What I Feared; What I Knew

Ward's going to fight out of range. He's going to look to take away your majors assets, whatever they may be. He's going to work against your chest, make his jab count more than your jab, check left you until you can't see out your right eye, and ultimately, take your spirit.

Andre Ward has very fast hands, excellent movement, superb management of space and stunning timing. Even I'm a little off-balance when he lands his shots, for god-sake.

Andre Ward is world-class without ever looking sublime in the ring. He doesn't put on lyrical, flowing performances. He's rugged, intimidating and physical. His excellent work happens so fast that it often takes a replay or some HBO lump to point it out. I mean he can be that good on the inside, that blistering. He can also be that good and blistering when coming in from range. But again it's tough to spot such natural ability when it comes so well-disguised. Like a London banker asking the people to invest, thief's have many guises. Andre's a master thief when it comes to taking another man's will whilst expressing his unique talents.

Its what his opponents don't do against him that is as telling as what he does do, and not only is this enough to get the win, it is a W that comes with more and more dominance with each fight that he takes.

Andre Ward is a frightening talent because Andre Ward doesn't believe his opponent can stop him doing what he needs to do. What he needs to do. Maybe it is his belief that is his greatest gift?

The headbutts frustrate but hopefully they will become less of an issue as he continues his rise. Nobody's perfect, right?

Chad Dawson is what frustrates me about boxers. He is talented, he is skilled. Dawson can throw in bunches or beat you with a jab. He has the speed to hurt and the size to dominate.

Chad Dawson has very low self-belief, and a mindset that lacks ring-smarts and the ability to stay focused for 12 full rounds. I like Chad Dawson, i wanted him to do well against Andre, but Chad was only bad like sugar cane.

The boy played sweet when he needed to get rough.

Instead of being street-dirty he came sugar-coated.

He dominates the older light-heavies because the older light-heavies cannot be active for twelve rounds. They tire, like Dawson. They are inactive as a result, like Dawson. They are ten years plus older, than Chad Dawson.

Scully stood in his man's corner last night, pleading his man to try and win. Think about that. Think about the rounds, and how Scully came up with a new, more desperate game plan, each time his inactive fighter lumbered back after three frustrating minutes. I don't blame the trainer, as he was just trying to get into his fighter's head, a head so consumed with self-doubt that he was unable to fight loose or 'roll the shoulders', as the frustrated Scully pointed out.

The two knockdowns that came early were partly down to Ward's varied punches and offensive game plan when in the center of the ring. However, they were also partly down to Chad Dawson's unwillingness to throw a punch and ducking head tactics on the inside. I witnessed at least three round where Dawson landed 0 punches. ZERO punches people. For a man as gifted as Chad Dawson.

Is his love for boxing there? Was it ever there? Will he be able to come back against anyone young and hungry? Anyone young, hungry and able to operate over 12 rounds at world-level. No, IMO.

Chad Dawson spent so long chasing old icons that he forgot what it felt like to fight a new one. Pascal was hungry but gassed, Chad did nothing until it was too late. B-Hop is nearing fifty and fought for 1 minute 30 of each round, max. What did Chad do? Just enough to win a UD.

This man should retire. Not because he isn't talented, or able to dominate at light-heavy for as long as it takes for Ward, Bute or Kessler to call him out for his title. Chad Dawson should retire because when i watch him fight i often wonder when it's going to be over.

And i like Chad Dawson.

What next for Andre Ward?

Bigger purses, fights and promotions. I'd like to see him move up a weight division if he can find a viable opponent. If not then Bute would be an intriguing fight, as would the ever elusive Andre Dirrell. But we'll see. I expect at least six months of hype to take place before Andre Ward is back in action. Still, I suspect it will be against another world-level operator. In skill-set, at least.

Yours,

emore

It will be interesting to see if this is a career ender for Dawson, not retirement, more like Pavlik vs Hopkins kind of soul breaker.

I am glad Ward produced the goods especially on a HBO PPV broadcast where you cant afford to stink.

Ward really could become a PPV star like Floyd now, hell knows he deserves it.

It wasn't the end for Froch, but Froch fought way harder and has way more belief. I just felt he didn't try hard enough, did Chad.

