Bolts nutritionist

Bolt reportedly has been working with Angel Hernandez, too. Hernandez used to be called Angel Heredia, back when he was a chemist for BALCO and later “Source A,” who supplied the documents that helped convict Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, C.J. Hunter and Justin Gatlin. Gatlin just took bronze in the 100, behind Bolt and Blake.

Before the games in Beijing, Heredia told Germany’s Der Spiegel that, regarding the 100-meter final, “the winner will not be clean. Not even any of the contestants will be clean. There is no doubt about it, the difference between 10.0 and 9.7 seconds is the drugs.”

Interesting story. Bolt has hooked up with a past BALCO member who thought the winner of the 100m would be on drugs.

LJ

This has already been covered on the last thread. While this report appears quite widely on the internet, the original source appears to be a site that specialises in rumours and innuendo rather than having any real proof.

I'm not saying that Bolt (and his training group) aren't working with Heredia / Hernandez, but the 'evidence' so far presented doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Didnt realise this has been covered, apologies. Aside from the racial insults/accusations I thought it was just a case of one poster saying Jamaica are clean, and another saying there arent.

Thought this offered a slightly different view, obviously not. Apologies.

It was on this thread:

https://www.606v2.com/t33680-out-of-competition-testing-2011

Just you wait until Azania and DJK get their hands on this thread! It'll be a case of all Euro and US based athletes on drugs but the pure Jamaican based athletes are on nothing but yam and breadfruit and have gotten to where they are by sheer good old fashioned hard work!

Nah, they're all on PEDs these days. When the Carl Lewis scandal broke out I lost all hope for the sprinters ever to be clean.

dummy_half wrote:LJ

This has already been covered on the last thread. While this report appears quite widely on the internet, the original source appears to be a site that specialises in rumours and innuendo rather than having any real proof.

I'm not saying that Bolt (and his training group) aren't working with Heredia / Hernandez, but the 'evidence' so far presented doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

There was scant 'real' evidence on the ground about Lance Armstrong in the beginning either - just heresay and allegedly suspicious link ups with shady people.

If a drug is undetectable then it automatically leaves no 'evidence'. Do such drugs exist? - well, it's always the true race, isn't it. Drugs trying to outwit detection is the real race in many professional sports. No point in using them if they're easily detected. Every drug that is easily detected today began life as a hidden substance that couldn't be detected.

SF

Don't disagree with much of your post - in the case of the Bolt rumour, it's more that the allegation of a working relationship between UB and Heredia seems to have originated in internet speculation and has taken on a life of its own with nothing to indicate any substance to it. By comparison, I don't think Lance Armstrong ever (explicitly) hid his working relationship with Dr Ferrari.

First:

My most profound apology for breaking the forum rules a couple days back. I even extended by ban for a few exrtra days.


Super:

"Just you wait until Azania and DJK get their hands on this thread! "

Lol.lol.

You crack me up mate?


"Nah, they're all on PEDs these days"

If they are all on PEDs - it means that it is an even playing ground.

Anyway regarding Heridita or whatever his name is: If this was true the mainstream media would have picked upon this longtime ago. This is hearsay that appear on an arcane website in the far reaches of the internet.


I know you guys slag off Jamaica - doping system.

First you said they did not have one , then you say it is not good enough.

I would like to remind you guys of 3 FACTS:

1.JADCO the jamaican doping control is accredited by WADA and the IAAF. They have to meet the same standards as the UK or any other country doping authorities. If they didnt they would not be accredited.

2. They do do OOCT.

3. Jamaican athletes are tested more OOC than UK and other athletes. Check IAAF and WADA for the stats.

I know DJ think that the IAAF is corrupt and they will never bust a big name athlete.

That is fine.

But how do we know that they UK doping authroity will not cover up a big name athlete like: Wiggins, Ennis et al? Are they beyound reproach? Are they immune to corruption?

A couple days ago English made a comment that Jamaica never won a single olympic medal between 1976 and 2008.

When it was pointed out in fact that Ja won 35 medals during that time he backtracked and said he meant an 100m olyympic champion.

Even if i was to be charitable and agreed that he mispoke (i do not believe he did), there is nothing unsual in going 25 odd years without a Champion.

After all Britain did not produce a Tour de france winner in over 100 years.

Now they have at least 2 who can win the tour? Why this sudden success to use DJ and English quote?

in 1996 Britain won 1 medal at the olympics. Fast forward to 2012 they are dominating cycling. Should we not question those success?

Another comment was made that: All of a sudden Jamiaca is producing a lot of guys who are running sub 10 and sub 20?

Nothing unsual here again:

Spain went 40 odd years without a major trophy. They now won 3 in succession with a generation of great players.

In the 1980s the Windies produced an ambudance of fast bowlers.

Britain now producing lot of good cyclist?

So what is the difference?.

The 3ws from Barbados lived within a 5 mile radius of each other they all came on the scene at the same time. All time great in their sports.

