Levein Must Go

First topic message reminder :

I've stood up for Craig Levein for a while now but no more. Today Ian Black, after about 200 appearances for Hearts and Inverness without a Scotland call-up (in the SPL) has been called up for Scotland after 1 game with The Rangers in Division 3. Lee Wallace hasn't been called up and he's arguably our best FB.

I understand their are injuries, but there have been injuries before and where was Black? I'm not sticking up for him; he's a thug but because he plays for The Rangers he gets a call-up. I'm all for picking players that aren't in the SPL and are in the English leagues, as long as they don't play below Championship level (unless you're Jordan Rhodes ), but frankly this is ridiculous. It's not about the player, it's about the club he plays for.

So long Craig, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/140954-ross-mccormack-and-ian-black-added-to-scotland-squad-after-four-ruled-out/

Harry Redknapp for Scotland! I'm sorry, someone had to say it.

They shouldn't call the next incumbent of the job "Manager" it should be "Turd Polisher".

No matter who is in charge, Scotland are complete GASH. I'm glad we're bottom of the table with no chance of qualification.

So Super...hypothetically speaking...if the SFA approached you with an offer you couldn't refuse to be Scottish Football Tsar and gave you a blank canvas with a remit to get us back in the worlds top 16 in 10 years... Where would you start and what approach would you take? What would be your guiding principles?

It's dead easy to say what a shocking state we're in.
Open to debate but not difficult to list the reasons and contributing factors that have got us here.
Not quite so easy to plot a way out of it though is it??

I think it's high time the top brass got their heads out their arses and started to focus on how to arrest and turn around our awful decline.

Jas, the simple truth is that Scotland do not deserve to be in the top 16 in the world, England barely do with all their resources. It's fair to say they over-achieved in the 70's and 80's, whilst other countries were less well set up.

THe point I'm making is that it's fine to sack Levein, but it doesn't matter who you put in you aren't going to get much out of them. Scotland aren't a football nation anymore and shouldn't really be expecting much more than 4th place in a qualification.

You need to stop picking players who play in Scotland for a start, the standard isn't good enough to step up to international competition.
Switch Scottish football to Summer, merge teams like Hearts and Hibs, Dundee and Utd together and get back to a stronger more competitive league. Also stop transfers/asset stripping between SPL clubs denuding competitiveness.
First of all though, get rid of the SFA and start again with people who know what they are doing.

10 years would be pushing it though, more like 30.

I tend to agree that we're currently in a shocking state, I think where we differ is that I think we can achieve much more IF we start getting things right.

Why shouldn't we set a target of where we want to be and set about trying to achieve it? Why should we accept that so many nations should easily be better than us?

Is it just a natural cyclical decline in talent or is it much more?

Social
Economic
Just plain and simple bad timing
Shockingly poor administration/governance of the game

Personally I think we've lost our passion and swagger, effectively we're too scared to be confident incase we get another Argentina '78 type humiliation.

I think that's when the decline actually started although Stein managed to keep the ship steady until he went. Post Stein the decline has been alarming. Roxburgh & Brown were complete and utter disasters, suppressing our natural style of play, talking up minnows to try and disguise their complete and utter incompetence, I still remember Roxburgh at Italia '90 "oh Costa Rica are a very good side" Whit!!! Our under 18 schoolboys should have been humping them 5 or 6 nil!! That negative nonsense just exacerbated the decline.
Vogts wasn't any better although I did think at the time a proven foreign coach was worth a try. Clearly it didn't work, smith and McLeish temporarily stopped
things getting any worse but post their tenures the decline resumed.

The clubs have to take their share of the blame, infighting and self interest has prevented them negotiating a decent TV deal that would bring much needed money into grass roots level development.

I think its just blatently wrong to say Scotland can't do much better, Craig Levein is/was an utter failure of a manager for Scotland and shouldn't have been given the job in the first place because he achieved nothing as a manager other than a couple of decent league finishes with Hearts and Dundee Utd about 6 years apart

The obvious case in point would be when Berti Vogts was in charge of Scotland, when he was sacked in 2004 Scotland had dropped to 88th in the World Rankings and had already more or less lost the opportunity to qualify for the 2006 World Cup, when Walter Smith took over in 2005, in two and a half years time Scotland would have risen to the dizzy heights of 12th in the World and where extremely unlucky not to qualify for the Euros in 08 despite having two World Cup Finalists in our group and quarter finalists Ukraine, the players didn't change too drastically, the thing that changed was the fact we had two managers in Smith and McLeish who had actually achieved things in the game and new how to get the best of of the players available, that's the one fundemental flaw in Levein's make up.

