best...I thought we'd left that behind long ago....clearly not.

I agree with what you say but surely this site is a prime example of tribalism (mostly without patriotism). There are Murray supporters, Federer supporters, Nadal supporters and Djokovic supporters and at times it can all get pretty tribal.

I would never try to tell people who they should and shouldn't support. I'll admit that being Scottish I will normally back any Scottish sportsperson. However where it's a person or team representing GB I'll support them. That doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the skills of players or teams from other countries. Tribalism as with Patriotism is not in itself bad. It only gets that way when it becomes extreme.

by lydian Mon 09 Jul 2012, 3:06 pm

Calder, I agree...but we're talking about the way patriotism links to tribality...not the other way.

The human condition is to be tribal. We gather in flocks as we're "social animals"...we seek safety in numbers and naturally mistrust others from other flocks...its a primordial self defence mechanism. Mistrust that which we dont know.

Flocks can be driven by patriotism or similarity of preferences. Sometimes these 2 things can be linked. But patriotic jingoism is more insidious than people following different football teams...it pitches whole countries against each other. At least with preference you have made a choice based on what you like...and argue why your choice is better...but to base then argue the choice based on simply being born in the same area seems a tad silly and short-sighted to me. But alas...thats the way of the world...people dont think enough for themselves by and large. Modern media does the thinking for them - and they have become programmed to lap it up.

by reckoner Mon 09 Jul 2012, 3:15 pm

Nationalism in sport is deplorable and repellent.

It is marginally more excusable in small countries that are otherwise unexceptional.

Sadly as the UK's sphere of influence continues to diminish, this jingoistic nonsense is what we become reduced to.

by Josiah Maiestas Mon 09 Jul 2012, 3:25 pm

Federers first slam was beating Philippoussis, Nadal was beating Puerta and Djokovic was beating Tsonga..

Murray has always been up against a player who has won a slam and I think the reason he cried yesterday was that clearly Federer doesn't play as good as he used to yet still Murray couldn't find the solutions.

by Calder106 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 3:26 pm

So are we being deporable and repellent if we support someone from our own country even if we know there is a better player from another country ? As I tried to say it is only when people take extreme stances that it becomes that way.

by reckoner Mon 09 Jul 2012, 3:32 pm

Calder106 wrote:So are we being deporable and repellent if we support someone from our own country even if we know there is a better player from another country ? As I tried to say it is only when people take extreme stances that it becomes that way.

I differentiate between individual support and nationalism. The public as a whole gets whpped into a frenzy that the whole thing gets tacky and possibly worse.

by hawkeye Mon 09 Jul 2012, 3:36 pm

Well personally I don't benefit from either winning so neither should have my support by rights. I can cheer for who I like or not as the case may be. If you are going to be completely rational about it why should any of us care who wins?

by Calder106 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 3:51 pm

hawkeye wrote:Well personally I don't benefit from either winning so neither should have my support by rights. I can cheer for who I like or not as the case may be. If you are going to be completely rational about it why should any of us care who wins?

Totally agree Hawkeye. No one should be told where their personal support for players/teams should lie or be decried for it. As long as it is done in the right way with respect for people who support others its what sport is all about. As you say why should we care but I suppose that takes us back to Lydian and tribalism. So well played to Roger you deserved it. I'll stay on the Andy Murray rollercoaster with the hope he will reach the top (a GS) sometime.

by Danny_1982 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 4:18 pm

I have a mate who was supporting Federer yesterday, despite never paying any attention to tennis in his life. He admitted his desire was not to see Federer win, but he wanted to see Murray lose.

His reason for this was because Murray wore a Paraguay shirt on the day England played Paraguay at the world cup. Now, we Murray fans know that this event never happened.... But this mate of mine is a bit anti Scotland anyway.

I think those are the people that the article is aiming at. And I think that's fair enough. Those people who supported Federer because they've always supported him, fair enough. Those people shouldn't be offended by the article as I don't believe they were the target of the article.

I like Murray because of his game, his desire AND because he is a fellow Brit. I don't think wanting another Brit to do well is bad, and I don't think I should be criticised for this. Those that don't support someone of the same nationality are well within their rights, and I respect that. I hope people respect the fact that my perspective is different.

Tribalism does lead to wars and conflict, but supporting a home player should not - in my opinion - be compared to such things.

by carrieg4 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 4:20 pm

Danny_1982 wrote:I have a mate who was supporting Federer yesterday, despite never paying any attention to tennis in his life. He admitted his desire was not to see Federer win, but he wanted to see Murray lose.

His reason for this was because Murray wore a Paraguay shirt on the day England played Paraguay at the world cup. Now, we Murray fans know that this event never happened.... But this mate of mine is a bit anti Scotland anyway.