There is nothing unsual about a tiny country producing great players relative to bigger country:

Serbia vs GB in tennis.

Barbabos (population 300,000) vs England and India (population 62 mil and 1.1 billion respectively) . Barbados produce more great cricketers than India and England combined (arguably)

So Jamaica sprinting ambudance and success. When put into a wider perspective, is not that unsual and suprising.

I dont mind DJ and english et al putting their points across, but come on guys if you are going to do so please put forward cogent arguements backed by evidence and stats to support your arguments.

Not the same old "yeah they are taking PEDS" - without any critical analysis and facts to support that claim.

Qualify and quantity your arguments - thats all.

djkbrown2001 wrote:

Anyway regarding Heridita or whatever his name is: If this was true the mainstream media would have picked upon this longtime ago. This is hearsay that appear on an arcane website in the far reaches of the internet.

I'm just trying to do this thing to see how far logic goes. I have my suspicions about many athletes from many different sports so I wouldn't isolate Bolt from the masses - he's just part of the big business, big sponsorship, big money package that is professional sport. You have an icon, you WILL make money. Usain, like many other sportstars, is an icon, and the money men have attached themselves to him and have a vested interest in perpetuating the 'legend'.

So, whilst I observe Bolt and others like him with a cautious eye given how many 'clean' guys proved not so clean in the end, I also observe other sports and I'm actually more concerned about them (namely rugby union). If there are undetectable drug systems out there that can beat stiff drug enforcement at THE top world sports event (Olympics) then it's almost certain that extends out to my sport of interest - and I'd get pretty annoyed if supposed stars from my sport were shoring up their icon status on the undetectable.

So, with that concern as a context for my question, here goes: You mention Heredia and go on to say "whatever his name is" in a dismissive fashion. Well, he exists. He's real. So when you say others throw up vague comments from shady internet sites maybe you might have been better off keying in the name 'Heredia' and see what you come up with.

There is a New York Times article on him and his 'ways'. Mainstream and 2008. There is a Der Spiegel interview with him. Mainstream and again 2008. In that too he say he knows things and knows how things get done - in sprinting.

So, he's real, he has opinions, he personally injects growth hormone openly on camera. NOW - the question that needs answering that I don't know the factual answer to, is that one question you seek an answer to - does this guy Heredia, now operating under a new legal name of Herandez, work with Usain Bolt?

I don't know. Maybe someone out there has the details on whether that bit is true or not. Now, if it is true then certainly observers have a right to be suspicious of those he is confirmed to be working with ....... OR, Usain Bolt doesn't know who he's working with, is working innocently with a guy he thinks is a coach and nutritionalist and needs to be quickly and bluntly told by his people that Mr. Herandez is quite a suspicious guy and should be gotten rid of in the interests of Usain Bolt's continuing good name.

So the simply question is - without the accusations and counter accusations - Does a guy named Angel Herandez (once Angel Heredia) work with Usain Bolt? Answers below please from anyone who might know. And meanwhile I'll try to do my own research on that one.

" I'm actually more concerned about them (namely rugby union)"

I am not sure if their testing procedures is as robust in Rugby union.

I am not saying that Hernandez is not real and that he has not done dosgy stuff in past.

What I am dimissing is the idea that he is working with Bolt. This would have been picked up long time ago by the mainstream media.

Imagine the Headline in the Daily Mail: "Bolt working with Hernandez"

Of course he will have an opinion just like the Victor Conte. But that doesnt mean that everything he says is true and credible and that I must believe him.

Don't get me wrong - people are doping.

How many? - I dont know? You dont know, Victor Conte Dont know, DJ dont know , English Dont know? Anyone trying to put a figure on it is just guess work.

Who are the dopers ? I dont know? You dont know, Victor Conte Dont know, DJ dont know , English Dont know? Anyone claiming that they know must provide the conclusive evidence.

We will only know, when they are caught.

If we are going to make statements and accuse the Jamaicans other other athletes of doping - the onus is on us to proof our case - not on the accussed to prove their innocence.

Thats the priciple of justice.

djkbrown2001 wrote:
I am not saying that Hernandez is not real and that he has not done dosgy stuff in past.

What I am dimissing is the idea that he is working with Bolt. This would have been picked up long time ago by the mainstream media.

Imagine the Headline in the Daily Mail: "Bolt working with Hernandez"

Of course he will have an opinion just like the Victor Conte. But that doesnt mean that everything he says is true and credible and that I must believe him.

Don't get me wrong - people are doping.

How many? - I dont know? You dont know, Victor Conte Dont know, DJ dont know , English Dont know? Anyone trying to put a figure on it is just guess work.

Who are the dopers ? I dont know? You dont know, Victor Conte Dont know, DJ dont know , English Dont know? Anyone claiming that they know must provide the conclusive evidence.

We will only know, when they are caught.

If we are going to make statements and accuse the Jamaicans other other athletes of doping - the onus is on us to proof our case - not on the accussed to prove their innocence.

