Thompson vs Redgrave

I was reading an article in the Mail this morning (yes, I do feel dirty), in which Steve Redgrave was quoted as apparently saying that he doesn't think Daley Thompson is one of the top 5 Olympians Britain has produced. Apparently, his top 5 are Seb Coe, Kelly Holmes, Ben Ainslie, himself and Matt Pinsent. I was shocked by this, as I believe Thompson to be Britain's greatest Olympian. Apparently, Redgrave's reasoning is that athletes compete in the decathlon because they are all-rounders, rather than being great in any single event. I interpret that as saying that they essentially aren't good enough to make it in a 'proper' event, and therefore have to do the decathlon instead. Perhaps there's some small grain of truth to that, but I'm not sure that detracts from the difficulty of the event. To my mind, decathletes can legitimately claim to be the greatest athletes in the world. Further, I would argue that a stronger criticism can be made against rowers, since they compete as part of a team: They do not prove that, as individuals, they are the greatest in the world.

Where do other people stand on this? Firstly, who is the greater Olympian out of Redgrave or Thompson? And is Thompson one of Britain's top 5 Olympians?

Tricky one. I certainly wouldnt have Thompson as my greatest Olympian, Id probably have to give that one to Seb. The Decathalon is a bit of a niche event....but then again so is rowing, not a lot of people ever set out to become rowers or even ever row a boat compared with the fact that everyone runs at some point at school and people with talent are generally spotted. That said what Redgrave has done over 5 games is pretty astonishing.
His top 5 isnt far off, maybe it should just be a top 7 including Hoy as well and Thompson. I think you can make a case for all of them deserving equal recognition.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote: Apparently, Redgrave's reasoning is that athletes compete in the decathlon because they are all-rounders, rather than being great in any single event. I interpret that as saying that they essentially aren't good enough to make it in a 'proper' event, and therefore have to do the decathlon instead.

I don't accept this reasoning. Nobody goes into multi-events because they're not good enough at one single event. They go into it because they're so good at a few.

With specialisation, Daley could possibly have been world class in a number of events. He was much too muscular for events like 400 and PV but he still managed 46.8 and 5.10. Chances are he could have improved those significantly. He was also a 8 metre long jumper.

Personally, I would go with Daley over Redgrave. But it's pretty close and I don't begrudge it either way. I certainly wouldn't have Daley outside the top 5 though, but clearly in a list like this, different people give different factors more weight.

Some good points there DJ. Do not agree with Redgrave here.

I would regard Daley quite highly in any list of greatest Olympians. Don't need to add anything to DJ's summary. But would say, similarly, wouldn't disregard multi-eventers from such a list on the basis of the idea that multi-eventers weren't good enough at any one particular sport [ a bit like calling them 'Jack of trades, Masters of none' etc - don't agree with this ].

Another great example of how good multi-eventers are and can be; looking to Jess Ennis - she is the joint British Record Holder for the High Jump [ 1.95 ]; she runs 12.7's for the 110m hurdles [ and would go faster if she focused on the event ]; she can 22.8's for the 200m [ and would go faster if she trained specifically for it ]; 6.50+ long jumper [ and with her flat speed, should really go further ]; 2:07 for the 800m. Getting near to 50m for the javelin. And OK shot. Jess could compete for Britain at a number of individual events without any additional training outside fo what she's currently been doing. That's how good she is! She just needs to win in London...and we can include her on the list

Back to Daley - worth thinking about what he as a person brought to the event too; bit like Bolt does today perhaps...

It would be ridiculous to claim that DT is not in the top 5. He was without doubt the greatest athlete in the world for a number of years. With the greatest of respect to the others his training regimen was unbelievable. Imagine having to be outstanding in 10 diverse events and the work that would involve!

The greater Olympian? That's a tricky one. For sheer longevity it would have to be SR, 5 gold medals is an awesome achievement. For bravado and brilliance it would have to be DT.

However, (there's always an however) DT is a pretty unpleasant guy. I ran against him a couple of times and a more arrogant, self-regarding man you couldn't wish to meet. Ask yourself why he isn't a regular TV pundit. Maybe this shouldn't matter but for me it would have to be SR

Didn't Steve Ovett once refer to the Decathlon as "9 Mickey Mouse events and a 1500m"?

I don't agree with him - just thought it was highly amusing at the time. Daley is pretty unique - defending an Olympic title over a 10 event discipline is quite the feat. I also rate Kelly Holmes highly as the middle distance double is so very rare at any games.

I would say Seb Coe, Kelly Holmes, Ben Ainslie, himself (Redgarve) and Matt Pinsent are a reasonabe call but not really the top 5.

I would drop Seb Coe from the top 5. He was a truly great athete (800M WR as an example) but did underperform in the 800M in the Olympics. Yes a silver but got caught out tactically and off the pace. Great to come back and win 1500 but you cannot over look that 800 disappointment.

