Impartiality in the Lions.

First topic message reminder :

I don't know if this has ever been done before, but here goes.

Since Gatt's has been announced as the Lions head coach there is a lot of players names being banded about as shoe ins, and talk of 50-50 calls going Wales' way in terms of squad selection.

I know there is a lot of Rugby to be played before then but lets just say for arguments sake the tour was leaving as scheduled so injured players can be picked and players out of form can come good.

Pick your test XXII. One condition...... you cannot pick anyone from your nation in your test team.

This will hopefully negate national bias and through the collated names we should get a squad that the best players rise to the top.

It is quite tough to do this so being Scottish here is my Lions Test XXII. In brackets are players who I would have liked to pick from my country to play in the Lions test squad.

1. Cian Healy (I)
2. Rory Best (I) (Ross Ford)
3. Dan Cole (E)
4. Alan-Wyn Jones (W) (Richie Gray)
5. Paul O'Connell (I)
6. Steven Ferris (I)
7. Sam Warburton (W) (Ross Rennie)
8. Sean O'Brien (I)

9. Ben Youngs (E)
10. Toby Flood (E)
11. Tommy Bowe (I) (Tim MacVisser)
12. Scott Williams (W)
13. Johnathon Davies (W)
14. George North (W)
15. Ben Foden (E)

16. Adam Jones (W) 17. Dylan Heartley (E) 18. Luke Charteris (W) 19. Tom Croft (E) 20. Danny Care (E) 21. Johnny Sexton (I) 22. Rob Kearney (I)

As I said harder than it looks. The backrow is particularly hard.

So give it a bash and we'll see what names come up most often.

Cheq Chjw

Good coaching is good theft! If a tactic works for someone use it until it stops being effective, then go and steal someone elses tactic!!

Fly

Ye I imagine the schedules and programmes are being written as we speak for lions possibles to be in great shape for the plane ride, as is also calls being made for info on what certain players can do to enhance their chances etc...

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cheq Chjw

Good coaching is good theft! If a tactic works for someone use it until it stops being effective, then go and steal someone elses tactic!!

Ha, generally you're right there blues. The only problem with that is if everyone does it, where do the new ideas come from?!

Chjw131 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cheq Chjw

Good coaching is good theft! If a tactic works for someone use it until it stops being effective, then go and steal someone elses tactic!!

Ha, generally you're right there blues. The only problem with that is if everyone does it, where do the new ideas come from?!

New Zealand

Which is probably why they are actually good at rugby!

Chequered

Sadly mate you are absolutely spot on!!

For all the huffing and puffing we do in the NH about innovation, and new techniques it generally tends to be the next new genius is the guy who's brought the next NZ technique here the quickest!

Partly the reason I did have a little respect for MJ, he looked at different sports and outside the box for originality, unfortunately he found dead ends and bad decisions but his idea was right!

I have met very few people, including some top coaches in the NH who are willing to actually think for themselves, take a look at the game, and what people are doing right now and consider ways to beat it. Instead they regurgetate ideas they see from others, and things tought to them by even less well prepared people....

But all is bright, I am on a mission...

New Zealand is like a big computer company. Let's call them Microsoft (I moved to Apple a good few years ago, a lot of money and a broken machine and lost data! - so I'm not using them as the model! )

New Zealand are the Microsoft of tactics then. The product they are marketing today as the fastest, the smoothest, the most high definition of anything yet on the market, the prime product of its generation........... is really technology that is 5 to 10 years behind what they are truly working on at present in the bunkers.

The All Blacks are probably already perfecting their tactics for two years down the line behind closed doors, ready to unleash on a poor, unfortunate, unknowing world that has just felt it was finally catching up. Cruel buggers.

SecretFly wrote:New Zealand is like a big computer company. Let's call them Microsoft (I moved to Apple a good few years ago, a lot of money and a broken machine and lost data! - so I'm not using them as the model! )

New Zealand are the Microsoft of tactics then. The product they are marketing today as the fastest, the smoothest, the most high definition of anything yet on the market, the prime product of its generation........... is really technology that is 5 to 10 years behind what they are truly working on at present in the bunkers.

The All Blacks are probably already perfecting their tactics for two years down the line behind closed doors, ready to unleash on a poor, unfortunate, unknowing world that has just felt it was finally catching up. Cruel buggers.