Thats the priciple of justice.

Very well said DJK.

djkbrown2001 wrote:First:

My most profound apology for breaking the forum rules a couple days back. I even extended by ban for a few exrtra days.


Super:

"Just you wait until Azania and DJK get their hands on this thread! "

Lol.lol.

You crack me up mate?


"Nah, they're all on PEDs these days"

If they are all on PEDs - it means that it is an even playing ground.
Anyway regarding Heridita or whatever his name is: If this was true the mainstream media would have picked upon this longtime ago. This is hearsay that appear on an arcane website in the far reaches of the internet.


I know you guys slag off Jamaica - doping system.

First you said they did not have one , then you say it is not good enough.

I would like to remind you guys of 3 FACTS:

1.JADCO the jamaican doping control is accredited by WADA and the IAAF. They have to meet the same standards as the UK or any other country doping authorities. If they didnt they would not be accredited.

2. They do do OOCT.

3. Jamaican athletes are tested more OOC than UK and other athletes. Check IAAF and WADA for the stats. I know DJ think that the IAAF is corrupt and they will never bust a big name athlete. That is fine.

But how do we know that they UK doping authroity will not cover up a big name athlete like: Wiggins, Ennis et al? Are they beyound reproach? Are they immune to corruption?
A couple days ago English made a comment that Jamaica never won a single olympic medal between 1976 and 2008.

When it was pointed out in fact that Ja won 35 medals during that time he backtracked and said he meant an 100m olyympic champion.

Even if i was to be charitable and agreed that he mispoke (i do not believe he did), there is nothing unsual in going 25 odd years without a Champion.

After all Britain did not produce a Tour de france winner in over 100 years.

Now they have at least 2 who can win the tour? Why this sudden success to use DJ and English quote?

in 1996 Britain won 1 medal at the olympics. Fast forward to 2012 they are dominating cycling. Should we not question those success?

Another comment was made that: All of a sudden Jamiaca is producing a lot of guys who are running sub 10 and sub 20?

Nothing unsual here again:

Spain went 40 odd years without a major trophy. They now won 3 in succession with a generation of great players.

In the 1980s the Windies produced an ambudance of fast bowlers.

Britain now producing lot of good cyclist?

So what is the difference?.

The 3ws from Barbados lived within a 5 mile radius of each other they all came on the scene at the same time. All time great in their sports.

There is nothing unsual about a tiny country producing great players relative to bigger country:

Serbia vs GB in tennis.

Barbabos (population 300,000) vs England and India (population 62 mil and 1.1 billion respectively) . Barbados produce more great cricketers than India and England combined (arguably)

So Jamaica sprinting ambudance and success. When put into a wider perspective, is not that unsual and suprising.

I dont mind DJ and english et al putting their points across, but come on guys if you are going to do so please put forward cogent arguements backed by evidence and stats to support your arguments.

Not the same old "yeah they are taking PEDS" - without any critical analysis and facts to support that claim.

Qualify and quantity your arguments - thats all.

DJK - I never said the Jamaicans were "cheating" as such and yes they're fair winners if everyone dopes but who want's to see Olympic Games where the best pharmacist wins?

As for the point you make about Wiggins, Ennis etc I've stated previously that I think something may be up with Ennis only to be ridiculed for it.

As you and Azania have been told until everyone is blue in the face is this thing about "evidence". If there was evidence these guys would be thrown out. We're all saying there's no evidence because the dopers are so far ahead of the system it's laughable. So if Bolt clears 150 tests it makes no difference he would be taking PEDs that are undetectable by current tests as everyone else is.

As for you, you crack me up to. You keep spewing up the same stuff over and over but conveniently ignore the fact that the testing systems are useless and those who have cheated the system in the past like Conte continue to say so.

"3. Jamaican athletes are tested more OOC than UK and other athletes. Check IAAF and WADA for the stats. I know DJ think that the IAAF is corrupt and they will never bust a big name athlete. That is fine."

Please stop saying this. Jamaican athletes are tested more BY THE IAAF than other athletes.

Athletes from the UK and US (and elsewhere) are tested by THEIR OWN ANTI DOPING AGENCIES so the IAAF don't have to get involved as much. Statistics for this testing IS NOT ON THE IAAF WEBSITE.

As for the whole 'you're accusing people I like, so I'm going to accuse people I think you like' argument. Nobody is saying that Wiggins and Ennis are not at it, the simple fact is that these people were not part of the discussion at the time. Ennis and Wiggins being on PEDs has no real bearing on whether the Jamaicans are or not.

You do realise that many many people are questioning the success of the British cycling team. It's just not met with the same hysteria as when you question a Jamaican.

DJ and super,

dont get me wrong. I am not accussing Wiggins , Ennis et al.

All I am saying is that if one suspect the jamaican - why not the british cyclist?

Just to clarify: I DO NOT believe that Ennis, Wiggins and MO etc are cheating just like i do not believe that Bolt is cheating.

