Super XV Semi-Final previews.

First topic message reminder :

So the Semi-Finals of the Super XV is coming up and arguably the best 4 teams will be on show this weekend.

The Stormers will be taking on the Sharks at Newlands in Capetown and the Chiefs will take on the Crusaders at Waikato Stadium in Hamilton.

Semi-Final 1:
The Chiefs vs the Crusaders promises to be a matchup of two teams who will both go guns blazing and it promises to be a try fest, both teams have played exciting and inventive rugby during the season, the Chiefs in my view has the better backline, the crusaders the better forward pack, howver it seems the Crusaders will be without Keiran Reid.

They met for the first time this season in Christchurch in week three and it was the Chiefs who started their season strongly with a strong away win against the seven time champions.

Final Score Crusaders 19 (6) Chiefs 24 (16)
Crusaders
Tries - R. Fruean
Pen - T. Bleyendaal 4
Con - T. Bleyendaal
Chiefs
Tries - L. Messam, A. Taumalolo
Pen - A. Cruden 4
Con - A. Cruden

HIGHLIGHTS VIDEO

Their second meeting was in Hamilton and with a controversial try by Andy Ellis the crusaders turned the table.

Final Score Chiefs 21 (16) Crusaders 28 (20)
Chiefs
Tries - B. Retallick, SB. Williams
Pen - A. Cruden 3
Con - A. Cruden 1
Crusaders
Tries - K. Read, L. Romano, A. Ellis
Pen - D. Carter 2
Con - D. Carter 2
Drop - D. Carter

HIGHLIGHTS VIDEO

CHIEFS TEAM.
1. Sona Taumalolo , 2. Mahonri Schwalger , 3. Ben Tameifuna , 4. Craig Clarke (c) , 5. Brodie Retallick , 6. Liam Messam , 7. Tanerau Latimer , 8. Kane Thompson , 9. Tawera Kerr-Barlow , 10. Aaron Cruden , 11. Asaeli Tikoirotuma , 12. Sonny Bill Williams , 13. Andrew Horrell , 14. Tim Nanai-Williams , 15. Robbie Robinson.
Replacelements : 16. Hika Elliot , 17. Ben Afeaki , 18. Michael Fitzgerald , 19. Sam Cane , 20. Brendon Leonard , 21. Jackson Willison , 22. Lelia Masaga

CRUSADERS TEAM
1. Wyatt Crockett , 2. Corey Flynn , 3. Ben Franks , 4. Luke Romano , 5. Samuel Whitelock , 6. George Whitelock , 7. Matt Todd , 8. Richie McCaw (c) , 9. Andy Ellis , 10. Dan Carter (vc) , 11. Zac Guildford , 12. Ryan Crotty , 13. Robbie Fruean , 14. Adam Whitelock , 15. Israel Dagg
Reserves : 16. Quentin MacDonald, 17. Owen Franks,18. Tom Donnelly ,19. Luke Whitelock ,20. Willi Heinz,21. Tom Taylor ,22. Sean Maitland

PREDICTION.
Crusaders’ experience to carry them through, Crusaders by 8.


Semi-Final 2:

It is unlikely that there can be more contrasting styles from two South frican franchises than the Stormers and the Sharks. The Stormers came throught the pool rounds with 15/16 wins based on the best defensive record in the competition and the Sharks as one of the leading try scoring teams, the Stormers based their game plan on defence and patience, the Sharks on going wide when the opportunity presented itself and with some sublime offloads and good execution scored some scintilating tries.

Theiir first meeting was at Newlands in round two and the Stormers came away with a solid if not spectacular win.

Final Score Stormers 15 (6) Sharks 12 (9)

Stormers
Pen - J Pietersen 3, P Grant 2

Sharks
Pen - P Lambie 4
Cards - R Skeate (60)

HIGHLIGHTS VIDEO NOT AVAILABLE.

They met the second time in week 14 and this time the Sharks turned the tables.

Final Score Sharks 25 (20) Stormers 20 (6).
Sharks
Tries - F. Michalak, K. Daniel, L. Mvovo
Pen - P. Lambie 2
Con - P. Lambie 2
Stormers
Tries - G. Aplon 2
Pen - P. Grant 2
Con - P. Grant 2

HIGHLIGHTS VIDEO

Sharks and Stormers teams not announced yet.

PREDICTION.
Stomers have been off the boil in the past few weeks, the Sharks on the other hand has been on fire, will the travel fatigue affect them this weekend? Will the Stormers defence continue to dictate terms?