With Matt Pinsett again a great rower but as alluded to above part of a team rather than an individual, this is made up by Redgrave due to the amazing longevity over 5 olympics.

I would agree with Kelly Holmes, Daley Thompson, Steve Redgrave and Ben Ainslie. All peaked and fulfilled their potential at the right time or stayed there with longevity over several olympics.

My question to self is who else for the top 5, or do Seb or Matt need elevating. If so probably Seb Coe.

You serious , skimpton ?

Coe didn't just win 800 Silver and 1500 Gold : he did it twice

Not many runners have retained the Olympic 1500 title (even without the 800 m medals)

He'd be on most people's lists I reckon.

Yes I am serious and after further thought I would have him as my number 5. Guess I just cannot get over the 800 disappointments. Judging by his reaction after his first olympic 800M silver he was very disappointed with himself too.

I read this and thought to myself "how interesting!". Interesting because I feel neither deserve the honour. Redgrave was a team player and despite his high number of golds he never had to stand alone. Secondly, rowing is pants! And the only reason it's become a National Sport loved by the BBC is because a few Oxbridge toffs are pretty good at it!

Thompson on the other hand is dirty. A formidable competitor on the track but a creep off it. All the stuff you can add about his private life and the umpteen illegitimate children he has leaves him a poor role model and therefore unsuitable for the honour. Besides he was also a jack of all trades, not good enough as a sprinter/jumper but able to chuck a few things far so he decided on the decathlon.

I guess it would have to be Coe.

"And the only reason it's become a National Sport loved by the BBC is because a few Oxbridge toffs are pretty good at it!"

Interesting you should bring this rubbish up in a thread about Redgrave given that he didn't even go to university, and actually never even took O-levels.

"Besides he was also a jack of all trades, not good enough as a sprinter/jumper but able to chuck a few things far so he decided on the decathlon."

That's already been discussed earlier. Absolute rubbish.

alfie wrote:Not many runners have retained the Olympic 1500 title.

Coe is actually the only man to have done so.

Kelly Holmes hands down.

Plus she serve her country - EX Army.

what better person.

Holmes is the one Id struggle to have top 5, she had a great week as opposed to a brilliant career. Fantastic athlete but nowhere near the class of the likes of Coe in the pantheons of the greats.

Don't really agree with Redgrave's (apparent) theory that a decathlete should be marked down for not being 'good enough' in any one single event, and I'm surprised to see that such an idea has any support at all on here, even if it is only very small. Should we mark hurdlers down too, as they're 'not good enough' to simply run like we'd normally do?

Thompson is a shoe-in for the top five, I believe. In fact, I wouldn't object to anyone placing him number one, although of course Redgrave is a fearce competitor for that spot in his own right.

I'd certainly have Thompson way ahead of Holmes, mind you. Holmes hit one glorious peak in 2004, but Daley's peak constituted a whole era - in athletics terms - of dominance. Holmes the best for a single year, Daley the best for many years, with world records to boot. Daley can, to this day, be considered a candidate for the title of 'greatest ever' in the event in which he competed, whereas Holmes, fantastic though she was, can't be.

Its a bit rich for Redgrave to criticise Daley. Didn't Redgrave win his medals because he shared the boat with other guys? If he did it alone then fair enough. He didn't. He needed help.

As long as it is not David Beckham , I am happy. Cant believe that his name was bandied about as of the possible. Never seen such a self promoting, self-serving git in my life.

djkbrown2001 wrote:As long as it is not David Beckham , I am happy. Cant believe that his name was bandied about as of the possible. Never seen such a self promoting, self-serving git in my life.

Or altenatively he is just a guy who has done a lot to help secure the games and despite not being selected to play, chose not to sulk about it but to carry on trying to promote the games and help welcome everyone and make it a great event in his own neck of the woods.

England should be proud of Beckham. Great guy and terrific ambassador for sports in the UK. Great UN Ambassador also. An all round good guy.

The honour should go to an Olympic Champion not Beckham. I don't know who to root for but not a damn rower or any toff sports or a jack of all trades like Thompson. Someone from a sport more people can relate to and is a good role model and a gold medalist....

Tammy Grey Thompson (or whatever her name is). Betcha it will be Princess Anne

Nah it won't be her they'll keep her for a big role in the Paralympics. Mind you, you could be right, perhaps they'll want to make a statement about disabled athletes being just as worthy of such an honour I dunno.

Bradley Wiggins anybody?

He's competing the next morning, won't even be at the ceremony.

Could he lead Mark Cavendish out then?

Could he lead Mark Cavendish out then?

why twice? I don't know

Diggers wrote:

djkbrown2001 wrote:As long as it is not David Beckham , I am happy. Cant believe that his name was bandied about as of the possible. Never seen such a self promoting, self-serving git in my life.