They have too much to lose.

With the history of doping in athletics and cycling. I am sure that somewhere in their contract there is a clause about doping and paying back the money if they get caught.

Visa, PUMA, Virgin etc are not fools. They would not want their brand to be tainted by a Doped up Bolt.

The markets gives him the benefit of the doubt. So i am prepare as well. Remember it is the markets that ruled the world.

As for Super point about the dopers being ahead of the testers .... If that is the case (i dont know) its incumbent on WADA/IOC to up their game. I am sure they have the money to keep up.

djkbrown2001 wrote:
DJ and super,

dont get me wrong. I am not accussing Wiggins , Ennis et al.

All I am saying is that if one suspect the jamaican - why not the british cyclist?

Just to clarify: I DO NOT believe that Ennis, Wiggins and MO etc are cheating just like i do not believe that Bolt is cheating.

They have too much to lose.

With the history of doping in athletics and cycling. I am sure that somewhere in their contract there is a clause about doping and paying back the money if they get caught.

Visa, PUMA, Virgin etc are not fools. They would not want their brand to be tainted by a Doped up Bolt.

The markets gives him the benefit of the doubt. So i am prepare as well. Remember it is the markets that ruled the world.

As for Super point about the dopers being ahead of the testers .... If that is the case (i dont know) its incumbent on WADA/IOC to up their game. I am sure they have the money to keep up.

The money does rule the world. These big corporations don't care if they athlete is doping or not, they just don't want the athletes to get caught. A doped up Bolt is absolutely no problem (it's actually ideal, because he runs faster), it's a doped up Bolt failing a drugs test that they don't want.

I couldn't care less whether you're accusing Ennis and Wiggins of doping or not. Just that whether they are or not is not that relevant in this discussion.

Bolt and co have absolutely nothing to lose when nobody is doing anything to catch them. They know they're bigger than the sport these days, Bolt is as big a name as the sport has ever had and if anything bad were to happen to him, the sport would be damaged in an irreparable way. The IAAF are never going to let anything happen to him (and a lot of his clubmates too, as busting people close by to Bolt would also be damaging.)

djlovesyou wrote:
The money does rule the world. These big corporations don't care if they athlete is doping or not, they just don't want the athletes to get caught. A doped up Bolt is absolutely no problem (it's actually ideal, because he runs faster), it's a doped up Bolt failing a drugs test that they don't want.

I couldn't care less whether you're accusing Ennis and Wiggins of doping or not. Just that whether they are or not is not that relevant in this discussion.

Bolt and co have absolutely nothing to lose when nobody is doing anything to catch them. They know they're bigger than the sport these days, Bolt is as big a name as the sport has ever had and if anything bad were to happen to him, the sport would be damaged in an irreparable way. The IAAF are never going to let anything happen to him (and a lot of his clubmates too, as busting people close by to Bolt would also be damaging.)

This is your opinion or those are facts ? I mean people close to him (Blake) have been busted !

That's called following proper procedures. JADCO introduced testing at the national champs and then a bunch failed the tests.

The IAAF don't generally protect their athletes by covering up positive drug tests (although they have with Ottey and Lagat), they protect the athletes by not testing them at appropriate times and allowing athletes to choose not to take a drug test if they don't want to at that particular time.

djlovesyou wrote:That's called following proper procedures. JADCO introduced testing at the national champs and then a bunch failed the tests.

The IAAF don't generally protect their athletes by covering up positive drug tests (although they have with Ottey and Lagat), they protect the athletes by not testing them at appropriate times and allowing athletes to choose not to take a drug test if they don't want to at that particular time.

And certainly, you have reliable sources to back up these claims? You are aware that many of the drug tests carried out by the domestic anti doping bodies are mandated by the IAAF ?
Do, I believe that some athletes are juiced ? Of course, but not at the point of being paranoid.

Babario wrote:

Do, I believe that some athletes are juiced ? Of course, but not at the point of being paranoid.

Did you mean to say. "Of course, but none of the ones that I like."

djlovesyou wrote:

Babario wrote:

Do, I believe that some athletes are juiced ? Of course, but not at the point of being paranoid.

Did you mean to say. "Of course, but none of the ones that I like."

Did you read my post ?
I said :

"Do, I believe that some athletes are juiced ? Of course, but not at the point of being paranoid".

Apologize if you didn't understand the sentence (BTW, I have already expressed my suspicions about some athletes that you're accusing day in, day out on these boards, but without proof I'm not going to accuse outright people of cheating, only suspicions )

also I asked :

"And certainly, you have reliable sources to back up these claims? "

Given, your answer, I'd say No.

I've never said that anyone is 100% doping. I've only ever said that the Jamaican 'situation' is sketchy.

I don't like the fact that you guys have real issues with allowing people opinions that differ from yours.

This is getting so tedious

you repeat the same nonsense endlessly, other posters point out the enormous flaws in your 'arguements', you ignore those posts and at the very next opportunity just repeat your 'facts' again.

