What are the barriers to a Lions clean sweep?

OZ must feel they are at a pretty ebb right now coming to the Saffer contests in the 4Ns (plus Blesidloe III to come up)

I'd say that pretty much they'd, in a nutshell, have to perform exceptionally well on their AI tour (with or without Deans) not to implode completely as a unified outfit and just wave the white flag.

Probably not so the teams playing our dirt-trackers though.

Clean sweep?

when was te last time the British and Irish Lions had a clean sweep?

You're talking of a series that is 10 months away.

Injuries to Lions players.
The fact that it is an away series.
Australia might have a new coach.
Their players might all be in form.
The Lions players might be out of form.
The pace of the game.

The tour is stilla way off and you are being very presumptuous in my opinion.

Australia have won 3 games against Wales and lost 2 games against NZ. Having lost 14 of their last 17 games against NZ, this shouldn't come as a surprise. Those are quite good statistics though for a lot of other countries playing NZ.

Hold those horses and come back you, you've jumped the gun. How about we sit out the end of the rugby calendar year for Australia and then see where they're at then?

Biltong wrote:Clean sweep?

when was te last time the British and Irish Lions had a clean sweep?

You're talking of a series that is 10 months away.

Injuries to Lions players.
The fact that it is an away series.
Australia might have a new coach.
Their players might all be in form.
The Lions players might be out of form.
The pace of the game.

Absolutely Biltong. The OP is about the barriers.

Injuries to Lions players - key players and are imponderables for both sides - That is equal.
The fact that it is an away series. The big hand over the Lions over four nations?
Australia might have a new coach. Indeed. One who has little or no chance to make an impression.
Their players might all be in form. Yes. That might be good enough.
The Lions players might be out of form. Same argument.
The pace of the game. all these factors come into account. The Lions may take all the pace out of the games. No possession, any potential pace has to be burned in the latent heat of the post-match smoke. You'd understand that as a Saffer.

The biggest barrier at the moment is that the series is so far away. We don't even know the Lions squad, the coaching staff, the form players and the injuries and the same applies to Australia. That kind of information is generally useful in order to make a prediction.

The timing is for me the biggest issue:

May 18th - Heineken Cup Final

May 25th - Rabo Final

May 25th - Premiership Final

Then on May 26th the Lions depart for Australia to play 10 matches over the next 6 weeks.

If a player in involved in both domestic and European Cup finals then they will find it very hard to get prepared mentally and physically.

This for me is the biggest barrier the Lions face.

We may see the bigger players of the "smaller" teams get a look in.

red_stag wrote:The timing is for me the biggest issue:

May 18th - Heineken Cup Final

May 25th - Rabo Final

May 25th - Premiership Final

Then on May 26th the Lions depart for Australia to play 10 matches over the next 6 weeks.

If a player in involved in both domestic and European Cup finals then they will find it very hard to get prepared mentally and physically.

This for me is the biggest barrier the Lions face.

We may see the bigger players of the "smaller" teams get a look in.

Just send Wales then Saggy. Unencumbered by finals and fired up with a will to win next time.

I wouldn't care as it's well down the list of my rugby priorities...

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:The timing is for me the biggest issue:

May 18th - Heineken Cup Final

May 25th - Rabo Final

May 25th - Premiership Final

Then on May 26th the Lions depart for Australia to play 10 matches over the next 6 weeks.

If a player in involved in both domestic and European Cup finals then they will find it very hard to get prepared mentally and physically.

This for me is the biggest barrier the Lions face.

We may see the bigger players of the "smaller" teams get a look in.

Just send Wales then Saggy. Unencumbered by finals and fired up with a will to win next time.

I wouldn't care as it's well down the list of my rugby priorities...

Who won the Rabbo last year???

Whats the barriers to a Lions clean sweep, eh....... Australia

Lions teams to me always appear to have the same barrier..

The biggest problem is to get players from four different countries going in the same direction and at the same time conforming to the same game plan, Lions teams play better when one country dominates the selections.

In terms of their opposition we wont know anything until we see whos performing in next years super xv.

maestegmafia wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:The timing is for me the biggest issue:

May 18th - Heineken Cup Final

May 25th - Rabo Final

May 25th - Premiership Final

Then on May 26th the Lions depart for Australia to play 10 matches over the next 6 weeks.

If a player in involved in both domestic and European Cup finals then they will find it very hard to get prepared mentally and physically.

This for me is the biggest barrier the Lions face.

We may see the bigger players of the "smaller" teams get a look in.

Just send Wales then Saggy. Unencumbered by finals and fired up with a will to win next time.

I wouldn't care as it's well down the list of my rugby priorities...

Who won the Rabbo last year???

I wouldn't care as it's well down the list of my rugby priorities...

Talent and Composure.

Deans
Horwill
Pocock
Higgenbottom
Genia
Cooper
JOC
Ashley Cooper
Beale
Ioane

History tells us consistently that the Lions rarely win a series. We shouldn't get too over excited. Although the aussies look to be at a particularly low ebb at the moment. The Lions beating a weak aussie team won't be anything to crow about.