Maybe a new manager wouldn't get us qualification but I believe a better manager than Levein would get us better results

I don't buy all that "we deserve to be bottom" or "I hope we finish bottom" nonsense, it doesn't matter if we're rated number 1 or number 101 in the World, you should always strive to succeed not hope we fail, that's an utterly depressing view point

As usual though Scottish expectations are too high and hopelessly unrealistic.

They should focus on getting third in qualifying for a few years, hoping for the odd result against higher ranked opposition and improving their coefficient over 3-4 qualifying tournaments.
It isn't feasably possible to qualify for any tournament now, or in the immediate future, and even if they did, they'd be even more of a laughing stock than the tatty munchers at this years Euro's.

Can't believe we were once 12th in the World!

I think we have got a decent grassroots structure now and the bones of a good young Scottish team.
Never going to be 12th again but top 40 would be a reasonable position for me.

Results and managers are strange.

Englands best manager.......Gordon Taylor
Scotlands best managers.....Andy Roxborough or Craig Broon.

Gordon Taylor? The PFA chief? Graham Taylor don't you mean?

I think Scotland do have some decent players in their team and it only needs a manager with a little bit of talent to get the best of them.

Crimey wrote:I think Scotland do have some decent players in their team and it only needs a manager with a little bit of talent to get the best of them.

...and therein lies another problem, a side symptom of how much money has ultimately skewed and distorted the whole value system in football. Scotland cannot get anywhere near starting to afford the best manager there is ie Fergie. We can still produce excellent managers (Moys, Lambert etc) but the Scotland job is seen as inferior to and probably pays a lot less than your average Premiership side. Sad but true and not likely to change anytime soon. So we have to make do with the best we can get/afford not the best there is.

That's a very surprising stat Doon, schoolteacher Roxburgh and infinitely dreary Broon drained the last vestiges of on field passion from us, yet they were more successful than Ormond? Stein? Smith?

If you look at the Scotland team, you actually have a pretty decent set of players. There is no way you should be drawing at home to Macedonia, heck you should really be beating Serbia at home

I think that's half the problem. People think Scotland should be beating Macedonia and Serbia. I bet those two countries are saying exactly the same about Scotland.

super_realist wrote:As usual though Scottish expectations are too high and hopelessly unrealistic.

They should focus on getting third in qualifying for a few years, hoping for the odd result against higher ranked opposition and improving their coefficient over 3-4 qualifying tournaments.
It isn't feasably possible to qualify for any tournament now, or in the immediate future, and even if they did, they'd be even more of a laughing stock than the tatty munchers at this years Euro's.

Totally disagree Super, that's like playing for double bogeys hole after hole. I think the biggest issue is in the nations psyche and its Press/media led. You see/hear all them wee negative smart arse know it alls (e.g. Chick Young) who think they know best and try to fill our heads with utter tripe that we're somehow not good enough. Surprisingly you seem to take it all on board and believe it.

We're not in a good place at the moment but a sure fire way of staying there is to collectively adopt your pessimistic outlook.

Look at the Scotland squad for the Macedonia game:

Scotland
01 McGregor
02 Hutton
03 Dixon
04 Berra
05 Caldwell
08 Webster
07 Morrison (Rhodes - 66' )
16 Maloney
17 Forrest
09 Miller (Adam - 58' Booked )
15 Mackie (Naismith - 77' )

Substitutes

12 Marshall
21 Samson
13 G Hanley
22 Foster
06 Adam
18 Cowie
19 Dorrans
23 M Phillips
10 Snodgrass
11 Naismith
14 Rhodes
20 McCormack

That sqaud should be winning that game

How do you know? A team is nothing to do with the individuals involved but whether they are right for the system and tactics. England fall into that trap all the time, relying solely on big names.

Do you know anything about the Macedonian team? They might be pretty handy too? Unless you know everything about both teams, you can't say one should beat the other.

super_realist wrote:How do you know? A team is nothing to do with the individuals involved but whether they are right for the system and tactics. England fall into that trap all the time, relying solely on big names.