Sharks by the narrowest of margins.

Well its all there in the stats' When you only have half a game you can only go so far. Stormers only scored more points than the Tahs, Force and Lions who between them won 4, 3 and 3 matches.

The Stormers won all their games by denying the other team points. Point is the only way to win games is to score points- ie tries being the most efficient means.

Its ironic that last night when they needed one to have a chance at the title, they couldnt score one. That is the risk they took with them all year- that when it mattered most theyd need tries.

biltongbek wrote:but teams with higher intent to score tries also take more risks, just look at the Chiefs this morning, Cruden had a great game but took some afully risky moves, at one stage he got the ball deep in his twenty two and went right, there was not one support player near him, fine his risks paid off today because the Crusaders just didn't seem to be as effective as usual, especially in the first half.

Just watched the replay and I think this sums up the difference in the thinking between the NZ and SA game. I for one didnt see what both you or Doc saw in Crudens game, simply because nothing bad happened his way. To say it could have is irrelevant. Fact is it didnt.

Cruden had a great game. He certainly outplayed Carter who was simply shut down by an aggressive defence. When playing for the Saders or ABs its something he doesnt get very often- even against SA.

What you see is risk, what we see is creativity. The inevitable results of his efforsts are there to see all year for the AB's and the Chiefs- aplenty- either in tries or points and definitely in field position.

The SA thinking of Crudens game is perhaps to tone it down a little where I saw nothing wrong with it. For all the low percentage runs inside the 25 they are well worth the benefits that come from the approach.

Next week the Sharks simply wont get anywhere near the room the Reds and Stormers gave them and that will be half the battle won. The last 20 is where the Sharks will be tested because if theyre in it still by then the efforts of the travel will well and truly test them and thats when the SBWS, Crudens etc will look to expose that drop in intensity.

Smith and Rennie will be discussing the Sharks downfall as I write this knowing its a home game. The lifting of the burden of travel will have lifted them, the team and the whole of Hamilton....

This is what the Sharks are up against.

And thats not even mentioning the fact that only one side has won the super title offshore, and they didnt have to win an away quarter on top.

If the Sharks win next week it will truly be one of the greatest super titles ever.

[quote="doctor_grey
I do think the Chiefs should be slight and deserved favourites. But I could see a Sharks win, too. But I am probably off my rocker and Chiefs win by 30..............[/quote]

I'm picking minimum 20 doc...most of that comingin the last 20 when the Sharks exhaustion truly kicks in. Trouble is... while we have one eye on the sharks... The ozzies are out back planning our demise in 3 weeks...

Alan this is what I meant about the Crusaders this year not being the true Crusaders. There are systemic issues at hand, starting at the top with Blackadder who despite the smorgasbord of talent have not won a title yet.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10822963

Tend to agree with this. And in reference to the last time the Chiefs were in the final:

"There are much too many smarts in the Chiefs' set-up to repeat what happened the last time they made the final - when they stumbled badly."

Good to see a slight power shift back to tyhe north Island too.

Two excellant semis, Sharks are most deserved to be in the final and from 6th is a momentus achievement. i dont know if this has been done before?

Just talking about the jet lag thing, Biltong makes a good point in that flying from West to East you actually lose the time you spend in the air.

Taylor,
I don't have a horse in this race, so I want to see a close one. These two teams give this final the makings of such a fun one to watch. You could be right about Sharks coming undone in the last 20 though I hope you are wrong. Much of it comes down to how Sharks manage the time change. My point was if they don't change routines and times much, then the gain time/lose time effect goes away to a significant degree. What can't go away is the extra rest the Chiefs have had. Any edge will be important. I could see Chiefs by the 20 you predict. I can see the Sharks by a cool dozen possibly. And anything in between.

If I am the Chiefs management, I come out and try to run the Sharks ragged. Take advantage of the long flight and the extra match. Tire them out. Keep the ball in play as much as possible avoiding the set piece.

If I am the Sharks, I slow everything down in the first half. Route 1, straight ahead stuff, and kick for touch constantly, where they must/should dominate. If they don't have an edge here, I can't see them winning.

I think it will be very hard for Chiefs to win with the same poor set piece performance they had against Crusaders, especially as Sharks will target that aggressively.

This is why this match has so much potential. Clash of style. Both teams very good, and are aggressive, but in different ways. I have to admit, I am glad there will be a new team with their name on the trophy. Hopefully not too early in the morning for me.............

yes and I hadn't read docs thesis on the effects of the body through space and time travel...seems his posts are affected by time travel as well as they weren't there whenI started my posts.Very interesting though.

