Can Football Break It's Gay Taboo..?

Can English football break it's gay taboo..? The game has worked hard to tackle problems in the game such as racism, but has been surprisingly reticent in challenging the problem of homophobia.

From the time when black players began to emerge in the English game in the 1970s, they were subjected to torrents of vile abuse, monkey grunts, having bananas thrown at them from the crowd and so on. Having read up on the phenomenon, I can't begin to imagine how horrific this must have been for the players concerned. Fast forward to today though, and great advances have been made in England, if not Eastern Europe. Half of the England team is made up of black players who are accepted by the fans and respected for their talents and commitment to the team.

Programmes such as the FIFA backed "Racism: Kick It Out" campaign have been tremendously effective but also, it was the talents of the players that eventually won over the fans.

Would fans cheer an openly gay player who scored the winning goal in the cup final..? I think they would, but the opposition fans would still "get after him". How can we challenge that..?

Well, firstly, there needs to be an openly gay player to associate the feat with. The best known out gay man in football was Justin Fashanu of Norwich City back in the late 1980s. He was hounded and taunted, not just by supporters, but also by his own team mates until, disillusioned and defeated, he eventually quit the game. Even his own brother, John, who played for Wimbledon turned his back on him.

Justin Fashanu was traumatised by his experience in football and sunk into depression after leaving the game. He hanged himself and to this day, Ipswich Town fans still sing the most awful chant whenever they play against their local rivals, Norwich, which goes:

"He's gay, he's dead, he's hanging in the shed, Fashanu... Fashanu...

It beggars belief that people can chant such a thing, doesn't it.?

John Fashanu wrote in his biography about the guilt he felt over the death of his brother, and how the remorse is with him every day, that he spurned his older sibling when he needed him most.

We do have some evidence that there are closeted gay players currently plying their trade at the top level of British football. The publicist Max Clifford has claimed he advised two Premier League stars to keep their sexuality a secret. These individuals should be able to be open about their sexuality just as they would in any civilised society, however it is hard to argue with Clifford when he claims that football is “In the dark ages” and “Is steeped in homophobia”. Whatever you think of Max Clifford, he has made a career of judging how the general public will react when confronted with a front page splash, and then spinning that story to the benefit of whoever is signing his cheque that week. He has, in effect, judged the story of a gay footballer to be “unspinnable”.

There have been a few positive signs from the wider sporting world. The most obvious of these being the ex Wales rugby captain Gareth Thomas, whose announcement that he was gay has been met with an overwhelmingly positive response. His status as a national hero was already cemented, his sexuality has not diminished his fine achievements on the pitch and he has largely been supported in his decision to come out (the Independent newspaper put him joint first in its annual pink list). Tellingly, the belief that despite its macho image, the players and fans of rugby are a far more intelligent and tolerant bunch than their equivalent footballing counterparts, remains a relevant one.

Perhaps it will require a high profile, much admired player to come out but I fear that is not imminent. A "poster boy" with a lot of credibility may be able to stand up to the level of abuse that would rain down from the stands, but would he be able to live with his peers in the dressing room or on the training ground..? The Fashanu tragedy may have played out in the early 90s, but have attitudes amongst players really changed since then..?

If the very public taunting of Graeme le Saux, by Liverpool player Robbie Fowler, in front of millions of fans on a live televised match in 2000 is anything to go by, then no. And le Saux isn't even gay..!! Innuendo, and the fact that le Saux is an educated man who reads broadsheet newspapers and enjoys the fine arts was enough to "mark" him in the minds of many in the game. This is ignorance on an almost primitive level, but it is sadly all too typical of football players and supporters.

The "Secret Footballer" column in the Guardian, and 4-4-2 magazine have both laid bare the ruthlessness that can exist in Premiership changing rooms, especially with regards to sex. It is not an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding.

The Football Association wanted to produce an anti-homophobia video about 18 months ago, but couldn't find anybody from the footballing world willing to front it. The fear of retribution and ostracism was too great. Until football can find somebody whose talent is more noteworthy than their sexuality, somebody whose value to the team is so great that it can overcome the prejudice of their team mates, it will not be possible to begin to chip away at the monolith of homophobia in the game.