Andre can be a star, and one more HBO fight and then a PPV is a calling, i think. Would love to see Chavez JR go up in weight and get crushed by Ward. That's if he takes Martinez first, that is, and i doubt that.

Froch didn't take a complete hiding like Dawson did. Granted he lost most rounds but came out hardly with a mark on him. 2 completely different outcomes.

And ward WAS ppv last night

REALLY? Interesting that he has already gone PPV.

I hope he fights Dirrell or Bute soon, although, Dirrell is way, way too inactive, and IMO, would lose badly. Another Dawson is Dirrell; he is gifted but mentally, not there.

Bute could be a cracker as Ward isn't the bum-rush type that Froch is. Not quite as savage. And if Bute has time to throw he is dangerous.

Ward is a come forward counter puncher so would pose Bute problems.

Real good article Emore. I don't think Dawson will ever be the same after that, to be honest. That was a beasting. Dawson already suffers from head problems and he was embarrassed last night

Thanks Seanus. Great point and i see Chad maybe taking two or three more fights and then bye-bye Chad.

OneTwo, good point, Come forward counter-punchers are tricky. Forcing you to throw, miss and eat one in return, lol.

Needs to look to avenge Pascal at 175. Beat Cloud, maybe Campillo and go. Thing is, you are remembered for defeats like last nights. It was brutal

Time to update p4p status too. Ward is 2nd for me now. Only Mayweather has done more

Still have him tied 5th with Marquez at the moment pending the outcome of the Martinez/Chavez fight.

Mayweather is now the clear number one while Donaire has done far far more than Ward, in reality there's no comparison between a four weight world champion facing the best and a one weight world champion facing the best in his backyard.

Pacquiao is a tricky one but am still happy to have him at number 3. Martinez if he loses drops below Ward but as things stand he's faced 9 world ranked fighters in a row with a very questionable draw and loss in there, still worth his number four spot.

Very impressive from Ward. There doesnt really seem to be any obvious fights out there for him at the moment now. He could go to 175, but would anyone there want to face him? Certainly cant see Dawson (again), Cleverly or Shumenov wanting it. Im not sure the winner of Pascal/Cloud would be either. Theres no real point in moving up unless decent fights can be made there.

At 168 he might have a mandatory coming up soon which could be anyone. Outside of that Pavlik will have to fight someone half decent soon which might be an option.

Below, Chavez Jr would have the size to move up. Win or lose against Martinez he might not be able to stay at MW too much longer given how much weight he has to cut. But I dont really see him being interested in Ward either. Although if he beats Martinez there will be an obvious clamour for it and a fight between the two would be financially lucrative.

I think its overly harsh to only have Ward at number 5, its easier to move through weights at in the lower weight classes. Ward has totally dominated the absolute best in the division and then just totally dominated the best light heavyweight as well.

Ward for me would be pushing number 1 and I honestly think he deserves it, Mayweather is far too inactive now.

Kessler, Green, Bika, Froch, Abraham, Miranda, Dawson. Can ANYONE boast a string of fights like that? Ward has barely lost a round!

Kessler, Froch and Dawson are the elite level wins that he holds, in terms of pound for pound Green, Bika, Abraham and Miranda are non entities. Donaire is a four weight world champion boasting wins over pound for pound fighters like Montiel and Darchinyan, the way he dismantled that pair is more impressive than anything Ward has ever done.

Add in beating world champions like and highly rated fighters over and over again you end up with a guaranteed hall of fame fighter still at the top of the game, if he beats Nishioka he cements 2nd place even more. Nishioka is a better fighter than anyone at super middleweight baring Ward, it's a typical case of Ward getting rated higher due to being in a more glamorous division.

Boxingfan, Froch can boast a string like that.

Him and Ward are top ten P4P fighters, IMO. Donaire and alike are good too. Where you have them outside of the top 2 of Pac and PBF is a bit of a toss up though.

Although, thinking on it, I'd actually have Ward above Pac on form alone, maybe number 2 is his spot?

Froch can yes, but he didn't win against all of them...