Agree on the sharks Laurie. They've timed their run but I put it down to a more fuller approach to the game and being a NZer I have to wonder how much of this is to do with a NZ- I.e.- John Plumtree coach. The sharks have generally played this way over the years but it hasn't got them to the final yet.

Is it no coincidence that now Ireland and SA have NZ coaches on their top sides?

And good news for JK Laurie...with Smith and Rennie...all three are from the north island.

Of course my posts are affected by time and space. Also beer. Unfortunately, always a little late to the dance.
Never knew Plumtree was one of yours. Makes sense considering how Sharks play.

Taylor,
I missed the part of your comments about Cruden. I thought we was OK but not great. Not just getting caught going the wrong way, but some bad decisions as well. I am not bothered by the kicks since they were all long range. We do agree that he outplayed Carter. Carter was under pressure and played like it. Cruden was under a fair bit of pressure too, but was quite a bit quicker dealing with it.

This is why I think Michelak is one of the big keys. He has quite a bit of Carlos Spencer in him. Pressure on him can do spectacularly well - or fail miserably, much like with Spencer. If he can stay cool and collecrted under the strong pressue which will be thrown at him, it will be a big advantage for Sharks. He will have to take advantage of whatever opportunities arise because I don't think he will see too many.

Yep that's the key...whether he gets to do anything. If dc had problems how will a less stable 10 cope?

it's a crucial factor in the final and it'll be well planned for.

Taylorman wrote: I have to wonder how much of this is to do with a NZ- I.e.- John Plumtree coach. The sharks have generally played this way over the years but it hasn't got them to the final yet.

They were playing this way under Dick Muir a couple of years back (2007 I think) and it got them to the final, which they lost to the Bulls, because they switched their brains off in the last 30 seconds! Anyways, while I'm sure his Kiwi origins influence him, Plumtree is fairly South Africanised by now, He immigrated to SA in 1988! (Because, amongst other things, of his South African wife!). With the exception of a couple of seasons in Wales and a couple back in NZ, he's been in Durban ever since. Consequently, perhaps the Sharks play the ideal fusion of stereotypical NZ and SA rugby. Big, bruising, straight-running power forwards to suck in defences and quick and creative back-line which can, on its day, run circles around anyone....I just wish Heyneke Meyer could see the potential in this combination, and not just stick to the former while ignoring the latter.

But will the Sharks have enough to win it? I don't know. If it was in Durban, and they hadn't travelled around the world, I would be confident that they'd take it. But this not being the case, I'm not so sure. They looked to tire noticably in the last 10-15 mins against the Stormers, but the Stormers didn't have the attacking fire-power to capitalise on it. The Chiefs, on the other hand, have attacking fire-power by the bucket-load...so I fear it might be a bridge too far for the Sharks...but if they did win it would be epic!

Yes your right fishpaste..sorry didn't realise that. And accepted plumtree has spent a large part of his time in SA. His style is inherently more aligned with NZ rather than the trad. Bok approach that's all. The main point is it offers a different perspective on how the style can be played at te higher levels in SA.

Now I'm unusually tough on SA rugby for that reason alone. I think its that feeling of wanting to get in there and shake things up rather than watch this simple style which effectively puts creativity in the backs on the backburner.

The inevitable downfall of that is the rise of SA rugby to levels unseen before. Should all five SA sides play with the template used more or less by the three previously lower sides- sharks, lions and cheetahs and the boks followed accordingly, the feeder platform becomes all that much bigger, the innovation increases exponentially and the boks become that much stronger.

And the funny thing is its not about changing the existing style, its about extending it, having their cake and eating it too.

That's why the sharks coming through to the final in the manner they have, playing an expansive game based on a sound up front is so important to SAs future.

On that I agree Taylorman, Meyer can surely not be so stubborn as to not realise where the future of SA rugby lies, but then these Bulls traditions from the people north of the Jukskei river is so deeply entrenched in their genes, I fear we are in for another four years of the same.

Nobody is as blind as those who do not wish to see.

Sounds like a good synopsis to a new wilbur smith book biltong.

North of the Jukskei river the storm is rising. The mother bull protects its young from the impending threat of the rise of the lion from the east...

Reminds me. Been so long I think I've left it long enough to forget most of the plots to read them all again. Start with The Burning shore I think. That cow Centaines treatment of poor old Lothar... the old Sean Courtney battling his pride to take inthe cow back in SA and the hilarious brother Gary losing his virginity to that big german frauline dragon nurse Anna.