Do you know anything about the Macedonian team? They might be pretty handy too? Unless you know everything about both teams, you can't say one should beat the other.

So you're saying Scotland don't have the players to beat Macedonia at home?

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:As usual though Scottish expectations are too high and hopelessly unrealistic.

They should focus on getting third in qualifying for a few years, hoping for the odd result against higher ranked opposition and improving their coefficient over 3-4 qualifying tournaments.
It isn't feasably possible to qualify for any tournament now, or in the immediate future, and even if they did, they'd be even more of a laughing stock than the tatty munchers at this years Euro's.

Totally disagree Super, that's like playing for double bogeys hole after hole. I think the biggest issue is in the nations psyche and its Press/media led. You see/hear all them wee negative smart arse know it alls (e.g. Chick Young) who think they know best and try to fill our heads with utter tripe that we're somehow not good enough. Surprisingly you seem to take it all on board and believe it.

We're not in a good place at the moment but a sure fire way of staying there is to collectively adopt your pessimistic outlook.

That sort of over expectant attitude is precisely the sort of attitude that Scottish people criticise the English for.
Any team whether it's Brazil or Bhutan should not be concerned about results, just playing to their game plan and as well as possible. Scotland try to chase what they think they are owed, but no one is owed anything.

Olly wrote:

super_realist wrote:How do you know? A team is nothing to do with the individuals involved but whether they are right for the system and tactics. England fall into that trap all the time, relying solely on big names.

Do you know anything about the Macedonian team? They might be pretty handy too? Unless you know everything about both teams, you can't say one should beat the other.

So you're saying Scotland don't have the players to beat Macedonia at home?

I don't know if they do or if they don't, and unless you are an expert on Macedonian football then neither do you.

It's an easy trap to fall into, but teams like Scotland shouldn't be expecting to beat anyone, that's half the reason for their constant failure.

super_realist wrote:

Olly wrote:

super_realist wrote:How do you know? A team is nothing to do with the individuals involved but whether they are right for the system and tactics. England fall into that trap all the time, relying solely on big names.

Do you know anything about the Macedonian team? They might be pretty handy too? Unless you know everything about both teams, you can't say one should beat the other.

So you're saying Scotland don't have the players to beat Macedonia at home?

I don't know if they do or if they don't, and unless you are an expert on Macedonian football then neither do you.

It's an easy trap to fall into, but teams like Scotland shouldn't be expecting to beat anyone, that's half the reason for their constant failure.

So they shouldn't expect to beat Luxembourg in the next friendly?

In all honestly, I wouldn't. Scotland fans (not that I am one) shouldn't expect to win any game, why would they?

Ditto England, I think they expected to beat NI once. Guess what happened.

super_realist wrote:

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:As usual though Scottish expectations are too high and hopelessly unrealistic.

They should focus on getting third in qualifying for a few years, hoping for the odd result against higher ranked opposition and improving their coefficient over 3-4 qualifying tournaments.
It isn't feasably possible to qualify for any tournament now, or in the immediate future, and even if they did, they'd be even more of a laughing stock than the tatty munchers at this years Euro's.

Totally disagree Super, that's like playing for double bogeys hole after hole. I think the biggest issue is in the nations psyche and its Press/media led. You see/hear all them wee negative smart arse know it alls (e.g. Chick Young) who think they know best and try to fill our heads with utter tripe that we're somehow not good enough. Surprisingly you seem to take it all on board and believe it.

We're not in a good place at the moment but a sure fire way of staying there is to collectively adopt your pessimistic outlook.

That sort of over expectant attitude is precisely the sort of attitude that Scottish people criticise the English for.
Any team whether it's Brazil or Bhutan should not be concerned about results, just playing to their game plan and as well as possible. Scotland try to chase what they think they are owed, but no one is owed anything.

It's not expectancy Super it's needing to be positive and assertive to be competitive. A big part of the reason for the current gulf between Scotland and England is that they (England) actually do believe in themselves. We might see it as arrogance and laugh uncontrollably when they get slapped down but at the end of the day their self belief takes them a lot further than our collective negative whining.