I think those are the people that the article is aiming at. And I think that's fair enough. Those people who supported Federer because they've always supported him, fair enough. Those people shouldn't be offended by the article as I don't believe they were the target of the article.

I like Murray because of his game, his desire AND because he is a fellow Brit. I don't think wanting another Brit to do well is bad, and I don't think I should be criticised for this. Those that don't support someone of the same nationality are well within their rights, and I respect that. I hope people respect the fact that my perspective is different.

Tribalism does lead to wars and conflict, but supporting a home player should not - in my opinion - be compared to such things.

by hawkeye Mon 09 Jul 2012, 4:22 pm

Danny_1982 wrote:

Tribalism does lead to wars and conflict, but supporting a home player should not - in my opinion - be compared to such things.

You try telling that to CaladonianCraig...

by lydian Mon 09 Jul 2012, 4:23 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Federers first slam was beating Philippoussis, Nadal was beating Puerta and Djokovic was beating Tsonga..

Murray has always been up against a player who has won a slam and I think the reason he cried yesterday was that clearly Federer doesn't play as good as he used to yet still Murray couldn't find the solutions.

Sounds like someone was listening to the Radio 5Live phone-in this morning Wink

by VTR Mon 09 Jul 2012, 4:36 pm

Great post Danny. Its a good time to be a sport loving Brit, just a few reasons:

We've got our best ever Tennis player reaching major finals (yep, better than Fred P etc, this is the Open era and a truly global sport)

Realistic chance of a first ever Tour de France winner (even longer wait than for a Wimbledon winner - 109 years - we've never had one!)

Top of the rankings in two of the three forms of cricket

Home Olympics in a couple of weeks

by Josiah Maiestas Mon 09 Jul 2012, 5:27 pm

lydian wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:Federers first slam was beating Philippoussis, Nadal was beating Puerta and Djokovic was beating Tsonga..

Murray has always been up against a player who has won a slam and I think the reason he cried yesterday was that clearly Federer doesn't play as good as he used to yet still Murray couldn't find the solutions.
Sounds like someone was listening to the Radio 5Live phone-in this morning

I rarely listen to phone in programmes. Erm

by Guest Mon 09 Jul 2012, 5:30 pm

Some people as it is sad to say want to see Murray fail. My brother was one and my neighbours others too. It was disheartening to see as him reaching the final in itself was an achievement that had eluded top players from these isles for so long. You wouldn't be human if as a Brit you were not moved ever so slightly by Murray coming though and seeing the emotion he displayed in his semi final triumph was just once in a lifetime thing. For me it took a day to sink in. When you witness sporting history like that it is often hard to find the words to really sum up the occasion and just what it meant and what it can inspire.

It is heartbreak of the worst kind. I am sure there are many posters on here that wouldn't wish 4 Slam final defeats on their least favourite player.

When you see young players come through from all over the world, players like Federer/Nadal/Djokovic will inspire a generation of players and supporting them ahead of a homegrown player is not a crime. Look at teamsports in this country which are littered with players abroad. Should we support teams that are not bringing in homegrown talent?

by Danny_1982 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 5:33 pm

VTR wrote:Great post Danny. Its a good time to be a sport loving Brit, just a few reasons:

We've got our best ever Tennis player reaching major finals (yep, better than Fred P etc, this is the Open era and a truly global sport)

Realistic chance of a first ever Tour de France winner (even longer wait than for a Wimbledon winner - 109 years - we've never had one!)

Top of the rankings in two of the three forms of cricket

Home Olympics in a couple of weeks

VTR -

I have the same approach in all sports. In F1 I follow Hamilton, Jenson and Di Resta.

In the olympics I will be supporting anyone with a GBR next to their name.

I respect other cultures and nationalities greatly, but I am also proud to be British and make no apology for that.

Although Andy couldn't sustain his level after the roof came on, he did his country proud yesterday with his performance and conduct at the end of the match. And I believe he will get his moment, and there will be few people more pleased than me when he does.

by carrieg4 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 5:40 pm

I think the essence is that there is nothing wrong with wanting Federer to win, but there is something very sad about wanting Murray to lose. A subtle, but I think important, distinction.

by reckoner Mon 09 Jul 2012, 5:43 pm

carrieg4 wrote:I think the essence is that there is nothing wrong with wanting Federer to win, but there is something very sad about wanting Murray to lose. A subtle, but I think important, distinction.

Good example of how nationalism can be abhorrent in sport.

by carrieg4 Mon 09 Jul 2012, 5:46 pm

reckoner wrote:
carrieg4 wrote:I think the essence is that there is nothing wrong with wanting Federer to win, but there is something very sad about wanting Murray to lose. A subtle, but I think important, distinction.