In a nutshell, as a Brit, I'd rather play Australia right now than SA or NZ.
That said, talk of a clean sweep are arrogant and presumptous (sp?)

B&IL success in Oz will only be by a narrow margin.

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:The timing is for me the biggest issue:

May 18th - Heineken Cup Final

May 25th - Rabo Final

May 25th - Premiership Final

Then on May 26th the Lions depart for Australia to play 10 matches over the next 6 weeks.

If a player in involved in both domestic and European Cup finals then they will find it very hard to get prepared mentally and physically.

This for me is the biggest barrier the Lions face.

We may see the bigger players of the "smaller" teams get a look in.

Just send Wales then Saggy. Unencumbered by finals and fired up with a will to win next time.

I wouldn't care as it's well down the list of my rugby priorities...

+1

Can't stand the Lions. Anachronistic waste of time.

Jimpy,

But the Lions continues to get more and more popular. I would say it has found a new lease of life in the modern game.

The players love it, the media love it, the fans love it and it makes money. I don't understand how it is anachronistic or a waste of time.

Any competition can be described as a waste of time. Its all about priorities and I think its a great initiative.

There are people who don't like it because the Lions don't do well which is just throwing toys out of the pram (BTW not saying that this is your reason for not liking it).

I love the british and irish lions tours, it is something different and creates a total different vibe.

It is the one time when the home nations stand together and form a collective (most do anyway)

I would love it if OZ, SA and NZ reciprocated with a similar tour. 4 tests one against each nation.

Biltong the other things I am a fan of are the:

- Countries doing multiple test tours - e.g. Wales tours Australia, England tours South Africa etc for three tests.

- Midweek games that involve countries v clubs. So we had SA v Leicester Tigers, NZ v Munster, Aus v Munster, Ulster v Portugal etc.

I just don't buy into it. All it really achieves is to break already knackered club players when they should be resting in a sick making display of false 'Bonhomme' in a tour where they are ritually humiliated by the opposition.

Its a tradition we don't need in my opinion, the game has moved on and there's precious little time, and players too valuable a resource to waste flogging this dead horse.

I would happily sacrifice some of the bloated club game to keep the Lions.

Whether people agree with the concept or not I have never heard anyone claim that it makes them sick to watch. The only Lions tour I can ever recall where there was humiliation involved was in 2005.

Its 1997 since the Lions last won a series, you do the maths...

red_stag wrote:Biltong the other things I am a fan of are the:

- Countries doing multiple test tours - e.g. Wales tours Australia, England tours South Africa etc for three tests.

- Midweek games that involve countries v clubs. So we had SA v Leicester Tigers, NZ v Munster, Aus v Munster, Ulster v Portugal etc.

Absolutely Stag, I much prefer test series above one off tests. I would be an advocate of having bi annual six nations and fou nations tournamnets with test series for the rest of the calendar.

Jimpy wrote:Its 1997 since the Lions last won a series, you do the maths...

Jimpy, I know they haven't won a test series since then. But apart from the 2005 series I can't see what your problem is. I certainly don't see how they were "ritually humiliated".

red_stag wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Its 1997 since the Lions last won a series, you do the maths...

Jimpy, I know they haven't won a test series since then. But apart from the 2005 series I can't see what your problem is. I certainly don't see how they were "ritually humiliated".

There's nowt so blind as will not see.

Look, its just an opinion, i'm clearly in a minority. However, I don't care.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree it is.

englandglory4ever wrote:History tells us consistently that the Lions rarely win a series. We shouldn't get too over excited. Although the aussies look to be at a particularly low ebb at the moment. The Lions beating a weak aussie team won't be anything to crow about.

In the past, Lions tours also tended to coincide with that 3N hitting a very good generation and great form. This is the first time that I can remember that the Lions will be heading to a country whose team (while still extremely talented) is inconsistent and well below their usual expectations of performance*.

*I know they recently won the 3Ns and got the semi-final of the RWC but the 3Ns was tempered with NZ managing players for the RWC and Oz didn't set the world alight in their run in the RWC.

AUS is already preparing for the Lions.

It was announced that the first round of next years SuperXV will start a week earlier for the AUS teams thus allowing them extra prep time leading to the Lions tour.

'Super Rugby will start a week earlier in 2013 so that two Australian derbies can be played.
This will allow the Australians to break early ahead of the June Test window and have an extra week’s preparation for their three-Test series against the British & Irish Lions.

The disruption for the New Zealand and South African teams should be minimal.

‘We are looking to start that Australian conference a week earlier which, in actual fact, means two games between their sides,’ said Sanzar boss Greg Peters. ‘It’s not an ideal situation but it’s a compromise that all three Sanzar countries and Sanzar have come to because it’s such an important tour.’'

Alos, talk of AUS being at a low point is overdone. Perhaps a low point for their own lofty standards but not really for othee teams outside of the big three. Rest assured, come test one next year the AUS starting 15 will be extremely strong with probably a host of players able to make the Lions 15.

Australia, imo, is going back apace under Dingo Deans who can't realistically be sacked in the 4Ns and as the interim between the 4Ns and the AIs is so minuscule - that's at the very least unlikely.

So when and how's a new Australia going to be built?