Sadly the odd project/product from the others shines for a small while, and near matches microsoft, but inevitably the status quo is resumed.

I imagine that being a Wales supporter is like converting to apple, they spend a little while being hyped up, promise the world and then CRASH!

SecretFly wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly

I'd take that one step further and by next 6N Gatland will have had a hand in certain players management techniques. I'd say Gatland will have an idea of who he wants now, and a core of players will be selected by the 6N and told how to effective manage their workload etc...

I agree Bluesman. The foundation players (players who might not actually get to Australia but who will be in his preliminary thoughts even now) will be advised on workload: or rather - to be politically corrrect - they'll have little chats with Lions officials about ideas on how best to arrive at Lions departure in best condition possible, without it of course directly and seriously impacting on or seriously compromising the demands of the players' clubs or nations)

His success in that so far is Toulon telling him to get fcked if he thinks they are releasing their players

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

SecretFly wrote:New Zealand is like a big computer company. Let's call them Microsoft (I moved to Apple a good few years ago, a lot of money and a broken machine and lost data! - so I'm not using them as the model! )

New Zealand are the Microsoft of tactics then. The product they are marketing today as the fastest, the smoothest, the most high definition of anything yet on the market, the prime product of its generation........... is really technology that is 5 to 10 years behind what they are truly working on at present in the bunkers.

The All Blacks are probably already perfecting their tactics for two years down the line behind closed doors, ready to unleash on a poor, unfortunate, unknowing world that has just felt it was finally catching up. Cruel buggers.

Taking this tangent did you see Samsung are paying off the $Billion fine they got for pinching apples technology in 5 cent coins. Oh that Korean sense of humour!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

SecretFly wrote:New Zealand is like a big computer company. Let's call them Microsoft (I moved to Apple a good few years ago, a lot of money and a broken machine and lost data! - so I'm not using them as the model! )

New Zealand are the Microsoft of tactics then. The product they are marketing today as the fastest, the smoothest, the most high definition of anything yet on the market, the prime product of its generation........... is really technology that is 5 to 10 years behind what they are truly working on at present in the bunkers.

The All Blacks are probably already perfecting their tactics for two years down the line behind closed doors, ready to unleash on a poor, unfortunate, unknowing world that has just felt it was finally catching up. Cruel buggers.

Taking this tangent did you see Samsung are paying off the $Billion fine they got for pinching apples technology in 5 cent coins. Oh that Korean sense of humour!

Great story. Yahoo News even fell for it too . Sadly: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/aug/29/apple-samsung-trucks-nickels-fake

Its more believable than Hershs quade cooper story

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote: Its more believable than Hershs quade cooper story

Do you think Berrick Barnes is off-contract soon?

Chjw131 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:My theory is that Nonu and Robert's success at 12 has led other nations to think you need a boshy 12. They are wrong

I would agree entirely Chequered, even Quins are doing it! I'm not saying it's the wrong way to play, but my preference would be for a bit more vision and awareness at 12, with either a heavier duty winger or 13.

Australia are trying to go down that road, perhaps more by default than anything else but it's got potential. The Rebels were also playing a 10/12 playing combo and Tigers do it more so over here in the Jeff with Allen at 12. We all know that if 36 can progress and develop some consistency he could be the answer as he combines that Frans Steyn sort of physicality with the pass, vision and kicking game. In fact I think SA could use F Steyn to much better effect with a proper FH.

Someone did say it's a ripe position for a bolter, but to my mind I don't think it's a position Gatland will take. He'll have a Wales-esque plan, which is fine, but that will revolve around Roberts/JD2 in midfield I believe. I can't see someone like 36 or Scott getting a starting jersey at 12. Doesn't Jonathan Davies play 12? That might be a better fit for a Lions style.

The best 12s definitely have vision and awareness, but a significant physical threat is equally important. Over the last decade or so the quality of defences, and covering forwards from breakdowns & setpieces have shown that principally playmaking 12s (like Australia's former regular, Giteau) aren't consistently enough able to give their sides an edge. Two playmakers in the 10-12 channel without that physicality makes it easier for defences to shut their effectiveness down. A quality creative 10 is better served and given more options in how to bring in his backline with a go to player outside him to hold defences or tidy things up when under pressure (if you have a lesser 10, demands are a bit different). I'm far less a fan of a bosher at 13, it's in that extra space out wide that you really need someone with excellent timing & creative running angles to maximise the situation and carve defences up.

