Why do so many posters want to end the LV= Cup...?

There has been a myriad of posts and threads suggesting that the LV= is unwanted.

It was formally the Anglo-Welsh Cup and previously the RFU's Cup Club Competition often sponsored by brewery's like Pilkington or Tetley's through the eighties and nineties.

In its modern format it has created a great competition where clubs can play their accademy players mixed with a few old pro's to blood and experience the talent for the future.

Often clubs pick more first team players and the oppositions kids give the big names a shock.

In my opinion the LV= Cup serves a fantastic purpose and should stay.

I think it should be mandated that all clubs/regions should play academy/squad players but thats not possible.

I also think that these are the only games that should be played during the 6 Nations.

It's a great comp if that's is done.

Play during IRB international windows and use it to blood academy lads into senior rugby by mixing academy players with non international or ex international seniors.

Great for club and country...!

I am between minds.

Sometimes I want to see the LV= gone, as I will always turn up to see my team play their home fixtures, and it has clashed (due to travelling to/from the match) with Welsh internationals and I have had to miss/record the international match, and avoid finding out the score.

Also back when it started out as the Powergen Anglo-Welsh Cup it was a serious competition, and the pools played each other side in their pool, and then there was the semi-finals day in Cardiff and the Final in Twickers. All the teams took it serious and it had some very entertaining games, which were pretty much all televised on the BBC. The new format where pool A plays pool B, and then the top teams go through is nonesence. A team can theoretically make the semi-final (albeit an away game) without winning a single match, and without even picking up a single bonus point, and a team that has won every match with a try bonus point can go out at the group stage. Couple that with the opposition feilding a team of players you have never heard of, and the fact that only one game a week is televised (and that is generally on SKY) make the non-die-hard fans stop giving two hoots.

On the other hand the it is nice to see the fringe players given a run out and from a Scarlets point of view it has been really useful, players like Andy Fenby, Ben Morgan, Kieran Murphy, Scott Williams, and Liam Williams (and more too) have all taken their chances in the LV= and used them to step up into the full team. And it is also nice to see that there is far more depth within your side that the average folk on here give you credit for.

Would it be more interesting if the regions/Jeff sides used the AIs/6Ns weekends to organise friendly matches (which the Lv= has turn out to be of late) against who they wish to play. This may help foster some real grudge matches between sides. For example Ospreys V Liecester, Scarlets V Bath (or Glaw theiving sods), Blues V London Welsh etc. The sides will still get their games to blood the youth (as maes says good for club and country) and the fans will get to see matches that have a bit more venom to them that training matches.

I'd maybe rather see the LV and BandI cup merged.

Keep it as Province/Region/City and English Prem 'A' sides, and Championship teams.

Should get the younger players a good number of games, Without people being disappointed that there a only few big names (they will alsways be a few bigger names in 'A' teams, older player in the give experience/coming back from injury or just in need of gametime),

In the latter stages you would see more senior players added as teams want to win it.

maestegmafia wrote:There has been a myriad of posts and threads suggesting that the LV= is unwanted.

It was formally the Anglo-Welsh Cup and previously the RFU's Cup Club Competition often sponsored by brewery's like Pilkington or Tetley's through the eighties and nineties.

I'll have a nice pint of Pilkington's please

Hersh - to be fair if you're imbibing Tetleys (not that anyone should since the bar stewards at Carlsberg shut the Leeds brewey and moved it to Nottingham) you would probably be using a Pilkington product.
On topic I'd say the major drawback of the LV is that the clubs want to charge full price for what's essentially a reserve team game - what might work would be to have it on 6Ns days with the game before the international which could then be shown on a big screen, add in some entertainment, beer tent and make it a proper day out.

Irish Londoner - the problem is during the 6Ns people want to be going to see their national side (home or away) which cuts on the crowd numbers, and also most people tend to want to sit down and watch both internationals, so unless the LV= were played 12 noon-ish then one way or another it would end up clashing with something.

