SH are better because they play less rugby in S15?

Saw this in a quote by Gareth Delve in TRP. "better pitches and only 16 regular season games means players are less fatigued"
"since I've been in Australia I've managed a three month per-season and would have had a two month break on top of that but for joining the Wales squad prior to the WC"
"in nine years in the Prem generally had no longer than six weeks Pre-season preparation"
Less games= more time for rehab/conditioning=more pace and intensity
Anyone for a level playing field?

The NH has been trying to playing the "fatigue" card for as since professionalism started and the first RWC kick off.

Thing is when they are at the start of the season they still losing and then they claim they are "rusty".

It is the silliest when we go (as the recent Wales v Australia tour series) from "rusty" in week 1 to "fatigured" in week 3.

It's excusemongery at it's most shameless.

ghostie's English is pretty good today!

Sugar, are you going to contribute to the site anything? or merely following around me forever and make the comment on my English?

Now some time ago, the originator ADAM posted a thread to tell all posters not to accuse other posters of being an alias. So you are doing it now, you should watch out, because if any moderator are consistent then you will get the ban. And we wouldn't want that.

Dontheman wrote:Saw this in a quote by Gareth Delve in TRP. "better pitches and only 16 regular season games means players are less fatigued"
"since I've been in Australia I've managed a three month per-season and would have had a two month break on top of that but for joining the Wales squad prior to the WC"
"in nine years in the Prem generally had no longer than six weeks Pre-season preparation"
Less games= more time for rehab/conditioning=more pace and intensity
Anyone for a level playing field?

I think it definitely plays a part. But before professionalism the SH still mostly kicked our arse so...

AWOP
You do sound a tad defensive. I hope you feel better now But do keep up with the English lessons it's definitely improving

South African players play non stop rugby from the Beginning of February where they will play 2-3 warm up matches, then 16-19 Super XV matches (depending if they make the finals) then 3 June tests, then the Rugby Championship 6 matches, then Currie Cup which finishes end of October (the Springbok players will resume Currie Cup when the Rugby Champioship is over first week in October) most likely 3 matches and then the Autumn Internationals.

So they will play 12 tests
16-19 Super Rugby matches
3-4 Currie Cup matches

So you are looking at 31-35 matches.

What is not taken in consideration (when looking at the fatigue factor) the players would have traveled to OZ, NZ and back home twice, flown to Argentina and have played on four continents.

biltongbek wrote:South African players play non stop rugby from the Beginning of February where they will play 2-3 warm up matches, then 16-19 Super XV matches (depending if they make the finals) then 3 June tests, then the Rugby Championship 6 matches, then Currie Cup which finishes end of October (the Springbok players will resume Currie Cup when the Rugby Champioship is over first week in October) most likely 3 matches and then the Autumn Internationals.

So they will play 12 tests
16-19 Super Rugby matches
3-4 Currie Cup matches

So you are looking at 31-35 matches.

What is not taken in consideration (when looking at the fatigue factor) the players would have traveled to OZ, NZ and back home twice, flown to Argentina and have played on four continents.

The NZ players do get rested in Super rugby at times. That said, since 2001 Richie McCaw has played around 250 matches for NZ, the Crusaders and Canterbury. Allowing for a couple of seasons worth of time of due to major injuries means he's averaging over 25 games a year.

The Aussies and Kiwis play an absurd number of internationals in some years, although Delve might have his feet up for most of the season I dont think the same can be said for many of those actually selected for their test teams.
The NH players do get rested as well. Certainly the EPS deal limits the starting matches in a season for England players, and allows the England coach to enforce rests (very rarely used though) and gives control over training and fitness to the national set up (again though how much they actually overide clubs on this Im not sure)

If not playing many games is so important then Scotland should win more grandslams since their players dont have too many HC games, dont have much involvement in the Rabo playoffs, dont progress far in the world cup, mostly dont have to worry about Lions selection, dont play on sundays (in Murrays case) and at least one test a year utterly fail to turn up.
OK so perhaps that explains why they did so much better on their summer tour than the poor tired Welsh players.

I think what helps the players development though is a more structured season with less club/country clashes over when they should peak, and spending more time with their international teammates.

Its surprising how little the travelling actually seems to affect players, although the addition of Argentina and the extra airmiles that entails may start to cause some burnout...especially amongst those who have been doing it a few years and can look to France and Japan for a better pay deal.

anotherworldofpain wrote:The NH has been trying to playing the "fatigue" card for as since professionalism started and the first RWC kick off.

Thing is when they are at the start of the season they still losing and then they claim they are "rusty".

It is the silliest when we go (as the recent Wales v Australia tour series) from "rusty" in week 1 to "fatigured" in week 3.

It's excusemongery at it's most shameless.

Yet another non-wales article and AWOC turns it into another dig at Wales. Next he will be mentioning Gav.