Incidentally, if there is any player out there, who is homosexual and wishes to represent his country, he'd better stay in the closet, at least until after 2022. FIFA, in their wisdom, have elected to hold their showpiece tournament, the FIFA World Cup 2022 in Qatar, a country where homosexuality is illegal.

Nice one, FIFA.

This subject is obviously a very complex one with no easy answers or imminent solution, but it is one that for the good of the game needs to be debated.


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I would think it would be a very big step for a premiership or even any top footballer to come out. I would applaud them for it and I would think it would certainly be a massive step for the sport, racism is still an issue n some areas but it's comething that has largely been overcome. Homophobia hasn't however and I saw next to know backlash when Gareth Thomas did it. I think it would be a massive step for the sport. I unfortunately don't see it happening for a while though.

I'm pretty sure there are gay footballers and their teammates know it. However why should they have to announce their personal details to the entire world?

They don't have to but I think it would help some people accept gays especially in countries where they are villified. I think it would help the game and the gay community but I can understand why some one wouldn't want to do it.

Personally I wouldn't want to do it just for the sake of keeping my private life private. Everybody gets abuse from keyboard warriors anyway

An all gay rugby side (founded in 2004) has just won the Bingham Cup... for the second time... beating the San Francisco Fog in the A Division and the Dallas Diablos in the B Division.

http://sydneyconvicts.org/
http://outsports.com/jocktalkblog/2012/06/04/sydney-convicts-win-bingham-cup-rugby-championship/

Good luck to them I say. Onwards and upwards!

Maybe a tall order for the Prem to go that far so soon but I think it's a great achievement for the Convict lads.

Really good article I enjoyed reading that

Football and its fans are the lowest of the low, disgusting in their attitudes in all ways of life, and this is coming from a football lover. But the way the game has gone with the greed, cheating and no conscience of it all, has made me not care for much of it. Although I do like to watch it on tv and go to watch Swindon when I can.

Graeme Swann's Cat wrote:Personally I wouldn't want to do it just for the sake of keeping my private life private. Everybody gets abuse from keyboard warriors anyway

Very true, Swanny but it goes a little deeper than that.

Homophobic abuse is a bit more insidious than racism or other forms of abuse. It's intent is to drive an individual into living a restricted life which disables him or her from being open about their relationships.

For instance, when fans get on a black players back, then they are not changing anything about that player because no matter what they say, they can't stop him being black. When you're a gay man or a lesbian sportsperson it's different. The abuse can make you hide who you are. Make you live a lie. Many players and administrators have even gone to the extent of an opposite sex marriage, just for appearances sake. The obvious example being that of Elton John when he was the Chairman of Watford in the 1980's. The marriage was a complete sham not only for him, but also for his wife. More than one person is affected by this thing.

What Elton John's fears did to him.... and what fear engendered by homophobia does in general.... is to attempt to force a person to be something that they are not. A black man cannot be made to pretend he is white, but a gay man can be made to pretend he is straight.

Gay footballers cannot attend social functions with their partners. They cannot talk about them. They cannot be open about who they are. It is not a matter of wanting to flaunt their sexuality, it's about the simple human dignity of being able to say "This is who I am".

Presuming you are married, Swanny, how would you feel if you were never able to mention your wife in conversation, or take her out anywhere for fear of being seen with her..? How would you feel if she were the target of hate mail or threats of violence on a daily basis.? What would such a life do to you and your marriage..? These are the things that homosexual footballers have very real and genuine fears about and it's WRONG.

It would be wonderful to live in a Britain where this wasn't an issue in sport. Trust me, gay men and lesbians want nothing more than to be treated just the same as anybody else. Nobody is asking for any special treatment. If that ever becomes the case, then there would be no need for topics such as this to be raised and we wouldn't be talking about it. But that isn't the case at this time and it is a blight on British football that need to be addressed.

What I would like to see is an FA driven campaign which puts the question directly to the clubs. Do you condemn homophobia in football..? What are you going to do about it..? Press clubs into issuing a diversity policy for their club and name and shame those clubs who don't participate.