I don't even know if you read any other posts apart from your own but the point that jamaican MEN havd not won an olympic medal for over 30 YEARS before bolt is important. Why? because it nails the lie that jamaica as a country has always been good at sprinting. It hasn't as can clearly be seen.

So once again I'll ask you where were the victors from your famous boys sports day in those 30 years? What has changed in the last few years that has allowed those boys to manage the transition from good schoolboy athlete to global superstar when they had 30 years of opportunities but couldn't translate them into an olympic medal?

If you have any knowledge then its quite obvious. See if you can answer it without pretending to misunderstand my question.

english_osprey wrote:This is getting so tedious

you repeat the same nonsense endlessly, other posters point out the enormous flaws in your 'arguements', you ignore those posts and at the very next opportunity just repeat your 'facts' again.

I don't even know if you read any other posts apart from your own but the point that jamaican MEN havd not won an olympic medal for over 30 YEARS before bolt is important. Why? because it nails the lie that jamaica as a country has always been good at sprinting. It hasn't as can clearly be seen.

So once again I'll ask you where were the victors from your famous boys sports day in those 30 years? What has changed in the last few years that has allowed those boys to manage the transition from good schoolboy athlete to global superstar when they had 30 years of opportunities but couldn't translate them into an olympic medal?
If you have any knowledge then its quite obvious. See if you can answer it without pretending to misunderstand my question

I think the Bahamas are worse. They don't show up for World Championships and yet somehow out of nowhere produce a 4x400m relay team that wins Olympic Gold! Where did that come from? They did much the same in Beijing. They don't show for the worlds yet bam an Olympic medal! If they're so good why aren't they diominating the Commonwealth Games as well? Why are they never at that dominating?

The Bahamanians are likely to be filthy dirty. Hiding out in the Carribean with no Out of Competition testing to speak of and show up to the Olympics all drugged up and ready to go!

english_osprey wrote:This is getting so tedious

you repeat the same nonsense endlessly, other posters point out the enormous flaws in your 'arguements', you ignore those posts and at the very next opportunity just repeat your 'facts' again.

I don't even know if you read any other posts apart from your own but the point that jamaican MEN havd not won an olympic medal for over 30 YEARS before bolt is important. Why? because it nails the lie that jamaica as a country has always been good at sprinting. It hasn't as can clearly be seen.

So once again I'll ask you where were the victors from your famous boys sports day in those 30 years? What has changed in the last few years that has allowed those boys to manage the transition from good schoolboy athlete to global superstar when they had 30 years of opportunities but couldn't translate them into an olympic medal?

If you have any knowledge then its quite obvious. See if you can answer it without pretending to misunderstand my question.

The sad thing is that you actually believe you have put a serious case forward. Your case is based on nothing but gossip of the type the Women's Institute would be proud of.

They have a golden generation of sprinters. After they have gone, it will be business as usual. Spain have a golden generation of footballers. England had theirs but as usual they failed.

Jamaican are winners and clean winners also.

They are not doped up like Team GB cyclists who I believe are in cohoots with the governing bodies to hide their so far undetectable tests. Their bio passports are also done by some dodgy geezer (my mate after a few pints told me - as credible as your sources). Wiggins dad was a juicer. The apple never falls far from the tree.

Super D Boon wrote:

english_osprey wrote:This is getting so tedious

you repeat the same nonsense endlessly, other posters point out the enormous flaws in your 'arguements', you ignore those posts and at the very next opportunity just repeat your 'facts' again.

I don't even know if you read any other posts apart from your own but the point that jamaican MEN havd not won an olympic medal for over 30 YEARS before bolt is important. Why? because it nails the lie that jamaica as a country has always been good at sprinting. It hasn't as can clearly be seen.

So once again I'll ask you where were the victors from your famous boys sports day in those 30 years? What has changed in the last few years that has allowed those boys to manage the transition from good schoolboy athlete to global superstar when they had 30 years of opportunities but couldn't translate them into an olympic medal?
If you have any knowledge then its quite obvious. See if you can answer it without pretending to misunderstand my question

I think the Bahamas are worse. They don't show up for World Championships and yet somehow out of nowhere produce a 4x400m relay team that wins Olympic Gold! Where did that come from? They did much the same in Beijing. They don't show for the worlds yet bam an Olympic medal! If they're so good why aren't they diominating the Commonwealth Games as well? Why are they never at that dominating?

The Bahamanians are likely to be filthy dirty. Hiding out in the Carribean with no Out of Competition testing to speak of and show up to the Olympics all drugged up and ready to go!

Bahamas have always produced good sprinters, both male and female. They train in USA so there are legit doubts.

Bless...

Think Az is a little wet behind the ears.

"I don't even know if you read any other posts apart from your own but the point that jamaican MEN havd not won an olympic medal for over 30 YEARS before bolt is important. Why? because it nails the lie that jamaica as a country has always been good at sprinting. It hasn't as can clearly be seen"

English:

Have you ever heard of: Donald Quarie, Herb Mckinley, Arthur Wint, George Rhoden, Les Laing, Bert Camerom. Lennox Miller et al.