Also most the LV= is done and dusted for the majority of teams pre-6Ns, ain't it the lsat group match, the semi and the final during 6Ns and the rest is in the AIs.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think it should be mandated that all clubs/regions should play academy/squad players but thats not possible.

I also think that these are the only games that should be played during the 6 Nations.

I don't really see the point of this. Why force everyone to field 'weak' sides? Let's say your team uses it to blood young players and they come across a team with almost their first team out. What's wrong with that? Your guys get a tough competition against top level opposition. Excellent learning oppotunity. And if they come across a 'weak' side they have a great opponitunity to play against even opponsition. Win win.

I also don't see the point of replacing it with another competition. The whole point of it at the moment is that it doesn't really matter. That way no-one really cares that it's on during the international window. Getting rid of it completely would have it's benefits for player rest but that would result in fewer games and that is almost never going to happen.

From an English point of view the season consists of 24 possible premiership weekends, 9 possible ERC weekends and 9 (max) international weekends. So that is 42 in total. If we had no league or ERC games during the internationals we would have a season that started in the 1st week in September and ended in the 3rd week in June (about the same time the international tour finished this year). This would leave us with about 10 week off season. Currently we have about 13 weeks I think. So to maintain the current break we would need to have at least 3 games during the international window (or reduce the premiership 10 teams ). However if we were able to introduce a maximum cap on the number of games a player could play AND enforce a player specific offseason length then you could do it. It would mean if you were in the final you won't be able to player you best guys in the first few games. I would prefer this as a system but don't really think it's feasible.

Well I think it depends who you ask.

the Welsh stopped taking it seriously once the prize money was reduced significantly. No insentive to qualify for that reason alone. From a Welsh perspective however this has allowed youth players to be blooded against a better standard of player than in the Welsh Semi Pro league.

For English sides the carrote is clear. Win and your in the HC which is lucrative in its own right. Now granted most English sides will still concentrate their focus on the league games but for those mid team table sides it really does give them something to play for.

Basically for some its a tool to expose players, and for others a chance to gain a backdoor to Europe and some silverware.

As a tournament as a whole though from a fans perspective, the format is overcomplicated and not better competition than either respective leagues (Aviva & Rabbo) nor Europe. It essentially makes it irrelevant. I still like it though as it gives us a chance to see the stars of tomorrow.

Personally I think that the WRU should also grant a place in the H-cup to a Welsh side that if a Welsh team wins it.

Therefore say if last season Dragons won it,

Ospreys and Scarlets would have Qualifiied through the league and Dragons through the Cup. If a Welsh team does not win it all 3 places decided by League, if one does, then its just top 2 in league, unless the team that won it is in top 2 then 3 place gets it.

It takes up space in an already packed season, that which only serves to weigh us down more for the international fixtures. It's sole purpose nowadays seems to be to blood youngsters, that which can equally be done in the B&I Cup and even in the Rabo for when you want to give them a healthy, educational dose of tougher rugby.

I've been frustrated in recent seasons at how long the youth is kept cotton-wrapped in the LV and how long it takes them to start getting experience at a higher level, that which impedes long-term youth development. There's only so much they can learn from playing against other development sides!

It's only very recently that more youngsters have started being fast-tracked into the Rabo more frequently (North, Cuthbert, Tipuric, Beck etc) and what do you know, that appears to have corresponded with a glut of greater Welsh national success. I believe regional representation ought to be restricted to the Rabo and Heino from now on, the rest is for the clubs.

Knowsit17 wrote:I've been frustrated in recent seasons at how long the youth is kept cotton-wrapped in the LV and how long it takes them to start getting experience at a higher level, that which impedes long-term youth development. There's only so much they can learn from playing against other development sides!

It's only very recently that more youngsters have started being fast-tracked into the Rabo more frequently (North, Cuthbert, Tipuric, Beck etc) and what do you know, that appears to have corresponded with a glut of greater Welsh national success. I believe regional representation ought to be restricted to the Rabo and Heino from now on, the rest is for the clubs.