For those clubs who agree to create a Diversity Policy, it should include elements such as a positive attitude towards gay players. The discouragement of homophobic chanting in grounds (backed up with the threat of ticket and season ticket bans for those who transgress). Anti-homophobic messages posted in match programmes and inside stadia as with the anti-racist campaign. Clubs should be encouraged to co-operate with the police in the investigation of hate crime when it becomes attached to their club.

The manager of the England women's team, Hope Powell is an out lesbian and she is completely accepted in the women's footballing community. Isn't it time the men followed suit..?


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Honestly, I'd be very surprised if they've hidden it from teammates. I wouldn't have any reservations about playing with anybody who was that way inclined.

I do get what you mean to say, but honestly, it wouldn't be worth the hassle for me, esp while I was playing. I'd rather just stay private.

I'd be getting abuse from opposing fans in any case, everybody seems to think they're invincible behind a screen and I'd have to deal with increased media spotlight.

By coming out, you're not only opening yourself to abuse but even supporters of gay footballers make it a problem for them to come out as they will become the poster boy of homosexuality in football. Most footballers would rather be known for their football than being a gay footballer.

Crimey wrote:By coming out, you're not only opening yourself to abuse but even supporters of gay footballers make it a problem for them to come out as they will become the poster boy of homosexuality in football. Most footballers would rather be known for their football than being a gay footballer.

While that may be fine for some, im sure others want to come out but are afraid of the abuse that they will get on the Terraces...............this is more of an issue for Football than most other sports i believe................

I'm not sure abuse from the terraces is such a factor, everybody gets abused by opposing fans anyway.

Graeme Swann's Cat wrote:I'm not sure abuse from the terraces is such a factor, everybody gets abused by opposing fans anyway.

But serious vile abuse is unfortunately a problem Football suffers from more that other sports......................but of course that's not the only thing...........im sure the reaction of team mates is just as much of an issue..................

You underestimate the bond between teammates. It honestly wouldnt be a major issue for the majority of people.

GSC,

I completely agree.............but it takes a lot for someone to come out to their immediate family, so you can see why many just keep quiet

If someone came out to their teammates theyd be fine with it (and I suspect many have)

Graeme Swann's Cat wrote:If someone came out to their teammates theyd be fine with it (and I suspect many have)

Surprised Rio hasn't "outed" someone via one of his tweets so!!
Although, coming out to Fergie might be tricky!

Watch the Beckham star stories

Graeme Swann's Cat wrote:If someone came out to their teammates theyd be fine with it (and I suspect many have)

I'm pretty sure it was in the Four Four Two footballer column, who was anonymous, who said that he has known homosexual footballers who are open to everybody within the team.

Anyone have any idea who the footballer in FFT is? I was thinking it might be Trevor Sinclair

A footballer only has to show a modicum of intelligence for him to be subjected to homophobic abuse. Graham Le Saux read the Guardian, went to art galleries and didn't go out on the pull and razz with the lads. He was called gay.

I dont think society will accept homo sexuals fully in my lifetime. Football is a 'man's game'. Players themselves will hardly want to share a shower with a gay player.

It may have been as he came to the end of his playing career but Gareth Thomas played rugby as an openly gay man and I don't think the players had a problem with it and he was supported by the fans.


Forgot to add that one of the greatest hurlers in Cork history Donal Óg Cusack is also openly gay, he came out before Thomas I think. There are some sportstars out there who are and I have never heard a Cork fan have a cut off Ogie and not many others have either. Hurling is a mans sport too and the supporters are by and large the same with little backlash. Mightn't be the case in rugby.

Thomond wrote:It may have been as he came to the end of his playing career but Gareth Thomas played rugby as an openly gay man and I don't think the players had a problem with it and he was supported by the fans.


Forgot to add that one of the greatest hurlers in Cork history Donal Óg Cusack is also openly gay, he came out before Thomas I think. There are some sportstars out there who are and I have never heard a Cork fan have a cut off Ogie and not many others have either. Hurling is a mans sport too and the supporters are by and large the same with little backlash. Mightn't be the case in rugby.

Rugby have more civilised supporters.

There are some interesting comments posted on this thread, gentlemen. and it's obvious that you give thought to the issue.