The fact is in the Professional era the workload in BOTH Hemispheres is similar.In Nz for example on average he will have about 6 weeks out of 52 either playing or training.Average 14-15 international matches,15-19 Super matches.Maybe 3 or 4 ITM matches and pre-season warm up games as well McCaw and Carter played less because they were injured.Burnout is a major problem world wide ,The Bean counters don`t worry about this.Never mind the quality feel the width,sorry but fact is .SH is usually better ever since 1905/6 with a few glitches in between there is little to prove the gap is closing except rhetoric.

excusemongery - classic AWOP..

It may be that Delve doesnt play as much as other SH players. Hes only contracted to the Rebels. In NZ we have the ITM which means another 10 plus matches if available. Oz doesnt have a similar competition.

But it doesnt really account for the last 30 years or so either.

Without a shadow of a doubt the 'easiest' (not sure if that's the word but I'm going with it) deal at the top level is a non-International S15 player for an Australian side. They've only got the S15 to worry about. As others have said the Kiwis and South Africans have an additional level of competition and they all have the internationals.

Fact is that the intensity of both SXV and 3N rugby has always been much more higher than on 6N and NH club rugby so you can counting 3N clash as many 2x most 6N games.

I thought the SH teams were better because they play the best teams regularly at SR level and at Int level.

Ozzie SuperRugby players do have it easiest but then I assume they probably earn less then their equivalent NZ or SA players? Does anyone know how much the SH SupR players get per season?

I guess the structuring of the season makes more sense out there. Also then if like Delve you are not involved in the internationals you get a heap of time off. It would be exactly the same here if we played the rabo/jeff, then HEC, then 6Ns then tours. The non-international players would have more time off.

Yappy, this season the oz squads had a cap of $4 million for 30 players. In past seasons the maximum per individual was $150k, but they removed that limit in favour of a cap, so the better players will get more and the squad players get peanuts. A Genia or Pocock type player would probably earn around 300k from their club and I guess a squad player as low as $50-60k.

The Super clubs and the ARU are in negotiations at present to raise the cap to $4.8m for 2013, but the NRL cap is heading for $6m which will diminish any additional buying power we might have gained.

A marquee player, such as Pretorious at Tahs or Nalaga at Force, is outside the cap.

There are then about 35 players who also have ARU contracts. Rumors are the best of our players get 300-400k out of those deals.

One thing I will say is that while Delve was in the AV he wasn't (hardly ever) involved in the Wales set up, so would have been a non-international (for the most part) and it's quite a good comparison between the 2 leagues.

Though of course I accept the arguments above that there is a lot of rugby played in the SH

anotherworldofpain wrote:Fact is that the intensity of both SXV and 3N rugby has always been much more higher than on 6N and NH club rugby so you can counting 3N clash as many 2x most 6N games.

Showing your ignorance there AWOP. To compare like for like you should be comparing SXV with Heiniken Cup not club rugby. Where's your evidence? Just empty factless wumming eh? We are trying to have a debate here. Shown your true colours haven't you

boomeranga wrote:Yappy, this season the oz squads had a cap of $4 million for 30 players. In past seasons the maximum per individual was $150k, but they removed that limit in favour of a cap, so the better players will get more and the squad players get peanuts. A Genia or Pocock type player would probably earn around 300k from their club and I guess a squad player as low as $50-60k.

The Super clubs and the ARU are in negotiations at present to raise the cap to $4.8m for 2013, but the NRL cap is heading for $6m which will diminish any additional buying power we might have gained.

A marquee player, such as Pretorious at Tahs or Nalaga at Force, is outside the cap.

There are then about 35 players who also have ARU contracts. Rumors are the best of our players get 300-400k out of those deals.

Cheers Boomeranga, is that similar to what NZ or SA players can expect then? I really didn't realise top Oz players were paid so well. Makes you wonder how much Giteau and Elsom were paid to come North.

Wasn't Giteau on 190,000 dollars at the Force? When he was first given that contract I thought I read that he was the highest payed RU player in Aus at the time. I'd imagine he is on 500,000 at Toulon (or maybe more).

Btw, is 50-60k (Oz dollars) a lot of money? What would that be around in the pound or euro?

Also, to add to the Dons point; there are a few average players from the NH in Super XV. I'm looking at Delve and Sidey who used to be at the Dragons here, who are shining in their teams. Perhaps the gap between club rugby isn't as massive as AWOP would have you believe.