If you havent please research them. They are all great Jamaican Sprinters, long before Bolt.

Jamaica has always been a nation of sprinters. Jamaica has been called the "sprint factory of the caribbean" long before Bolt. Research it.

Linford Christie, Donavan Bailey and Ben Johnson all Jamaicans by birth. All came form the same Parish as Bolt, VCB, Blake et al.

So I guess that bury your argument. You never cease to amaze me. Always making ridiculous comments without any facts/figures to back it up.

Furthermore: Jamaica did came second behind USA in the 4x100 males at the 1984 Olympics.

We all know that during that time the American and Soviets were doping an on industrial scale.

It can be argued that the reason why Jamaica did not win during that period it was the period of: Carl Lewis and Ben Johnson dominating and we all know what was going on during that time.

As i said before :At the turn of the century when doping became more stringent; jamaica's medal haul become better. Coincidence?

"So once again I'll ask you where were the victors from your famous boys sports day in those 30 years? What has changed in the last few years that has allowed those boys to manage the transition from good schoolboy athlete to global superstar when they had 30 years of opportunities but couldn't translate them into an olympic medal?"

During those 30 years: This is what happened:

a. The age of Carl Lewis

b. Linford, Donavan and the disgraced Ben Johnson all migrated from Jamaica to the Canada and Britain.

c. No nation could have touched the American during that period for one reason or another.

d. Jamaican best male sprinters were recruited from Champs during that time (Roy Bailey etc) They went on the NCCA circuit came back after 4 years and burnt out. They were only nutured to win trophies for the colleges not with a career in mind.

e. Within the past decade, many Jamaica coaches have returned home from the USA putting those skills to use locally.

f. There is now the GC Foster College in Jamaica -dedicated to sports.

h. The IAAF established a high perfomance centre in Kingston.

Come on English do better than that.

Its like me saying that Spain is not good at footbal because they have not won a tropgy in 40 years and now that they win 3 on the go - I should have doubt.

Can you see the folly of your arguement?

Please use logic and reasoning - not emotion and hearsay.

djkbrown2001 wrote:"I don't even know if you read any other posts apart from your own but the point that jamaican MEN havd not won an olympic medal for over 30 YEARS before bolt is important. Why? because it nails the lie that jamaica as a country has always been good at sprinting. It hasn't as can clearly be seen"

English:

Have you ever heard of: Donald Quarie, Herb Mckinley, Arthur Wint, George Rhoden, Les Laing, Bert Camerom. Lennox Miller et al.

Jamaica has always been a nation of sprinters. Jamaica has been called the "sprint factory of the caribbean" long before Bolt. Research it.

Linford Christie, Donavan Bailey and Ben Johnson all Jamaicans by birth. All came form the same Parish as Bolt, VCB, Blake et al.

We all know that during that time the American and Soviets were doping an on industrial scale.As i said before :

At the turn of the century when doping became more stringent; jamaica's medal haul become better. Coincidence?

Yes but out of that lot the only one most have heard of is Don Quarrie.

Stating Linford Christie and Ben Johnson to back up your argument is really not the brightest idea you've had given their history!

So the Soviets and Yanks were doping who's saying they didn't it's just your continued rose tinted specs when it comes to the Jamaicans that's laughable.

Doping hasn't become more stringent as has been pointed out. If anything things are worse than ever before. The fact that Conte said cheating the testing system is like "taking candy from a baby" is pertty stark. It should also leave people (without rose tinted specs) in a load of doubt about the Jamaicans when a load of them fairly recently (Blake included) failed National drugs tests. How anyone can say these guys are as clean as a whistle I do not know!

azania wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

english_osprey wrote:This is getting so tedious

you repeat the same nonsense endlessly, other posters point out the enormous flaws in your 'arguements', you ignore those posts and at the very next opportunity just repeat your 'facts' again.

I don't even know if you read any other posts apart from your own but the point that jamaican MEN havd not won an olympic medal for over 30 YEARS before bolt is important. Why? because it nails the lie that jamaica as a country has always been good at sprinting. It hasn't as can clearly be seen.

So once again I'll ask you where were the victors from your famous boys sports day in those 30 years? What has changed in the last few years that has allowed those boys to manage the transition from good schoolboy athlete to global superstar when they had 30 years of opportunities but couldn't translate them into an olympic medal?
If you have any knowledge then its quite obvious. See if you can answer it without pretending to misunderstand my question

I think the Bahamas are worse. They don't show up for World Championships and yet somehow out of nowhere produce a 4x400m relay team that wins Olympic Gold! Where did that come from? They did much the same in Beijing. They don't show for the worlds yet bam an Olympic medal! If they're so good why aren't they diominating the Commonwealth Games as well? Why are they never at that dominating?