Havnt read Those in Peril yet ad I think poor old Wilburs lost the magic of his earlier books. Still havnt found a better story teller though.

Yep, I used to love his books, his stories started losing its appeal when the Courtneys got to the 20th century for me.

He was definitely the best describer of characters in his books, you could almost predict how each of them would react in a situation.

But to turn to rugby, I sincerely hope Meyer is awake and watching what is transpiring in front of him.

I am beginning to think JDV must go, as captain yesterday he took the wrong option by going for the three points and in a must win game showed his gutless decision making.

To be honest I looked at JPPietersen again yesterday and the difference he made at outside centre.

There is a defenite shift in SA rugby, the traditional strongholds are not North and South anymore when it comes to players with vision and inventiveness.

If I was Springbok coach there would be a signifcant number of Shark players stating a case.

That's great. Yes have to admit my jaw dropped when in front with ten to go and 7 behind they kicked the penalty. That thought simply wouldn't have registered back here.
I mean they still had to score twice if not a try...crazy.

The sharks are a good sign ten and I suppose the selection of one player will indicate Meyers thinking. A certain 10 who's name I won't mention.

Taylorman wrote:That's great. Yes have to admit my jaw dropped when in front with ten to go and 7 behind they kicked the penalty. That thought simply wouldn't have registered back here.
I mean they still had to score twice if not a try...crazy.

The sharks are a good sign ten and I suppose the selection of one player will indicate Meyers thinking. A certain 10 who's name I won't mention.

The ten who shall not be named?

Obviously, I want a certain number ten to start for the Boks when they play England later this season, but in truth his run is over, at least for now. I think we all agree the time is now to give the young up and coming players their shot. And to open the attack to get the most out of those lads.

Taylor, I was watching with my older lad and some of his Rugby teammates. Everyone thought kicking that penalty was daft. So it was daft across the world. And if you remember, JDV never hesitated, the penalty kick was an automatic decision. Perhaps this shows enough to Bok management????????

I wonder how Goosen is doing with his rehab? Hell we need him.

I am watching the replay now as I am enjoying a quiet morning coffee. Just noticed something: When Michelak kicked the penalty at 12:50 to tie the match at 3 - 3, there was a sign in the crowd I am surprised was not confiscated. It read "Shot Dad for the Tickets". It was large and easy to see being waved next to one of thse signs from The Mercury. That would never be allowed here in the US, not back home in the UK. People in the crowd would probaly try to get rid of it or call security. Of course, this was an attempt to be funny, but I wouldn't think that would be allowed.

biltongbek wrote:I wonder how Goosen is doing with his rehab? Hell we need him.

Do you recall his original diagnosis? If I recall it was a shoulder, possible roator cuff, and was supposed to be recovered not long after the Super Rugby season ended? But not sure details. If right, he might have time to work back inot shape for the Novermber Internationals. How is Lambie, by the way?

Yes the intial diagnosis for Goosen was out for the season, Lambie should make the final, but you never know.

The players the Boks will miss for te Rugby Campionship that would be crucial seems to be Burger, Goosen and Coenie Oosthuizen, I have given up on Juan Smith ever returning.

Goosens too young to be thrown into the RC and such an injury at 19 won't help his confidence so even if he's mended next year is his ticket. He's also very slight in the cruden mould so leave him till next year I reckon.

Steyn or no steyn...that is the question. Its now a given he goes poorly againt our better sides so he's a risk to the SA title chances. But Id alluded to this scenario months ago. This 'just one more time' selection of steyn is still the situation meyer has to front up to where based on his selection against england he's commmitted to steyn for 2012 regardless of his form.

I think it will take the fans anarchy to remove him now.

Yeah, you were clearly on the remove Steyn bandwagon early on. And its a little surprising the Bok management doesn't see it so clearly. The truth is I really don't want to see Steyn against England again because there is so much Springbok takent which is being hampered or limited with him in there playing that game plan.

It is a bit funny, but I just realised that the Sharks play a very similar game plan and are constructed in a similar fashion as my Northampton Saints. A great front row as the platform. Strong, talented, and mobile forwards sucking in the defense and making holes and opportunities for the backs. Then ensuring the ball gets out there. Would be nice if England management would see the same thing as we are talking about with the Boks. I think there is a fair bit of England talent withering on the vine as well.