Good example of how nationalism can be abhorrent in sport.

Politics and sport definitely don't mix.

by mystiroakey Mon 09 Jul 2012, 7:44 pm

so wait a minute- is murray not british then because he doesnt support england football team!!

so that means murray isnt british by that token- so how is it british to support him.

Look i support him because he is british- And i dont get others for not(who are british)- BUt they are still british!!!!

by Thomond Mon 09 Jul 2012, 7:52 pm

Were I British I would support him, thankfully I'm not Wink

but as a long time Federer fan, I did find myself impressed by Murray yesterday and I like the guy a lot more. I don't really see why you wouldn't support him if you're British, he is a fellow countryman but each to their own I suppose.

by YvonneT Tue 10 Jul 2012, 1:08 pm

I do support Murray, which stems from being from the same country as me, but but exclusively that.
It doesn't have to be jingoistic to support someone just because they are from the same country - you many just find it amazing that someone from your country can get near the top in such as competitive field and want to give them your support in that.
I do feel sorry for Murray in all this - the hype in the media is not at all of his creating but it causes people to dislike/hate him as such as the opposite.
As for David Cameron and Alex Salmond going to the final on Sunday, I really wish they hadn't. It was just another way for him to be claimed as a Scottish/British hero, creating more controversy when he just wanted to be getting on with his job.

by carrieg4 Tue 10 Jul 2012, 1:18 pm

YvonneT wrote:I do support Murray, which stems from being from the same country as me, but but exclusively that.
It doesn't have to be jingoistic to support someone just because they are from the same country - you many just find it amazing that someone from your country can get near the top in such as competitive field and want to give them your support in that.
I do feel sorry for Murray in all this - the hype in the media is not at all of his creating but it causes people to dislike/hate him as such as the opposite.
As for David Cameron and Alex Salmond going to the final on Sunday, I really wish they hadn't. It was just another way for him to be claimed as a Scottish/British hero, creating more controversy when he just wanted to be getting on with his job.

Exactly

by CaledonianCraig Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:06 pm

hawkeye wrote:
Danny_1982 wrote:

Tribalism does lead to wars and conflict, but supporting a home player should not - in my opinion - be compared to such things.

You try telling that to CaladonianCraig...

Eh? Since when have I taken that stance and who rattled your cage? My stance is that if people that cheer on Roger who are genuine fans of him then I have no problem with that whatsoever. However, those cheering on Fed at an attempt just to wind up others such as holding spiteful anti-Murray sentiment is really pretty pathetic really.

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:08 pm

Is there a Scotsman you don't like at all Craig?

by Guest Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:23 pm

reckoner wrote:Did anyone see this failure of an article in the Torygraph?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon/9385370/Wimbledon-2012-if-you-didnt-support-the-Brit-you-arent-British.html#

The Daily Telegraph is owned by the Barclays brothers who are billionaires that avoid paying British taxes:

"The entrepreneurial siblings may hide themselves away in the Quinlan Terry designed, battlement surrounded, three feet deep walls of the Brecqhou mansion, but they give their address as 7 Avenue de Grande Bretagne, 98000 Monaco.

Unsurprisingly, both Sir David and Sir Frederick are steadfast tax exiles. Monaco, the principality, city state and sovereignty, has been a popular tax haven since its constitution was initially formed and adopted in 1911. Noteworthy Monaco domiciles include Shirley Bassey, Jenson Button, Sir Roger Moore and Sir Mick Jagger. Non-residents are coming under increasing pressure from HMRC to justify their avoidance of taxes though."
See section 7 of this article:
http://www.businesswings.co.uk/articles/Who-are-the-Barclay-Brothers?singlePageView=true

by CaledonianCraig Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:35 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Is there a Scotsman you don't like at all Craig?

Of course there are. Not keen on Steven Maguire, a number of primadonna Scottish footballers (too many to mention ) and was never too over dnamoured with Graeme Souness either. Your point?

by reckoner Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:40 pm

What about Malcolm Rifkind, he's a bad egg.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:32 pm

reckoner wrote:What about Malcolm Rifkind, he's a bad egg.

Yes there are numerous bad eggs from all nations so I don't see the point. I explained my stance on Andy Murray and why he has my backing a few weeks ago.

by reckoner Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:42 pm

Hey CC I have no qualms about your support for the Murray!

by bogbrush Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:44 pm

Mainly I like Murray for his sense of humour and his usual position of not caring much what others think.

I'm not usually over-enamoured of his style of tennis, I think he was more creative years ago. He was a great deal better in the final though, he had a positive go at the job.

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