So what youre saying is that Billy Twelvetrees IS the best IC in the world?

My Guess is that the selection team will just start by picking the best 3 players in each position - then whittle down the selection.
So here it goes -

1. Healy, Gethin, Corbisiero
2. Best, Hartley, Reese
3. A.Jones, Cole, M.Ross
4. Grey, I.Evans, Parling,
5.O'Connell, Kellock, Lawes
6. Ferris, Lydiate, O'Brien
7. Warburton, Robshaw, Haskell
8. Denton, Felatu, Heaslip

9. Phillips, Youngs, Care
10. Sexton, Flood, Priestland
11. Ashton, Bowe, Visser??
12. Tuilagi, Roberts, Max Evans
13. JD2, BOD, J.Joseph
14. North, Cuthbert, Sharples??
15.Foden, Kearney, Halfpenny
Even that is tough and there are many that I left out that would easily get into the squad!

the opinions on these are pretty varied!!!!

not wanting to pick on propdavid, but seeing he was the last to post......

At hooker, Hartley and Reese are no way better than Ford
At tighthead, Mike Ross is not better than Murray
At lock I'd have DOC ahead of Kellock and especially Evans
At openside, Robshaw ahead of Rennie!!! really???
At 9, Care should be nowhere near a mautre sqaud.

it's going to come down to how the selectors are feeling and who balances out with who.

Will be an interesting winter of rugby running up to the selections methinks!

tigertattie - agree, admit thatI forgot Ford.
There is much room for debate - I know I left out a lot of excellent candidates.

RE:Care - competition is - Youngs, Phillips, Knoyle, Reddan and Connor Murray. ILawson and Cusiter! Neither I think. rekon he would be in with a long shot of Lions (if he keeps on the straight and narrow).

Healy
Best
Jones
Grey
POC
Ferris
SOB
Denton
Philips
Sexon
Visser
Davis
Roberts
North
Kearney

Let's be honest- each of the nations is playing AUS this autumn, that's the huge opportunity for players to step up

Yep..!

There is a huge opportunity. I really don't believe anyone is nailed on at all. Reputations will be solidly tested by the time selection is made.

ruggereradge

I dont understand the purpose of this thread as it appears to not provide for any selections to be based on style or on combinations??

As the tour isnt until next year it doesnt allow for form either??

what is does allow for is the suggestion that impartiality is an issue which of course because Wales' coach is now Lions coach, therefore he MUST disproportionately pick welshmen. BS.

Clearly the lesson of Henry's selection has been well learned by Gatland but he is damned either way; if he picks too many Welsh it will be his bias, if not enough to counter that accusation he will be accused of spoiling relations with Welsh players.

What is clear is his biggest challenge may be meeting expectations and handling the press, 2 issues he has been dealing with in Wales for years now. He is learnign to handle the media but maybe he needs a spin doctor like Campbell...perhaps Hersh is free.

Selection of Lions players should be on 6 Nations form but then again SCW ignored form in 2005 - despite saying if he picked a lions team shortly after the 05 Slam it would have been largely Welsh - he went and picked a squad based on the RWC 2003 and we all know how that went for him.

I trust Gatland to pick the best side; he is a class act with experience of Irish, English and Welsh rugby. He respects the Lions as a unique rugby brand and i think wales players know him well enough and respect him enough to know that he will pick a squad on club and 6 nations form and a test side on tour form (apart from Gethin who is already on the test team)

I thought the problem was that people thought that he would pick Welsh players even if they were better than players from some other countries.

Gatty has to think of his reputation as well, if he wants to be a serious contender forcoaching appointments in the future with teams like Waikato and the All blacks, then this Lions team has to be successful, and if that means picking more Welsh players than others, then so be it.

He has previous,

13 Ospreys players in his first game and he had to stand up to the criticism. But it was the result that mattered in the end and beating England was that success.

I dont think there are many watching his selection bias too much, just a few cinics...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:in the Lions test squad.