I am a bit confused what you mean here boss, the LV= has only really been a training competition for the last two or three seasons, and in that time we have seen numerous young players being thrown straight (or straight enough) into the full squad (for Rabo Amlin/HEC).

For the WRU I would have it as the team that makes it the furthest gets a HC place. It might be hard for Dargons to win it but not to be the longest lasting team

Brendan wrote:For the WRU I would have it as the team that makes it the furthest gets a HC place. It might be hard for Dargons to win it but not to be the longest lasting team

There is no sane way you can put HEC qualification on a competition where a team can make the semi-final without winning a single game or picking up a single bonus point in four matches, and a team who win every match with a bonus point can fail to get out of the groups stages.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:I've been frustrated in recent seasons at how long the youth is kept cotton-wrapped in the LV and how long it takes them to start getting experience at a higher level, that which impedes long-term youth development. There's only so much they can learn from playing against other development sides!

It's only very recently that more youngsters have started being fast-tracked into the Rabo more frequently (North, Cuthbert, Tipuric, Beck etc) and what do you know, that appears to have corresponded with a glut of greater Welsh national success. I believe regional representation ought to be restricted to the Rabo and Heino from now on, the rest is for the clubs.

I am a bit confused what you mean here boss, the LV= has only really been a training competition for the last two or three seasons, and in that time we have seen numerous young players being thrown straight (or straight enough) into the full squad (for Rabo Amlin/HEC).

Steven Shingler was quite a notorious case in my mind. An entire season playing beautifully for Llanelli and his only reward that season was LV gametime. Maybe he wouldn't have left if the coaching staff had taken him more seriously and given him a few first-team appearances in the Rabo. As it is LI came calling, promising more competitive gametime aside from the higher pay package, and next thing you know he's gone and starting more regularly. Can hardly blame the lad in retrospect. Rather tactless of Nige imo, part of the reason why I'm glad he's gone now.

Knowsit - he had Priestland, Jones and Newton in front of him. Also he was offered a contract, but the money London Irish offered was beyond belief (40K ot 45K for a young inexperienced player).

I'm aware he was offered a contract and I'd like to think nothing more could have been done. But can we truthfully say it was all down to the money? Probably considering Shingler's gestures and u-turns since but my point is that in theory, could it not have been the case that Shingler noticed that despite his good work that season he was mainly being ignored as a first-team contender by the staff in contrast to LI's offer of more high standard appearances, which they have since delivered on?

Newton has yet to look anything special to me and Jones has been on the slide for the past year. Especially when you take into account Priestland's patchy current form, there's a chance that Shingler could have been first choice at present if he'd stayed. Sometimes it's worth it for the sake of strength in depth to show a player that he'll get fair consideration, something I felt Nige didn't do.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Brendan wrote:For the WRU I would have it as the team that makes it the furthest gets a HC place. It might be hard for Dargons to win it but not to be the longest lasting team

There is no sane way you can put HEC qualification on a competition where a team can make the semi-final without winning a single game or picking up a single bonus point in four matches, and a team who win every match with a bonus point can fail to get out of the groups stages.

Sorry didn't realize the set up was so messed up. Could you say they have to make a final.

I think that in Ireland it is 99% certain that Leinster, Munster and Ulster will be the 3 HC places. If say the winner of the interpro matches won a HC spot Connacht would stand a decent chance of getting a HC spot. I also think it does not harm to give each competion prize worth winning not just there for money and player experience

Brendan, you would be better giving a HEC slot to the team that have the best record against the other welsh sides over the years (because Scarlets are unbeaten by welsh opposition since Dec 27th 2010).

I think that for the welsh and Irish have the first three quailify means there is no real worry by the top three teams but if it came down to the mini national league or something else it might spice it up a little

The problem with the LV cup is that it is a serious competition but isn't taken seriously by the teams in it.
It needs to be scraped and an official development/a league needs to be formed or something similar.