The thread states that NH sides play more games than SH sides presumably Test,Cup,and Club matches.Which is mostly incorrect at the Top level it is roughly equal .Top HC qualified Teams are roughly the equivalent of the S15 Franchises.With the exception of the Melbourne rebels the other 14 S15 Franchises have relatively few NH players average or otherwise less than 50 tops.It must also be pointed out that many average by the best SH standards moved to the NH to play Premier/Magners or Top14.As well as more high profile players often uncapped or single capped by there countries they moved for cash and game time.They were often very good servants of there new clubs over long periods of time .At Club level ITM/Currie Cup level there are many average honest journeymen who week in week out play to a consistently high standard.Players like Tom Taylor,Tom Marshall,Tyler Blyendahl,Luke Whitelock who play at ITM level all the time.With the odd start or ride the pine at S15 level BUT at some point they may become established test players.To name 4or 5 Crusaders players you could call average Guidford,Maitland,Crotty,Adam Whitelock even George Whitelock.BUT they would`nt let an AllBlack side down and in touring days would have played probably 16 matches mid week on a 36 match tour.

yappysnap wrote:

boomeranga wrote:Yappy, this season the oz squads had a cap of $4 million for 30 players. In past seasons the maximum per individual was $150k, but they removed that limit in favour of a cap, so the better players will get more and the squad players get peanuts. A Genia or Pocock type player would probably earn around 300k from their club and I guess a squad player as low as $50-60k.

The Super clubs and the ARU are in negotiations at present to raise the cap to $4.8m for 2013, but the NRL cap is heading for $6m which will diminish any additional buying power we might have gained.

A marquee player, such as Pretorious at Tahs or Nalaga at Force, is outside the cap.

There are then about 35 players who also have ARU contracts. Rumors are the best of our players get 300-400k out of those deals.

Cheers Boomeranga, is that similar to what NZ or SA players can expect then? I really didn't realise top Oz players were paid so well. Makes you wonder how much Giteau and Elsom were paid to come North.

Mate I'm not sure what the guys in SA and NZ would be on. They have better production lines than us though so perhaps don't have to cling to individuals quite as hard as we do.

I think relative to our resources that the highest paid players probably earn too much, but we have to do it in order to keep them. We'd lose on the field without them, but Cooper / Beale / Genia / O'Connor / Ioane / Pocock are also the ones who generate the interest from outside rugby circles so we'd lose out twice. We really struggle against NRL and AFL for kids, so we need a batch of Beibers to get their interest.

Rocky would have cost a fair bit back in 2009(?), but Gits value was on the slide here before he left. Most of the blame for a few of our more high profile failures were laid at his feet and it left a bit of a funk he couldn't shake.

Morgannwg wrote:Wasn't Giteau on 190,000 dollars at the Force? When he was first given that contract I thought I read that he was the highest payed RU player in Aus at the time. I'd imagine he is on 500,000 at Toulon (or maybe more).

Btw, is 50-60k (Oz dollars) a lot of money? What would that be around in the pound or euro?

Gits would prob been on that or more Morgan. The Force had concessions when he was there so I think Giteau, Sharpe, drew Mitchell and Brendan Cannon all got big bucks.

50-60k would be around the national average wage. It isn't a lot, but lots of people earn far less. I'd say if you were 21 with a chance of going further, 60 would mean you are going alright. If 27 and still holding the bags, it might be time to explore other options.

The only figure I have heard from a reliable source for currie cup contracts are:

A grade contract which is R600 000 per year = Roughly 66000 Aus Dollar
B grade contract which is R360 000 per year = Roughly 42000 Aus Dollar.

The B grade is the starting contract in Currie Cup, I cannot find anywhere how much the Super XV players earn.

The above are the standard contracts at the Lions, I don't know whether there is a cap on what they are allowed too earn, or any other benefits apart from the players do get sponsored cars from dealerships, Josh Strauss as an example drives a Jeep Wrangler unlimited for as long as he is with the Lions.

SH are better because we're arrogant

biltongbek wrote:The above are the standard contracts at the Lions, I don't know whether there is a cap on what they are allowed too earn, or any other benefits apart from the players do get sponsored cars from dealerships, Josh Strauss as an example drives a Jeep Wrangler unlimited for as long as he is with the Lions.

Sounds like Haskell and his Range Rovers!

boomeranga wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Wasn't Giteau on 190,000 dollars at the Force? When he was first given that contract I thought I read that he was the highest payed RU player in Aus at the time. I'd imagine he is on 500,000 at Toulon (or maybe more).

Btw, is 50-60k (Oz dollars) a lot of money? What would that be around in the pound or euro?

Gits would prob been on that or more Morgan. The Force had concessions when he was there so I think Giteau, Sharpe, drew Mitchell and Brendan Cannon all got big bucks.

50-60k would be around the national average wage. It isn't a lot, but lots of people earn far less. I'd say if you were 21 with a chance of going further, 60 would mean you are going alright. If 27 and still holding the bags, it might be time to explore other options.

Bear in mind this was back in 2006. They probably upped his wages since. So the average wage is similar to the UK, 20-30k?

dallym wrote:SH are better because we're arrogant

ABs are best because we're the most arrogant.
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