Taylorman i`m getting certain vibes in the Media here Todd Blackadder is a nearly man because the Crusaders have`nt won on his watch.The Crusaders arn`t the same this year etc.The Super title with rare exceptions goes to the Home Finalists and Semi finalists the corrolary of that.Is those teams earned the right by being top of the Log.The conference sytem plus the draw effects that the Crusaders last 4 games were the Hurricanes,Chieftains,An OZ side,and Chieftains again.Three of those matches were probably decided on a TMO decision rightly or wrongly.Compare that with the run in of Bulls and Stormers who were meeting the weakest Conference teams.Even the Sharks met a Reds team without there leading playmaker had only squeeked into the play offs on points difference or having won an earliers match or something similar.Only a Wild Card because the system say there must be an OZ one there.
Last year Crusaders had real depth Chris Jack and Brad Thorn plus Romano was the engine room.THE best Front row in the Comp,Todd backing up RM,Matt BerquisT backing up DC,a fit Kieron Read,SBW with a firing Fruen etc.
They had the sympathy vote Earthquakes,always playing away,key iinjuries yet they made the Final and the fatigue factor was just to much.
This year they lost Chris Jack,Brad Thorn,SBW,Read,Carter,McCaw,Crotty,Guli ford,Dagg,Maitland to injuries at crucial times.There back ups are ITM players talented but not yet there.Where Crudon was two years ago when he had a nightmare of a year.
This year all the media is full of is Crudon and SBW yes they are probably THE best 10/12 combo in Super series.BUT are they the best 10 or 12 ?Nonu hasn`t been firing Dan Carter missed a lot of the season recoverin from injuries. Then played for a while at 12 game by game he improved versus the Bulls he was his imperious best.BECAUSE his pack gave him front foot ball all game against the Chiefs he was targetted successfully and he was`nt his best.Since his Groin injury his goal kicking has been a little off .McCaw despite playing out of position is back to his best he was targetted too despite it he still made lots of tackles and won many lineouts.These things are decided on small things a good start,a TMO decision going your way,a weeks rest,maybe a better game plan.
The Chiefs this year have been the top or second all year and by the form book should win the S15.
In 2013 SBW is gone Crudon will then be playing with a 12 who is not the best in the world [NONU]or a reasonable substitute[SBW].Dan Carter will still have good old dependable Ryan Crotty or Adam Whitelock are you willing to bet that 2013 the Crusaders won`t be there or there abouts again.Crusaders are to Super rugby as AllBlacks are to 3Ns Rugby THE bench mark or even RWCs consider Ted and co`s Record.Despite an incredible win loss record after 2007 there were doubts in the Media about whether he would ever win a RWC..Were you among those who in 2009 doubted the 3 wise men after the 3-0 Bok whitewash?or like me who KNEW they were still the best for NZ.PDV is revilled by most Bok supporters but his record has a 5-1 3Ns title,a 2-1 Lions win and a 5-6 AllBlacks win loss ratio.Fact is the SA Rugby was overall on upward curve and the NZ one flat lining at Super level.
The Crusaders by there standards are a team rebuilding depth and 6 loss Season is not acceptable. BUT they are still the Standard every one else strives to achieve Blackadder kept them at that level.Despite horrendous injuries a couple of Seasons ago they won a semi spot ondouble bonus point losses.Chieftains reached the final at Loftus Versfeld i`ll draw a veil over that shall we?Aron Crudon is good but better than DC EVERY TIME no way!!!!.
Now come on Chiefs do to Freddie Michelak what you did to Dan Carter and bring the title home to NZ.

Sorry,Doctor Grey Freddie Michelak has already been capped for France you can`t have him at 10 for the Boks!!!

Michelak won't be an issue for the chiefs. He's no better than the 10s have faced last few matches. Chiefs have played a very high level of opposition lately- saders, canes, saders etc so are certainly up for this final. Their defence was back to its punishing best and few teams deal to the saders the way the chiefs did. Sure they didn't nail them well before time but not a lot of teams find putting away the saders in playoffs 'easy'.

Totally confident of a Chiefs win next week where it will be more in your face stuff.

Chiefs also have the knowledge the beat the sharks in their own back yard so although that means little its still a niggling reminder of what they're up against.

My thinking is if theyre expecting michelak to carry the day they've another thing coming. He'll be the first on the smith, Rennie menu for treatment. The sharks play a very NZ similar game which makes it easier in some respects- it likens more to a local derby where both sides try and out do eachother on the same basis.