However, I refer you back to a couple of things I said in my OP.


In response to Swanny's comment: If someone came out to their teammates theyd be fine with it (and I suspect many have)


I somewhat disagree.

I previously pointed out that John Fashanu had openly disassociated himself from his own brother, a precedent which still reverberates around football. Not only this, but I draw attention back to when the FA mooted the idea around the clubs of starting a pro-gay campaign, they could find nobody willing to front it. Nobody was even willing to discuss it. That does not suggest any level of openness. There is also the example of the Robbie Fowler incident which, while more than ten years ago now, is indicative of an attitude amongst players of which there is absolutely no evidence that it has gone away.

I doubt very much that any gay players inside the game have come out to anybody in the dressing room. To do so would be footballing suicide.

Team mates may suspect, but if the player concerned is talented and popular with the rest of the team, as long as a state of DADT (Don't Ask, Don't Tell) exists, then a balance, no matter how uneasy can be struck.

DADT is unacceptable. Even the US Army abandoned it..!! If that band of gung-ho headbangers think DADT is beyond the Pale, what does acceptance of it say about footballers..?


Thomond said: They don't have to (come out) but I think it would help some people accept gays especially in countries where they are villified. I think it would help the game and the gay community but I can understand why some one wouldn't want to do it.

Thom has grasped the situation here. As I said in my 2nd post, it isn't about flaunting sexuality. It's about human identity. It's about not being forced to live in the shadows, or being made to feel that what you are is something to be ashamed of. Homophobia attempts to impose a feeling of shame about being gay. I think this realisation doesn't get across to heterosexuals enough.

We shouldn't be forced to feel shame for being born this way. Being gay or lesbian is no different to being left handed or having blonde hair.... things that indicate you are in a statistical minority, but don't change the fact that you are a human being like everybody else.


Swanny makes a very valid point about wanting to keep his life private, and that is relevant. It does raise the issue of "flaunting" sexuality again, but from a slightly different perspective.

In response, I am in full agreement with him about players privacy in their life outside football, but it cannot be denied that footballers are public figures inside the game and it is the response from the fans that blurs the lines between the two.

I agree that most players can take the week-in-week-out chanting that comes from the grandstands. "Who are ya?".... "You're crap and you know you are"..... and suchlike is water off a duck's back.

But homophobia goes deeper. This is HATE. This is raw, untamed savagery and it goes beyond anything that can remotely be casually shrugged off or dismissed as "terrace banter". It was so bad for Justin Fashanu that he was forced out of the game and eventually hanged himself. We are talking about something that is so brutal it moved a man to end his own life.

Just think about that.

Players in other incidents (not homophobic related) have had bullets sent to them in the mail, have had their wives and children abused on the school run. Football fans believe that they OWN players and when they find something that makes them angry, they latch onto it and run with it without mercy.

When some fans find that a player from a rival club have a homosexual in their team, they scent blood and go for it like a pack of hyenas. Being a football fan can reduce otherwise sane, rational people to a level that William Goulding didn't envisage in his worst nightmares when he wrote Lord of the Flies.... a descent into savagery, where the norms of civilised society collapse.

When talking about football fans, then of course, the vast majority are decent, honest people in their everyday lives. They wouldn't harm a fly. But come match day, I think there are three basic categories of fan.

Cat 1. Ordinary bloke. Wouldn't harm a fly. Salt of the earth.

Cat 2. Raving bloody lunatic. Should be locked up and only be allowed to write with crayons because he can't be trusted with pens, pencils or other sharp objects.

Then there is Cat 3. The ordinary guy who is decent, honest and fair for six days of the week, but as soon as he walks through the turnstiles, he morphs into an absolute idiot.

His 90 minutes of football on a Saturday afternoon turn him from Mr Nice Guy into a demented savage. His rationale and reason completely desert him and he becomes capable of anything.

This madness may evaporate on leaving the ground after the match, but it can also fester in the bosom for days afterwards depending on the level of (what I call) "War Hormones" the game has caused his body to release into his system. While this state is dominant, there is nothing he might not do.


Whether or not it is possible to win heterosexual players over (and that is a challenge in itself), the terraces and grandstands are the most serious theatre of contention.