It really is an embarrassment imo

gowales wrote:The problem with the LV cup is that it is a serious competition but isn't taken seriously by the teams in it.
It needs to be scraped and an official development/a league needs to be formed or something similar.

It really is an embarrassment imo

It was a serious competition, it had serious groups (that made logical sense), it had a double header as a semi-final, and it was run during the noramal season (not wedge into international windows). It is no longer that, because the organisers have turned it into a developement competition. They even give a prize tot he Breakthrough player, not the star of the tournament, but the breakthrough player, that says to me it is now officially seen as a second string tournament.

Interesting, i think the teams started to treat it as a development comp before the organisers did though but your point still stands.

It's never been a serious competition. Most sides have always put in weak sides. Or used it to bring players back from injury.

But what is the point of scrapping it and making a new development competition? I don't understand the logic. Either scrap it completely and do without the money or leave it as it is.

I meant create a youth development competition similar to the Toyota Cup in the NRL.

Irish Londoner wrote:Hersh - to be fair if you're imbibing Tetleys (not that anyone should since the bar stewards at Carlsberg shut the Leeds brewey and moved it to Nottingham) you would probably be using a Pilkington product.
On topic I'd say the major drawback of the LV is that the clubs want to charge full price for what's essentially a reserve team game - what might work would be to have it on 6Ns days with the game before the international which could then be shown on a big
screen, add in some entertainment, beer tent and make it a proper day out.

IL, which teams charge full price? As far as I was aware most have been offering discounts on LV games for a few years. This is now the 3rd season the LV is included in the ST package at Glaws and I know we were late to catch on to this.

Personally, I feel it should return to respective nations cups. I would rather see Glaws playing the likes of the Pirates or Bristol and this would help develop the game more in each country.

gowales wrote:I meant create a youth development competition similar to the Toyota Cup in the NRL.

The LV= is good because it isn't just a youth competition. Mix of old heads and young together, youngsters need the step between academy rugby and top flight, the LV= helps.

I like it because it gives us a chance to see the English teams and gives us another Welsh derby. The Ospreys seem to often get the Dragons.

I think it's a fun competition.

HammerofThunor wrote:It's never been a serious competition. Most sides have always put in weak sides. Or used it to bring players back from injury.

Not true. The first three or four seasons were pretty full on. Wasps V Scarlets (final) featured two full strength sides, then both Leicester V Ospreys finals the following two seasons were pretty serious to me.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It's never been a serious competition. Most sides have always put in weak sides. Or used it to bring players back from injury.

Not true. The first three or four seasons were pretty full on. Wasps V Scarlets (final) featured two full strength sides, then both Leicester V Ospreys finals the following two seasons were pretty serious to me.

I agree...

Last season the Premiership teams were fielding first choice teams in many matches... Heres the two teams from Saints vs O's that I saw at the Brewery in Bridgend last year. Ospreys backline is all youth U20s bar Parker.

Ospreys:
R Jones; Prydie, John, Parker, E Walker; Morgan, Habberfield, Griffiths, Baldwin, Jarvis, Smith, Evans, King, Lewis, Allan.
Replacements: Phillips for R. Jones (70), Price for John (63), Grabham for Habberfield (60), D. Jones for Griffiths (50), M. Davies for Baldwin (60), Rees for Jarvis (50), Kelly for Evans (77), O'Toole for Lewis (60)

Northampton:
Foden; Ashton, Armstrong, Downey, Artemyev; Lamb, Dickson; Tonga'uiha, Hartley, Doran-Jones, Lawes, Sorenson, Clark, Wood, Wilson.
Replacements: Clarke for Downey (59), Myler for Lamb (63), Roberts for Dickson (64), Haywood for Hartley (62), Mercey for Doran-Jones (59), Manoa for Lawes (62), Dowson for Wilson (59).

maestegmafia wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It's never been a serious competition. Most sides have always put in weak sides. Or used it to bring players back from injury.