The Bahamanians are likely to be filthy dirty. Hiding out in the Carribean with no Out of Competition testing to speak of and show up to the Olympics all drugged up and ready to go!

Bahamas have always produced good sprinters, both male and female. They train in USA so there are legit doubts.

Oh yes I forgot the rule - USA trained = Dirty, Jamaica trained = Clean. Silly me how could I not remember that!

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Bless...

Think Az is a little wet behind the ears.

Instead of making glib comments, why not try to explain yourself.

After you have done that, show me the evidence that Bolt is doping. Or Powell and others. You will find that the only roid taking Jamaican sprinter was one who trained in USA.

"Stating Linford Christie and Ben Johnson to back up your argument is really not the brightest idea you've had given their history!"

SUPER:

I see your point right there. But it doesnt take away from the fact that Linford and Johnson are talented sprinters.

English stated that jamaica havent produced any 100m champion during that time:

I refered to Donavan Bailey and Linford Christie as legitmate 100m champions. They are Jamaica born. I still have reservations about Christie Nandrolone - not clear cut.

Johnson got busted. But in that race everyone was cheating.


"Yes but out of that lot the only one most have heard of is Don Quarrie."

It doesnt mean that the others did not exist. The others were olympic, world champion and WR holders in their discipline.

Lets put it this way simple:

Jamaica and the wider Caribbean have always produced sprinters and will continue to do so. I wont go again into the casual factors for it.

Just like Brazil will always produced great footballers, UK will always produce great Darts and snookers players. some countries are just good at certain sports.

Regarding Bahamas: Nothing suspicous there: Their ladies always do well, the man are comming to the fore now.

Just like Kirani James from Grenada and the Trinidadian Javelin guys.

The anglophone caribbean is great at athletics just accept the fact. This was shown at London. 18 medals including 7 gold for a population of less than 5 million is beyound excellent. That makes the Anglophone caribbean top the list in terms of medal per population.

Finally if you think they guys are doping. Then dont watch the sport. Turn it off! Simple as.

Super D Boon wrote:

djkbrown2001 wrote:"I don't even know if you read any other posts apart from your own but the point that jamaican MEN havd not won an olympic medal for over 30 YEARS before bolt is important. Why? because it nails the lie that jamaica as a country has always been good at sprinting. It hasn't as can clearly be seen"

English:

Have you ever heard of: Donald Quarie, Herb Mckinley, Arthur Wint, George Rhoden, Les Laing, Bert Camerom. Lennox Miller et al.

Jamaica has always been a nation of sprinters. Jamaica has been called the "sprint factory of the caribbean" long before Bolt. Research it.

Linford Christie, Donavan Bailey and Ben Johnson all Jamaicans by birth. All came form the same Parish as Bolt, VCB, Blake et al.

We all know that during that time the American and Soviets were doping an on industrial scale.As i said before :

At the turn of the century when doping became more stringent; jamaica's medal haul become better. Coincidence?

Yes but out of that lot the only one most have heard of is Don Quarrie.

Stating Linford Christie and Ben Johnson to back up your argument is really not the brightest idea you've had given their history!

So the Soviets and Yanks were doping who's saying they didn't it's just your continued rose tinted specs when it comes to the Jamaicans that's laughable.

Doping hasn't become more stringent as has been pointed out. If anything things are worse than ever before. The fact that Conte said cheating the testing system is like "taking candy from a baby" is pertty stark. It should also leave people (without rose tinted specs) in a load of doubt about the Jamaicans when a load of them fairly recently (Blake included) failed National drugs tests. How anyone can say these guys are as clean as a whistle I do not know!

Please explain how it is worse than ever before. Some evidence would be nice as opposed to gossip.

Conte is trying to clean his name so will say anything to do that. Plus he has zero evidence. In fact my mate down my local boozer has as much evidence as he does.

Gemili has taken a third of a second off his PB. Clear cut case of doping isn't it?

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Bless...

Think Az is a little wet behind the ears.

Instead of making glib comments, why not try to explain yourself.

After you have done that, show me the evidence that Bolt is doping. Or Powell and others. You will find that the only roid taking Jamaican sprinter was one who trained in USA.

Blake?

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Bless...

Think Az is a little wet behind the ears.

Instead of making glib comments, why not try to explain yourself.

After you have done that, show me the evidence that Bolt is doping. Or Powell and others. You will find that the only roid taking Jamaican sprinter was one who trained in USA.

Blake?

Blake was not found with roids in his system. He had some over the counter meds or something inoccuous like that. Now because of that, everyone is looking at Team JA sprinters with suspiscion.

Really sad state of affairs when petty nonsense gets in the way.

The only JA sprinters taking stuff have been those based in Europe and USA.

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Bless...

Think Az is a little wet behind the ears.

Instead of making glib comments, why not try to explain yourself.

After you have done that, show me the evidence that Bolt is doping. Or Powell and others. You will find that the only roid taking Jamaican sprinter was one who trained in USA.