The game is faced with this challenge and in my opinion it is a gauntlet that must be picked up. Not to do so is a failure of civilisation, decency and common humanity. We cannot let the cowards, thugs and bullies in the game win.

The only thing necessary for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing.


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I think football was a very important vehicle for changing the attitudes of the average 'man in the street' with regard to racism, at least as directed to players of Afro-Caribbean descent - the scarcity of Asian (particularly Anglo-Asian players from Indian sub-continental backgrounds) may in part explain why attitudes have changed more slowly in that sphere (allied to greater 'cultural' differences, particularly religion).

Can it achieve the same in increased acceptance of homosexuality? I suspect not, because the attitude within the game and around the supporters appears to be 'behind the curve' compared wih public opinion.

Ultimately, I think there will be a successful, openly gay player, and that he will be accepted by the fans, but I think it will happen because of changes in wider society dragging football into the modern civilised* era rather than football helping to lead the wider community.

*Civilised in this context being the word my gay friend uses to describe his civil partnership...

I am inclined to say no.

Can football in general breakaway from the culture that has seen racism still be rife? Who can forget Robbie Fowler taunting Graeme Le Saux about his sexualty on the field?

Unfortunately football is in still in the place where things like racism and sexism exists. Andy Gray for example and his views on 'women' linesman/referees.

It is almost like a reluctance to accept such changes in the football society. Fans will with great hatred will use any form of insults to players/officials/other fans. I can't explain why it is in football. It is like an acceptance that such cultures should be allowed to use them against in an insulting manner.

I don't agree with the 'poster' boy to engage the wider field for gays in football. I wish it could be we are gay and proud and here to stay, but as much as football would accept it, I am sure in areas it would be used as a form of 'banter' while the attitude is that yes it is accepted on a universal front and I do believe that players are not bigots, they would like to use the insults in a banter context and not cause offence, but unfortunately society in general are not in a comfort zone to accept these insults in a banter manner because it would almost cause scenario's where a line would not be drawn.

It requires consideration by both fans and players equally not to use racism or sexism in a derogative manner even if the people they use it against are comfortable with it.

LK2. Tennis and now Football contributor par excellence

With the usual well thought out comments

Thanks banbro.

With regards to the very good cerebral question I doubt whether if can ever be broken for the simple reason is that there are too may decent people, i.e. the type who abhor racism and hence always support such 'anti' initiatives who quite honestly dislike / mistrust whatever you want to call it, homosexuality

As a black man myself, its been a breeze growing up in the very well educated British anti-racism environment. No such grace is given to our gay friends

Hence on the footie terraces, where you still have people thinking that racist slurs are acceptable, with the same people agreeing never outside of the ground (try and work out that contradiction ) there is no way that a gay footballer wouldn't get abused

banbrotam wrote:With regards to the very good cerebral question I doubt whether if can ever be broken for the simple reason is that there are too may decent people, i.e. the type who abhor racism and hence always support such 'anti' initiatives who quite honestly dislike / mistrust whatever you want to call it, homosexuality

As a black man myself, its been a breeze growing up in the very well educated British anti-racism environment. No such grace is given to our gay friends

Hence on the footie terraces, where you still have people thinking that racist slurs are acceptable, with the same people agreeing never outside of the ground (try and work out that contradiction ) there is no way that a gay footballer wouldn't get abused

Very good points, Banbrotam and I was interested in a key word you used in your post: Educated.

I think education is the key to all things and, as with anti-racism campaigns, it has to start somewhere. We would not have the widely tolerant, fair minded attitude towards coloured players that we have now if everybody had said "We can't change anything, so let's not try". Somebody was the first to pick up the baton and say "No, this must change". They may have been mocked and ridiculed at the time, and told they were fighting a losing battle, but they did it just the same and little by little, they and those who followed them have achieved much.

The abhorrent practice of racism still exists in football stadiums but those who do it and are caught know that they will be taken to task for their actions. Good fans inside grounds condemn them.... some even go so far as to shop them.

Because of the intensive programmes of education and encouragement of tolerance and acceptance for all, the racist fan has to watch his step.... button his lip and be aware that he is always living on the edge of prosecution. He is the one who now lives in fear. Fear of exposure as a bigot and hate-criminal.