Just a pity the travel factor may contribute to less of a contest.

emack2 wrote:Sorry,Doctor Grey Freddie Michelak has already been capped for France you can`t have him at 10 for the Boks!!!

Mate, you have me in the wrong country! I'm English. But it is easy to confuse us in Rugby terms. We play kick-chase, kick-chase, kick-chase, zzzzzzzzz. The attacking nous and imagination of a slug.

But I am a big fan of Rugby gobally and have rarely rooted against anyone (too seriously). I think the potential in SA at moment is scary good, but they need to unlock it. Its here where I have a lot of empathy (how's that for a word in a Rugby conversation?) for SA fans.

Right now the biggest thing in Rugby is the Super Rugby playoffs. For me, its hard not to be passionaltely interested.

Regarding Michalak, I think he was the missing piece for France at the last RWC. Imagine Freddie at stand off instead of Parra or Trihn-Duc? Cripe, the difference would have been huge.

Taylorman wrote:Michelak won't be an issue for the chiefs. He's no better than the 10s have faced last few matches. Chiefs have played a very high level of opposition lately- saders, canes, saders etc so are certainly up for this final. Their defence was back to its punishing best and few teams deal to the saders the way the chiefs did. Sure they didn't nail them well before time but not a lot of teams find putting away the saders in playoffs 'easy'.

For me, its not so much about whether Chiefs can handle Freddie, or anyone really. Its about how he plays in the face of the tidal wave coming his way. He will need to create space for himself whch Carter, for instance, was not able to do sufficiently on Friday. This is the point where I think he can be the difference. Not remotely easy, which is why Chiefs are hosting the final. On the other hand, I do think he is playing better than other 10s Chiefs have played recently. And he is a tough little rooster.

And, by the way before I go out to work in the garden, I am not actually a Sharks supporter here. I really enjoy how they are playing - the Chiefs as well. This is the final I absolutely wanted.

I like how Freddie plays, even though he is French and might be prone to beating England:

Aux armes, citoyens,
Formez vos bataillons,
Marchons, marchons!
Qu'un sang impur,
Abreuve nos sillons!

................Now its game on.

Just watched the second semi (Stormers v Sharks). Enjoyed it immensely. Did anybody see Gio Aplon flash an imaginary yellow at Steve Walsh just before Peter Grant's penalty around 71 minutes. Not a fan of that really, though my first instinct was there was maybe a case for a yellow.

The Sharks will miss Michalak, but we've still got Lambie, and he has the potential to be as good, if not better (although he needs to be allowed to settle into a position. Plumtree still reckons his best position in no.10). And who knows, Michalak might be back, he has got a Durbanite wife after all (the women are well-constructed over here!).

I whole-heartedly agree with much of what's said above: SA has a golden opportunity right now. We have world-class power forwards and world-class attacking backs, both available in large quantities: the Bok coaches just need to utilise them...as the Sharks have...and voila....

The other thing I find difficult to grasp is that if Meyer is dedicated to a conservative, kicking game, then why not choose Grant at 10. at least he can actually do it properly these days...

I hope that when the Super Rugby is over, and the boks have more time to prepare, there will be some bolder selections. I have been giving Meyer the benefit of the doubt, and assumed that during the England tests, he went with familiar Bulls faces, who know his ways, to tide him over because of the lack of preparation time. And now with more time he will unleash the Golden age of Bok Rugby, through power, and attacking flair.... I could be mistaken though.

doctor_grey wrote:
But I am a big fan of Rugby gobally and have rarely rooted against anyone (too seriously). I think the potential in SA at moment is scary good, but they need to unlock it. Its here where I have a lot of empathy (how's that for a word in a Rugby conversation?) for SA fans.

Right now the biggest thing in Rugby is the Super Rugby playoffs. For me, its hard not to be passionaltely interested.

Regarding Michalak, I think he was the missing piece for France at the last RWC. Imagine Freddie at stand off instead of Parra or Trihn-Duc? Cripe, the difference would have been huge.

A true rugby fan, I don my cap to you Sir.

biltongbek wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:
But I am a big fan of Rugby gobally and have rarely rooted against anyone (too seriously). I think the potential in SA at moment is scary good, but they need to unlock it. Its here where I have a lot of empathy (how's that for a word in a Rugby conversation?) for SA fans.

Right now the biggest thing in Rugby is the Super Rugby playoffs. For me, its hard not to be passionaltely interested.

Regarding Michalak, I think he was the missing piece for France at the last RWC. Imagine Freddie at stand off instead of Parra or Trihn-Duc? Cripe, the difference would have been huge.