Blake?

Blake was not found with roids in his system. He had some over the counter meds or something inoccuous like that. Now because of that, everyone is looking at Team JA sprinters with suspiscion.

Really sad state of affairs when petty nonsense gets in the way.

The only JA sprinters taking stuff have been those based in Europe and USA.

And why do the fastest runners in the world feel compelled to only take stuff when the leave the airspace of their own country and go to Europe or the USA? Does competition get tougher? The fastest athletes are Jamaican, why the need for chemical assistance simply because you leave Jamaican airspace? Don't they know how to train like natural Jamaicans do, know what to eat like homegrown Jamacians do? What's the pressure on them to suddenly loosen the disciplin and slide under the influence of 'stuff'?

Who knows? You're asking me as if I train with them. Just stating a fact. Name one JA trained sprinter busted for roids.

Mullings probably took it because he wasn't the fastest athlete and wanted to be faster.

Yeah, but that's again saying the sun shines differently on Jamaica and that you have to be in it to get the effects that help you be the fastest without roids.

If an athlete isn't the fastest and wants to be faster...hmm, those conditions exist in Jamaica too - indeed, those conditions are probably magnified as the competition for speed in that country is the toughest in the world.

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, but that's again saying the sun shines differently on Jamaica and that you have to be in it to get the effects that help you be the fastest without roids.

If an athlete isn't the fastest and wants to be faster...hmm, those conditions exist in Jamaica too - indeed, those conditions are probably magnified as the competition for speed in that country is the toughest in the world.

Nothing of the sort. Once again, name me a single home trained JA sprinter caught with roids.

If an athlete isn't fastest but wants to be, what better place to be located than in the country/s where the best chemists live and work. Certainly isn't JA.

Hard work and dedication without roids. That's the JA stylie. Cool runnins.

Maybe azania. Maybe. The logic isn't completely with you but for now, I'll just let it lie.

azania wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, but that's again saying the sun shines differently on Jamaica and that you have to be in it to get the effects that help you be the fastest without roids.

If an athlete isn't the fastest and wants to be faster...hmm, those conditions exist in Jamaica too - indeed, those conditions are probably magnified as the competition for speed in that country is the toughest in the world.

Nothing of the sort. Once again, name me a single home trained JA sprinter caught with roids.

If an athlete isn't fastest but wants to be, what better place to be located than in the country/s where the best chemists live and work. Certainly isn't JA.

Hard work and dedication without roids. That's the JA stylie. Cool runnins.

Yeah, yeah.

You're blind hatred for Europe and America is clouding your already poor judgement.

What is your problem Jack? Unable to debate without resorting to unfounded, baseless and ridiculous insults? Grow up.

Name me a single JA based sprinter busted for roids.

Ok guys could we just end this now.

If people think that they are doping then dont watch the race/watch the jamaicans simply as.

I am sure that the majority of the 2 million who applied for the 100m final dont share that sentiment and the full stadia that turns up to watch the jamaicans in the DL.

We have two opposing views here: Its like liberal and the tea party in the USA , they willl never agree. Some people are convinced that the jamaicans are doping and nothing will change that.

This is getting riduclous now. Lets move on to something more positive/different.

This board was never design for this type of thing.

SecretFly wrote:Maybe azania. Maybe. The logic isn't completely with you but for now, I'll just let it lie.

Oh it is with me fly. What you guys have failed to provide is anything beyond housewife gossip. "The JA are fast so they must be doping".

For a 12 year period in the 1970-80s the Windies produced some of the best fast bowlers in history and a few of the best batsmen. Such things happen especially when there is a sporting tradition there.

"Team GB are fast at cycling but they are clean".

dkj

Some people are convinced that the jamaicans are doping and nothing will change that.

I can run with that, but what is silly is that their evidence is pure gossip. I wouldn't mind if it was intelligent gossip.

Who said team GB are clean....

I think everyone is at it, not just the jamaicans.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Who said team GB are clean....

I think everyone is at it, not just the jamaicans.

DJ said they have some bio passport and therefore are clean (or words to that extent.) Perhaps he can clean it up (no pun intended).

British cycling team enjoy sunshine and yams. It's the secret for a great performance.

Nothing sketchy about a small team all running quicker than all the biggest doping dopers in history because when the biggest doping dopers were running, sunshine and yams weren't invented yet.

The big technological breakthrough of modern day sunshine and yams that occured just prior to the Beijing Olympics is the biggest factor in the incredible rise of both the team of Jamaican sprinters and the British cyclists.

I never said that they were clean, I just said that given someone like Bradley Wiggins would be blood tested more times during one race than the entire Jamaican sprint team do in one year, it just lends itself to a little bit more credibility.

That and the fact that 10 years ago, Wiggins wouldn't have finished in the top 10 in the TDF given his power reading. The standard has dropped by a great deal since the Armstrong years and slightly beyond. Something that can't be said about sprinting.

A lot of people still doubt them though.