By the same token, it is time for somebody to pick up the baton on homophobia in the game. I accept fully that could very well be as long and hard a battle as it was for black players, to achieve the dignity and respect in the game that they were entitled to as human beings, but it has to start somewhere and the way I see it, now is as good a time as any to begin.

I'd like to see this kind of image depicted by people wearing football kit.

Spoiler:

Jennifer1984 wrote:

banbrotam wrote:With regards to the very good cerebral question I doubt whether if can ever be broken for the simple reason is that there are too may decent people, i.e. the type who abhor racism and hence always support such 'anti' initiatives who quite honestly dislike / mistrust whatever you want to call it, homosexuality

As a black man myself, its been a breeze growing up in the very well educated British anti-racism environment. No such grace is given to our gay friends

Hence on the footie terraces, where you still have people thinking that racist slurs are acceptable, with the same people agreeing never outside of the ground (try and work out that contradiction ) there is no way that a gay footballer wouldn't get abused

Very good points, Banbrotam and I was interested in a key word you used in your post: Educated.

I think education is the key to all things and, as with anti-racism campaigns, it has to start somewhere. We would not have the widely tolerant, fair minded attitude towards coloured players that we have now if everybody had said "We can't change anything, so let's not try". Somebody was the first to pick up the baton and say "No, this must change". They may have been mocked and ridiculed at the time, and told they were fighting a losing battle, but they did it just the same and little by little, they and those who followed them have achieved much.

The abhorrent practice of racism still exists in football stadiums but those who do it and are caught know that they will be taken to task for their actions. Good fans inside grounds condemn them.... some even go so far as to shop them.

Because of the intensive programmes of education and encouragement of tolerance and acceptance for all, the racist fan has to watch his step.... button his lip and be aware that he is always living on the edge of prosecution. He is the one who now lives in fear. Fear of exposure as a bigot and hate-criminal.

By the same token, it is time for somebody to pick up the baton on homophobia in the game. I accept fully that could very well be as long and hard a battle as it was for black players, to achieve the dignity and respect in the game that they were entitled to as human beings, but it has to start somewhere and the way I see it, now is as good a time as any to begin.

I'd like to see this kind of image depicted by people wearing football kit.

Spoiler:

The main point really is that football terraces are a breeding ground for hatred. It goes as far back as the 70's. Here we are 40 years later and the problems which from a society perspective exist in a sport. Rainbow kits, wristbands, embroided messages are not going to stop the problems that exist.

People who go to football matches and scream and hurl abuse at a player or fellow supporter or an official are not the same people who then go to work without being shackled with that frustration that only seems to exist in football. You go to cricket, tennis or even rugby matches and you will not hear the sheer hatred that exists on a football terrace.

Most of the people who post on this forum could probably not tell you why such problems exist. There is no explanation other than a deep rooted un-rest that exists in a football society and that is where fans and even players themselves vent.

legendkillarV2 wrote:
The main point really is that football terraces are a breeding ground for hatred. It goes as far back as the 70's. Here we are 40 years later and the problems which from a society perspective exist in a sport. Rainbow kits, wristbands, embroided messages are not going to stop the problems that exist.
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So your answer to this is to simply ignore it and allow it to continue to flourish..? Don't challenge anything, just allow the hate criminals to flourish..?

There is a word for that: Capitulation.

It's time football stopped capitulating and started doing something. The Gay Rights Movement has fought similar battles with intransigent opposition in the past... and won.


The armed forces ban on homosexual servicemen and women was defeated. It took many years, but we won.

Civil partnerships were challenged by the churches. The churches lost.

The churches also attempted to prevent homosexual couples winning the right to adopt and for lesbians to have IVF treatment. The churches lost again.


Homosexuals have got a habit of winning battles against intransigent opponents. What has to happen now, is for the fight against deeply ingrained hate crime in football.... the only sport that tolerates it...... to be taken up. I am confident that before long, it will.

And we'll win.


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Jennifer1984 wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:
The main point really is that football terraces are a breeding ground for hatred. It goes as far back as the 70's. Here we are 40 years later and the problems which from a society perspective exist in a sport. Rainbow kits, wristbands, embroided messages are not going to stop the problems that exist.
.