A true rugby fan, I don my cap to you Sir.

+1

Taylorman wrote:Michelak won't be an issue for the chiefs. He's no better than the 10s have faced last few matches. Chiefs have played a very high level of opposition lately- saders, canes, saders etc so are certainly up for this final. Their defence was back to its punishing best and few teams deal to the saders the way the chiefs did. Sure they didn't nail them well before time but not a lot of teams find putting away the saders in playoffs 'easy'.

Totally confident of a Chiefs win next week where it will be more in your face stuff.

Chiefs also have the knowledge the beat the sharks in their own back yard so although that means little its still a niggling reminder of what they're up against.

My thinking is if theyre expecting michelak to carry the day they've another thing coming. He'll be the first on the smith, Rennie menu for treatment. The sharks play a very NZ similar game which makes it easier in some respects- it likens more to a local derby where both sides try and out do eachother on the same basis.

Just a pity the travel factor may contribute to less of a contest.

Sometimes you confuse me with your statements. You feel confident that our game plan isn't good enough to beat the All Blacks, yet here we have a team that plays similar style to All Black rugby and yet you feel they know how to handle that as well.

Me thinks the belief you have in your teams is admirable and there is nothing wrong with that, I however think gameplan has little to do with your confidence, it is more a case of your belief in New Zealand rugby being superior.

Risca Rev wrote:Just watched the second semi (Stormers v Sharks). Enjoyed it immensely. Did anybody see Gio Aplon flash an imaginary yellow at Steve Walsh just before Peter Grant's penalty around 71 minutes. Not a fan of that really, though my first instinct was there was maybe a case for a yellow.

I did, it surprised me a bit as he is usually very low key, I guess it was desperation time for them.

Mr Fishpaste wrote:The other thing I find difficult to grasp is that if Meyer is dedicated to a conservative, kicking game, then why not choose Grant at 10. at least he can actually do it properly these days...

I hope that when the Super Rugby is over, and the boks have more time to prepare, there will be some bolder selections. I have been giving Meyer the benefit of the doubt, and assumed that during the England tests, he went with familiar Bulls faces, who know his ways, to tide him over because of the lack of preparation time. And now with more time he will unleash the Golden age of Bok Rugby, through power, and attacking flair.... I could be mistaken though.

I agree, we currently have some awesome forwards even considering the fact that some have retired.

Beast
Bismarck
Jannie
Etzebeth
Bekker
Marcell
Willem Alberts
Kankowski
Coenie oosthuizen
Juandre Kruger
Adriaan Strauss
Duane Vermeulen
Kitshoff
Burger.
Kolisi
These are the forwards I would like to see looked after and developed for the next four years.

Backline.
Ruan Pienaar
Francois Hougaard
Goosen
Lambie
Grant
Frans Steyn
Jan serfontein
William small Smith
Paul Jordaan
JJ Engelbrecht
Johan Sadie
Louis Ludick
Jaco Taute
Habana

If we look at these guys they are young and all show some willingness to play will ball in hand.

JDV in my opinion is stifling our Backline, and it is time Meyer earmarks some younger players to build a squad around, I think we need to keep to structures but allow players like Hougaard to thrive under a freedom to play his natural game, the same with Lambie, or Goosen at 10, due to the little time Lambie played at 10 this season and Goosen not being avaiable, I think Grant will be an improvement on Steyn at 10, he may still be conservative but is better than Steyn in my opinion anyway.

The Michelak dig was a Joke Dr.Grey like you Ican`t understand why he was`nt a regular for France recently .But the French coach was at odds with a lot of his players.Morgan Parra before Trin hDuc let alone Freddie must be drinking to much Absinthe`

Biltong lets hope Meyer gets his selection or game plan wrong because PDV`s 5-6 win record is too damn close as an AB supporter for comfort.Want another 6-0 AB win to start off a new dynasty thats hoping not thinking it likely.

biltongbek wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Michelak won't be an issue for the chiefs. He's no better than the 10s have faced last few matches. Chiefs have played a very high level of opposition lately- saders, canes, saders etc so are certainly up for this final. Their defence was back to its punishing best and few teams deal to the saders the way the chiefs did. Sure they didn't nail them well before time but not a lot of teams find putting away the saders in playoffs 'easy'.

Totally confident of a Chiefs win next week where it will be more in your face stuff.

Chiefs also have the knowledge the beat the sharks in their own back yard so although that means little its still a niggling reminder of what they're up against.