Or altenatively he is just a guy who has done a lot to help secure the games and despite not being selected to play, chose not to sulk about it but to carry on trying to promote the games and help welcome everyone and make it a great event in his own neck of the woods.

This always makes me laugh.

What exactly is the 'lot' that he's done to secure the games? Did he perform some outstanding feats of heroism in front of the committee and wow them with his valour? Maybe he juggled some balls and played keepy up with them?

Or then again maybe he just agreed to have his face plastered on every billboard, attended a few dinners and ultimately gained financially through public exposure and endorsements. In other words, just another self-serving day in the Beckham household.


Just to add, I can't believe the amount of nauseating coverage Beckham received for his exclusion from the GB team! And it was always the same stock line: 'err.. I fink he should be in the team because of all 'e did to secure the games'. Hello, is this some kind of charity? Mr goody-two-shoes is such a good all round bloke (despite cheating on his Mrs) that he should automatically command a place in the team. Why stop there? Why not just hand him a medal while we're at it too! The guy wasn't good enough to represent the team. In fact he's been past his sell by date for a number of years. He should have the good grace to quietly allow others to take the limelight, instead of piping up every few months about his desire to represent team GB/England, and thus starting up the circus all over again and adding undue pressure to the coaching staff. Never has a guy been more overly elevated for superfluous reasons than him.



emancipator

No surprises that the welsh don't like sports widely dominated by the english upper class and for it being a team effort, well a rowing 4 is only as good as it's weakest member so silly little comments like Redgrave needing his team is ludicrous but he is a white englishmen so again no surprise Az doesn't like him.

Greatest British Olympian has to be someone who took gold at more than games.

Further, it would have to be in an event that was engaged in the widest possible number of nations and people.

Redgrave winning gold over 5 consecutive Olympics is awesome. The problem is that rowing doesn't have wide enough particpation.

Daley Thompson; he competed when there were other highly regarded and highly capable athletes around. He was a tough competitor and held the world record. His marks are still incredible. But the decathlon isn't as widely contested as some other track and field events [ in terms of the breadth of nations involved - though most certainly intensely competitve ].

It's not easy.

My choice; Seb Coe. The middle distances are hotly contested. Even then when Seb was competing [ as the times show ]. His times were incredible. Held world records. Between 1980 Moscow Olympics, and 1984 Los Angeles Olympics, 2 Olympic titles over the 1500 - and 2 Olympic 800m silvers [ he took 1984 Olympic 1500m title in 3:32.53 ]. Remember it all really well! I'd got to pick him because running is something that people from all nations can do [ without resources and opportunities being an issue to the degree they may be in other sports and events ].

Rowing must have a fairly wide participation otherwise it wouldn't be in the olympics to start with, too easy to dismiss it but it takes an other wordly level of dedication than most sports.

Well that was a pointless argument! The torch lighting was done superbly. Kudos to all involved.

emancipator wrote:

Diggers wrote:

djkbrown2001 wrote:As long as it is not David Beckham , I am happy. Cant believe that his name was bandied about as of the possible. Never seen such a self promoting, self-serving git in my life.

Or altenatively he is just a guy who has done a lot to help secure the games and despite not being selected to play, chose not to sulk about it but to carry on trying to promote the games and help welcome everyone and make it a great event in his own neck of the woods.

This always makes me laugh.

What exactly is the 'lot' that he's done to secure the games? Did he perform some outstanding feats of heroism in front of the committee and wow them with his valour? Maybe he juggled some balls and played keepy up with them?

Or then again maybe he just agreed to have his face plastered on every billboard, attended a few dinners and ultimately gained financially through public exposure and endorsements. In other words, just another self-serving day in the Beckham household.


Just to add, I can't believe the amount of nauseating coverage Beckham received for his exclusion from the GB team! And it was always the same stock line: 'err.. I fink he should be in the team because of all 'e did to secure the games'. Hello, is this some kind of charity? Mr goody-two-shoes is such a good all round bloke (despite cheating on his Mrs) that he should automatically command a place in the team. Why stop there? Why not just hand him a medal while we're at it too! The guy wasn't good enough to represent the team. In fact he's been past his sell by date for a number of years. He should have the good grace to quietly allow others to take the limelight, instead of piping up every few months about his desire to represent team GB/England, and thus starting up the circus all over again and adding undue pressure to the coaching staff. Never has a guy been more overly elevated for superfluous reasons than him.



emancipator

What did he do ? Why dont you ask Seb Coe who is more than happy to give credit where he feels credit is due as are any of the other people responsible for winning the bid who also ackonledge Beckams role. Or of ocurse you could just stick to your own opinion where you clearly have no idea how important his role was, nor do I, but you'd have to be a complete plank to not realise that he was a big help.