So your answer to this is to simply ignore it and allow it to continue to flourish..? Don't challenge anything, just allow the hate criminals to flourish..?

There is a word for that: Capitulation.

It's time football stopped capitulating and started doing something. The Gay Rights Movement has fought similar battles with intransigent opposition in the past... and won.


The armed forces ban on homosexual servicemen and women was defeated. It took many years, but we won.

Civil partnerships were challenged by the churches. The churches lost.

The churches also attempted to prevent homosexual couples winning the right to adopt and for lesbians to have IVF treatment. The churches lost again.


Homosexuals have got a habit of winning battles against intransigent opponents. What has to happen now, is for the fight against deeply ingrained hate crime in football.... the only sport that tolerates it...... to be taken up. I am confident that before long, it will.

And we'll win.


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Let me ask you this. How are you going to stop racist/sexist remarks called out in stadiums packed over 30,000? Put a tape recorder on everyone that enters the stadium?

A good amount of the fans who watch football are probably gay themselves but would never admit it for the very same reasons that gay footballers would more than likely not admit it publicly.

Footballers are perceived as being rich womanisers from time immemorial, If one is gay this shatters the whole ideal, something which a gay footballer could not do as it may affect him actually being able to play for a team.

One of the main reasons that homosexuality in football should be made public is that it would undoubtedly lead to Rio Ferdinand tweeting something crass and stupid thus leading to him being banned from football and, more importantly Twitter. He's like a teenager with an ill-informed or downright moronic opinion everything that he feels he has the God Given right to share.

Went to Old Trafford with my wife and six month daughter to watch the opening Olympic matches. Got seats in the Family enclosure and had to listen to some southern knuckle dragger screaming "Camorn the Araaaaabs" and "Leave 'im alone ref, 'e don't know any better e's a MOOOSLIM!" for aboout and hour before he got bored and went for a drink. Then he started mouthing off again during the GB/Senegal match and was "politely" advised to be quiet.

Something tells me this guy isn't going to be the sort of person who thinks "This guy's come out and do you know what, I fully support and applaud his decision.Well done sir." nor do I think this guy could be educated with a baseball bat. These attitudes extend far beyond football. There were kids aged 10 and under in a playground referring to each other as "Spaz". I don't dount that "gay" is another of their favourite insults

In the USA when something is to be derided, it's referred to as "gay" It implies that it's weak and undeserving of any form of respect. That term is now rife in this country. Until we accept that gay and lesbian people are to be treated as equals in ALL aspects of society, we are doomed to repeat this cycle of hatred. When the supposedly most respected Organisation the country (the church) still condemns homosexuality, you know change isn't just around the corner.

DAVE667 wrote:

Went to Old Trafford with my wife and six month daughter to watch the opening Olympic matches. Got seats in the Family enclosure and had to listen to some southern knuckle dragger screaming "Camorn the Araaaaabs" and "Leave 'im alone ref, 'e don't know any better e's a MOOOSLIM!" for aboout and hour before he got bored and went for a drink. Then he started mouthing off again during the GB/Senegal match and was "politely" advised to be quiet.

This happens at every level. I don't watch football, but my eldest boy, heavily influenced by his schooling, is a big fan. He is just shy of 10 years old and last season I took him to a match involving our local team who reside something like 15 levels below the Football League. I had to pay for us both to get in and it is a small ground where everyone stands together. Within 20 minutes of the first half kicking off, the opposition goalkeeper was called a 'wop' due to his olive skin. The opposition also had two black players in attack. A couple of guys behind us (not the person who offered up the 'wop' comment) then educated us all that the home team were in trouble as their defenders were all slow and the two 'jungle bunnies' up front would be too quick!

At that point I took my son and left, but to this day I regret not saying something either to the supporters or some sort of club official. I think I was just too stunned to react properly. It reminded me exactly why I hadn't taken him before and strengthened my resolve not to take him or any of my other kids to a football match again. When they are old enough to go themselves then I will give them my blessing, but I won't be any part of it.

Really interesting thread, this one.