Last week's performance was dismal not because of the opposition away from home (who by their standards were woeful). But that could have gone on for another hour and it would have been a surprise if Oz had got within a whisper of a scoring chance - like the previous 80 minutes.

On the Lions' behalf the gelling of the team and the factions inherent in the B&I camps to my mind is the most dangerous.

Then the impartiality of the coach.

Then the dangers of picking players on reputation rather than convincing merit (the last hurrah syndrome).

That's why I'd prefer a neutral (i.e. non-current B&I national coach like PSA, Schmidt, O'Shea, Cockerill, Mallinder etc.)

I think people are being potentially to hard on Deans. I'm not sure he is as bad as everyone thinks. I'm not sure it's a lay down misere for the Lions. Why? Here's some thoughts.

1. His overall record is ok and comparable with other coaches (outside NZ). His record against top nations (NZ, Aus, SA, Eng, france and Lions) is as good as or better than all top professional coaches outside NZ, with the exception of Rod McQueen.

2. His record against NZ is poor. The same is true for almost all professional coaches. Rod McQueen is the only one to have more wins than losses. His record is the same as Woodwards, LaPorts etc, although a little behind the likes of Jones and Mallet.

3. Deans coached Austalain sides have won more games than they have lost against SA, France, England, Wales and Ireland.

4. His record against SA and France are better than any professional Australian coach (and most others - Mallet also had a 100% record against France, and I haven't looked at the NZ coaches).

5. He has only lost 4 home games against non NZ teams in Australia. Samoa and Scotland are aberrations (weak teams playing for experience and to give 1st choice players recovery time - welcome to modern rugby) and injury plagued Australian sides lost to SA in Perth (Little Pretoria - virtually an away game for Australia) and England.

6. Under Deans Australia have cemented their position at No 2 in the world.

The point being: Australia is still the no 2 side, their record is good and they are still a threat to the Lions.

The point being: Australia is still the no 2 side, their record is good and they are still a threat to the Lions.

Best get that in early as the claim may be untrue this time tomorrow.

I agree BC. It seems the June series has been forgotten and people are judging Australia based on their performance against NZ which doesn't make for favourable comparisons. Plenty of rugby still to be played for Australia and the November tour should see the return from injury for a good number of frontline players.

No NH team could beat Wales this year but Australia made a habit out of it. By no means was it a convincing sweep but no means was Wales' Grand Slam a convincing clean sweep as they had to dig deep and fight their way out of precarious positions.

Australia looked clueless in attack against NZ. They don't have that mental block with other teams in that regard. Save your Lions predictions based on Wallaby form until the end of the autumn tour. That'll give you a much better overall picture.

No games this weekend Portnoy so I'm afraid they're number 2 for at least another week.

I sincerely doubt comparing australia's perfromances against the All BLacks can provide a clue as to where they are going.

Forget all the criticism for a moment.

Just look at the realities, they don't have Horwill, they now don't have Pocock and O'Connor has been out the whole season.

Their forwards are struggling against an awesome All Black pack which in tunr puts their attack on the back foot.

Barnes is not as creative as Cooper who is not 100%, Genia is struggling behind his pack and Beale is having a nigthmare season.

If Australia get Pocock and Horwill back, and a few of their newbies in the pack settle with the right combinations, their pack will once again gain at least parity. That in turn will give them more opportunity to attack with less pressure.

Then combine an on form, Genia, Cooper, Barnes, AAC, Mitchell, IOane and Beale and all of a sudden the whole dynamics change.

Australia doesn't have enough depth, and their star players are out of form.

That is the only summation that can be made thus far.

Think back to last year, their players were on song, and there weren't injuries.

We forget too easily and judge too soon.

Agreed it does expose the fag-paper depth of Australia's squad Biltong.

But Dingo will be held responsible for it.

Palu is also instrumental. Higganbotham doesn't convince me at 8. I think he's better at 6 and then Deans can get rid of Dennis the non-menace.

If NZ had the same amount of injuries to say Woodcock, Mealamu, Whitelock, Read, McCaw, Nonu, Jane and if Smith, Carter and Dagg were out of form, I'd dare say we'd be below par as well. I don't think injuries should be used as an excuse but it is worth pointing out why Australia is not gelling at the moment.

Just in June AUS beat Wales 3 - 0 in a serier with a team far from their ideal atarting 15.

Why is the so much pressure on Deans?

Leading to the 07 WC the Boks went down 49 - 0 to AUS. Losing 22 - 0 to the All Blacks is not the end of the world especially considering the amount of players AUS are missing.

No need to stress.

Portnoy wrote:

The point being: Australia is still the no 2 side, their record is good and they are still a threat to the Lions.

Best get that in early as the claim may be untrue this time tomorrow.

The rankings are't going to change tomorrow, no-one's playing . Now next week OTOH ...

Another thing to consider is that we are at the start of another 4 year world cup cycle. NZ, Australia and South Africa are all modifying their style with varying degrees of success.

I think Deans has spent quite a bit of time on defense and set piece. Part of that might be just bring new players into the fold. The Wallabies look a bit dysfunctional on attack. I wonder if that will come right with time. I can't imagine that it wont.