It only takes them further because they have a deeper pool of talent, however like Scotland, England can't adjust to the required style required to play international football.

Scotland should forget about results and concentrate on starting to play well. Results will follow.

super_realist wrote:In all honestly, I wouldn't. Scotland fans (not that I am one) shouldn't expect to win any game, why would they?

Ditto England, I think they expected to beat NI once. Guess what happened.

You would have to be very pessimistic Scotland fan if you don't think Scotland will beat Luxembourg. They should expect to, whether they will is a different question altogether

You shouldn't go into any game in any sport expecting to win.

super_realist wrote:It only takes them further because they have a deeper pool of talent, however like Scotland, England can't adjust to the required style required to play international football.

Scotland should forget about results and concentrate on starting to play well. Results will follow.

Don't disagree with the last sentence, almost Rotellaesque

If we want to be good, as in really good we need to focus to trying to build a conveyor belt of talent out of proportion with our population. I'd start by going to study the Dutch, figure out what it is about their system that produces such a rich pool of talent from their relatively small population.
We need to better identify and encourage potential and develop it from an early age, some link with the schools would be crucial here as would their input. I remember in a whole school year at PE we'd do
6 weeks of rugby
3 weeks of football
4 weeks of badminton
4 weeks of dancing (diabolical liberty!!)
4 weeks of cross country
3 weeks of baseball
3 weeks of circuit training/gymnastics
3 weeks of swimming
Then athletics for the rest of the term
Rounded perhaps but a regime which provided PE teachers with a 3 week window to spot the next Kenny Dalgleish. I don't know if our school was typical but their needs to be more opportunity than that.

So you find the talent, nurture it and put it through the best development system you can conceive based on other successful models.
Of course all that has to be funded, where does that come from? The clubs? Ultimately they would be the beneficiaries as the talent started coming through.

I think Scotland's squad isn't that far away from the Republic of Ireland's in terms of talent, and they qualified for Euro 2012 and were a handball away from qualifying for the last World Cup.

Precisely JAS, football uses one of the least intelligent approaches to the game of any sport. I laugh when I see strikers looking fed up when they miss a chance. Do they really expect to score everything they hit? Totally unrealistic.

Why expect to win? You can't dictate if the other team are better.

Ok perhaps not "expect" to win but equally you shouldn't be expecting to lose.
Players in any sport should want to and relish the opportunity to compete and strive to give their best when doing so, if they do that, chances are they will be successful.

They should be thinking. "If I play as well as I can, they're going to have to play better to beat me". If you show anguish at a missed pass, shot, save etc, you give the opposition a lift.

Expectation is the root of all heartache.

Crimey wrote:I think Scotland's squad isn't that far away from the Republic of Ireland's in terms of talent, and they qualified for Euro 2012 and were a handball away from qualifying for the last World Cup.

And look how bad they were, perhaps the worst ever team to embarrass themselves in a major tournament.

super_realist wrote:

Crimey wrote:I think Scotland's squad isn't that far away from the Republic of Ireland's in terms of talent, and they qualified for Euro 2012 and were a handball away from qualifying for the last World Cup.

And look how bad they were, perhaps the worst ever team to embarrass themselves in a major tournament.

Doing badly at a major tournament is surely better than not qualifying at all though?

I'm not suggesting that Scotland should be reaching the latter stages of international tournaments, just that they should be at least closer to qualifying for them than they are at the moment with the players they have.

I'd suggest one of the main problems for the Scottish National team is that there are now far more relatively competitive teams.

30 years ago other than the top European and South American nations the standard was awful. Now pretty much every European nation can hold their own and there are also more of them with the split of the Soviet Union.

Add to that the fact many of the African Nations are now more than capable (rather than a joke such as Zaire) and Scotland are left pretty close to the bottom of the pile.

Hibbz..........at last someone with a bit of vision.
When Scotland were a strong team half of the world did not play football.
Scottish coaches took the game to places like Australia, NZ, Russia, South Africa and showed then how to play. Very much like the 1920's golf pros.
We are now a wee fish in a big pond yet we play countries such as the USA and still expect to win.

#strachanout

No, I'm joking. I think he'll do alright (well, he can't do much worse than 4-6-0). No chance of qualifying for anything but as long as Scotland can beat the teams they're expected to beat then I'll take that.