My thinking is if theyre expecting michelak to carry the day they've another thing coming. He'll be the first on the smith, Rennie menu for treatment. The sharks play a very NZ similar game which makes it easier in some respects- it likens more to a local derby where both sides try and out do eachother on the same basis.

Just a pity the travel factor may contribute to less of a contest.

Sometimes you confuse me with your statements. You feel confident that our game plan isn't good enough to beat the All Blacks, yet here we have a team that plays similar style to All Black rugby and yet you feel they know how to handle that as well.

Me thinks the belief you have in your teams is admirable and there is nothing wrong with that, I however think gameplan has little to do with your confidence, it is more a case of your belief in New Zealand rugby being superior.

For this particular game its because the sharks bring a familiar gameplan. Its similar to ours which means we have been doing it longer, and generally better. Its not until SA is deploying this style across all its resources that it will be stronger than ours, and that will be due to two main factors- resources-.players and finances...and your better weather, faster grounds. In essence you'll merge the best of oz and nz rugby. Look at the back play oz sides are able to conjure up out of the pitiful union player resource they have. SA are way behind them in that respect at test level when there's no need to be.

I just meant for next week, the styles being more similar, will suit the chiefs game. Our sides are used to defending against width.

Good thing then we haven't told them that.

Taylorman wrote:

I just meant for next week, the styles being more similar, will suit the chiefs game. Our sides are used to defending against width.

But can they defend against Willem Alberts' width

Well done to both the Chiefs and the Sharks. I missed the Crusaders match but managed to see the last half of the Cape Town match while I was in Oporto.

Good to see the Chiefs make another final and this time at home. Huge ask for the Sharks with all that travel. Will they have anything left in the tank? There is much to like about their game. What are the chances of Petersen at OC for the 4N? I'm not a fan of moving in players for the sake of it but Fourie is a big loss and JP looked good there.

Finally, why on earth with so little time on the clock would the Stormers not go for 7 points instead of 3. With the penalty they still needed to score a try so why not go for levelling things up instead of taking a meaningless 3 points. They looked menacing down in the Sharks 22. I'd have taken a scrum right in the centre of the pitch. Hindsight makes it an easier call but to me that was a huge error on the Stormers' part. If they'd had 3 points to make after the Fat Freddy drop (Kiwi band rather than insulting Michalak who looks in good touch), then the Stormers had much better options.

Well Kia, that decision came down to JDV, a player part of the "old regime"

It should be concerning to Bok supporters that Heyneke Meyer selected one of the old guard as captain.

It is clear the mentality of JDV is fear of failure to go for 3 points when there is less than ten minutes on the clock. The paradox is he lost anyway, so the fear of failure is moot when you resign to finding 3 penalties in less than 10 minutes.

Meyer has been very quiet since the English tour so he isn't coming out to alleviate anyone's fears either.

I am hoping against hope that he has locked himself in a room, plotting his new gameplan.

I also think Frans Steyn and JP Pietersen will be a formidable midfield.

Yes agree and it will be hard to go with a lambie type inside those two- too dramatic a shift for someone so conservative. Like many here I think he'll head more towards Peter Grant with his extremely high goal kick rate.

Question there is whether he can handle the International pace and demands as there will be reasons he hasnt been there before now.

Wonder if Meyer will even make the trip to watch the final. You'd think that would be a must. If he doesnt, and stays back to attend training of the remaining players, I think that will be a clear message.

Steve Walsh announced as ref for next weekend. now thats a big call considering Joubert's performance at Hamilton.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Steve Walsh announced as ref for next weekend. now thats a big call considering Joubert's performance at Hamilton.

What does Walsh have on someone? I don't get it.

What i'm getting at doc, Is that (In my opinion) that joubert had a much harder game to ref in Hamilton than what Walsh had in capetown. when you get teams playing similar styles the diferences in play are harder to isolate and adjuducate over, but with good game management you can let play run , Whereas when you get teams playing quite different styles lots of differences are more obvious, and a ref can run from stoppage to stoppage and be seen as doing a "capable " job.

Both referees are very capable, I was just somewhat surprised that Walsh was given it.

Anybody else think that with 8 min to go and with a penalty in front of the posts the Stormers made a bad call in taking the 3pts? They still needed a try anyway...

Yup, crazy. Bulls did the same the week prior against the crusaders. Can lump those two teams in the same basket perhaps. The sharks and other SA teams seem to be a litlle bit more adventurous.