1. Cian Healy (I)
2. Rory Best (I) (Ross Ford)
3. Dan Cole (E)
4. Alan-Wyn Jones (W) (Richie Gray)
5. Paul O'Connell (I)
6. Steven Ferris (I)
7. Sam Warburton (W) (Ross Rennie)
8. Sean O'Brien (I)

9. Ben Youngs (E)
10. Toby Flood (E)
11. Tommy Bowe (I) (Tim MacVisser)
12. Scott Williams (W)
13. Johnathon Davies (W)
14. George North (W)
15. Ben Foden (E)

16. Adam Jones (W) 17. Dylan Heartley (E) 18. Luke Charteris (W) 19. Tom Croft (E) 20. Danny Care (E) 21. Johnny Sexton (I) 22. Rob Kearney (I)

How on earth did you omit Kearney? European player of the year, carried Ireland through the 6N, what more does he have to do. Has been the best all-round FB in the world for the past year.

I don't think O'Brien can play 8, our lineout options would be limited. Rather have Faletau or Heaslip if he returns to form, then Ferris-SOB can be decide on form for 6.

Would trust Mike Phillips or maybe Conor Murray over Ben Youngs.

Sexton should be the stand out contender for 10. Now that O'Gara is out of the picture, hopefully he can settle and replicate his Leinster level to the international scene.

I know I'm starting to sound biased, but post-operation, BOD has been fantastic, if he keeps up that form I think he should fill the no.13 shirt. JD2 can play inside centre.

I would rather have Healy as an impact sub, with Corbisiero starting.

If Richardt Strauss qualifies for Ireland, he may be a better option than Best.

And Gray replaces Wyn-Jones.

1. Corbisiero
2. Best/Strauss
3. Cole
4. POC
5. Gray
6. Ferris/SOB
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip/Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Davies
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Best/Strauss
17. Healy
18. Wyn-Jones
19. Ferris/SOB
20. Murray
21. Farrell
22. Visser

theslosty wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:in the Lions test squad.

1. Cian Healy (I)
2. Rory Best (I) (Ross Ford)
3. Dan Cole (E)
4. Alan-Wyn Jones (W) (Richie Gray)
5. Paul O'Connell (I)
6. Steven Ferris (I)
7. Sam Warburton (W) (Ross Rennie)
8. Sean O'Brien (I)

9. Ben Youngs (E)
10. Toby Flood (E)
11. Tommy Bowe (I) (Tim MacVisser)
12. Scott Williams (W)
13. Johnathon Davies (W)
14. George North (W)
15. Ben Foden (E)

16. Adam Jones (W) 17. Dylan Heartley (E) 18. Luke Charteris (W) 19. Tom Croft (E) 20. Danny Care (E) 21. Johnny Sexton (I) 22. Rob Kearney (I)

How on earth did you omit Kearney? European player of the year, carried Ireland through the 6N, what more does he have to do. Has been the best all-round FB in the world for the past year.

I don't think O'Brien can play 8, our lineout options would be limited. Rather have Faletau or Heaslip if he returns to form, then Ferris-SOB can be decide on form for 6.

Would trust Mike Phillips or maybe Conor Murray over Ben Youngs.

Sexton should be the stand out contender for 10. Now that O'Gara is out of the picture, hopefully he can settle and replicate his Leinster level to the international scene.

I know I'm starting to sound biased, but post-operation, BOD has been fantastic, if he keeps up that form I think he should fill the no.13 shirt. JD2 can play inside centre.

I would rather have Healy as an impact sub, with Corbisiero starting.

If Richardt Strauss qualifies for Ireland, he may be a better option than Best.

And Gray replaces Wyn-Jones.

1. Corbisiero
2. Best/Strauss
3. Cole
4. POC
5. Gray
6. Ferris/SOB
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip/Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Davies
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Best/Strauss
17. Healy
18. Wyn-Jones
19. Ferris/SOB
20. Murray
21. Farrell
22. Visser

Erm, Losty, the idea of this thread is for you to pick a Lions team EXCLUDING players from your country

Apologies, forgot about not including own team.

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Wyn-Jones
5. Gray
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Farrell
11. Visser
12. Davies
13. Tuilagi
14. North
15. Foden

16. Ford
17. Jenkins
18. Evans
19. Croft
20. Youngs
21. Priestland
22. Halfpenny