Not true. The first three or four seasons were pretty full on. Wasps V Scarlets (final) featured two full strength sides, then both Leicester V Ospreys finals the following two seasons were pretty serious to me.

I agree...

Last season the Premiership teams were fielding first choice teams in many matches... Heres the two teams from Saints vs O's that I saw at the Brewery in Bridgend last year. Ospreys backline is all youth U20s bar Parker.

Ospreys:
R Jones; Prydie, John, Parker, E Walker; Morgan, Habberfield, Griffiths, Baldwin, Jarvis, Smith, Evans, King, Lewis, Allan.
Replacements: Phillips for R. Jones (70), Price for John (63), Grabham for Habberfield (60), D. Jones for Griffiths (50), M. Davies for Baldwin (60), Rees for Jarvis (50), Kelly for Evans (77), O'Toole for Lewis (60)

Northampton:
Foden; Ashton, Armstrong, Downey, Artemyev; Lamb, Dickson; Tonga'uiha, Hartley, Doran-Jones, Lawes, Sorenson, Clark, Wood, Wilson.
Replacements: Clarke for Downey (59), Myler for Lamb (63), Roberts for Dickson (64), Haywood for Hartley (62), Mercey for Doran-Jones (59), Manoa for Lawes (62), Dowson for Wilson (59).

I'd refute that as it uses singular case of representing a an instance to 'prove' a false generalisation.

Personally I'd drop the LV and replace it with an All-English Jeff/Championship Cup.

ed - on research that was the weekend of 20/10/11 - straight after the RWC when Saints were as I recall 9/10th in the league and were desperate to play as a team. Tigers were 11th at the time with 11 injuries and 12 returnees they played as strong team as well. Wales may well have still been in NZ.

Tigers subsequently played all matches up to the semis with predominantly second strings. In the final they did play a stronger, but by no means a full-strength side. But honestly, off-hand I can't recall who against - except they were English.

Portnoy wrote:
I'd refute that as it uses singular case of representing a an instance to 'prove' a false generalisation.

It was an example, one I chose as it was a game I attended. There are plenty of others last season

Go on then. I need enlightening...

Maes - I was not saying that teams of feilded recently have been full strength. I was saying that back when the competition started the first few seasons were full teams.

Scarlet, they were finals. What used to happen in the past (generally) was no-one gave a Poopie until the knock-out stages. Then the prize money was up for grabs (and the guaranteed HEC spot for the English).

Funnily enough the strongest teams in the pools seem to happen every four years. Leicester against the Blues in 2007, welcoming their World Cup players back. I seem to remember that Saints game was when they get their best back and they were on a terrible run. I also seem to remember it drawing some attention due to the strength of it. Bath also fielded a strong team because it was their best chance of HEC qualification. But none of this makes it a strong competition but then I don't want it to be one. I WANT it to be a rehabilitation league, a blooding league, etc.

HammerofThunor wrote:Scarlet, they were finals. What used to happen in the past (generally) was no-one gave a Poopie until the knock-out stages. Then the prize money was up for grabs (and the guaranteed HEC spot for the English).

Funnily enough the strongest teams in the pools seem to happen every four years. Leicester against the Blues in 2007, welcoming their World Cup players back. I seem to remember that Saints game was when they get their best back and they were on a terrible run. I also seem to remember it drawing some attention due to the strength of it. Bath also fielded a strong team because it was their best chance of HEC qualification. But none of this makes it a strong competition but then I don't want it to be one. I WANT it to be a rehabilitation league, a blooding league, etc.

Thanks for that, I hadn't had the time to note which games were where AP teams were fielding strong teams.

The HEC qualification is a larger incentive for them. In retrospective i thought the young Ospreys and Dragons put a good performance in against the strong first choice Saints and Wasps teams they faced last year. They would have gained a great deal from that.

This comp will always have teams of varying ability due to its nature, but that is a positive not a negative.