Only lost two, and one to the elite Ward. He'll kill Kessler in a rematch, IMO. Then he only has one loss against a potential ATG. Big statement i know, but who can topple Ward if Frochy can't?

Donaire has Montiel and Darchinyan as well as Mathebula, Vasquez, Sydorenko, Marquez, Narvaez, Martinez and Mthalane all former, present or future world champions at the weight they were beaten. Maybe it's because he's a little man but i'm unsure why some rate Ward higher than him when his record doesn't stack up to favourably. Nishioka is a fight I think he may lose but were he to win it's the icing on the cake and secures the number one spot dependent on Mayweather returning.

Donaire aint no Ward. Never looks quite as dominant. World-class though.

That's what happens when you're fighting 3 classes above where you started and you don't get more dominant than his demolition jobs over world class fighters in Montiel and Darchinyan. Both were a brutal display of perfect counter punching but being a little man he always seems to get overlooked, beating Nishioka should hopefully change that.

I have Donaire on my facebook and he even says himself that he aspires to Ward.

I think putting Ward above Donaire is, in part, down to their recent fights. Nobody would deny that Donaire has had the better career to date, but he's looked a little off-colour in the past eighteen months, whereas Ward has been in the form of his life. In fairness also, you could argue that in those past eighteen months, Ward's competition has been superior to Donaire's, too.

I'd be tempted to keep Nonito a single peg higher than Ward, perhaps, but I don't think anyone slotting Ward in front of him at this moment in time is all that controversial or unjustifiable.

I think when talking p4p its not fair to keep someone's wins from many years ago still in the picture.

Every one of Wards last set of fights have been against excellent opposition and he has disposed them with ease. I honestly think based on recent form he is p4p number 1.

Hoping weights isn't the be all and end all of p4p.

Here, here 88Chris.

If Donaire beats Nishioka (which is not a given) then its going to be incredibly hard to separate them.

True. A high-class problem, that one.

Think you're over rating Wards opposition a tad BF88, no doubting that Kessler, Froch and Dawson are all excellent wins but I don't think we can consider the likes of Green, Miranda or Abraham to be the fighters against which pound for pound stars are made. Donaire hasn't looked at his sparkling best recently but he's still been winning very comfortably and Montiel is the best recent win either of them holds as would Nishioka be.

Can't see a strong argument for anyone other than Mayweather being the top dog, Cotto despite being past his best represents a level of opponent that Ward has yet to face.

When evaluating fighters you have to judge them according to level which is why Abraham is a significant victory for Froch but less so than Ward as they are a level or two apart. Much like Ortiz is a better fighter than many of Wards opponents but is further from Mayweathers level than say Green is to Wards.

I don't think Cotto (After the Margarito fight) is any better than Froch tbh.

Anyway boxing is subjective, so lets just agree to disagree on this one

Cotto is and was an elite level fighter something Froch unfortunately has never been.

Imperial are you drunk? Seriously, are you off your rocker? Froch is P4P top 15, minimum, and he is elite. Wake up Imperial... Smell the coffee...

Elite level is for the very best of the best, the likes of Pacquiao, Mayweather, Marquez, Ward, Donaire and Martinez. For all his qualities Froch doesn't belong at that level which Cotto does.

Cotto today, does not either. How the hell can you say that the Cotto who fights today is elite and the Froch that fights today isn't? Look at their last fights, wow.

You mean Cotto giving Mayweather the toughest fight of his career? I would take giving an all time top ten fighter problems over beating the evidentally vulnerable Bute every day, like I said it's about levels. Cotto as a great fighter has his opposition and performance scrutinised far more than a good fighter like Froch does.

That was not Mayweather's toughest fight, IMO. The one he lost to Castillo was probably tougher.

And how do you know he's an all time great top tenner? I could name ten fighters that most would hold in higher regard than Mayweather. Not doubting his ability, but ATG and inside the top ten? Come on now...

Mayweather is at the very least comfortably in the top 15 of all time and with such lofty praise comes even loftier expectations, he deserves consideration alongside the likes of Whitaker and the Leonards and the like and is as far as i'm concerned above the triumvirate.

triumvirate-- I had to google that word! Don't make me do that again Imperial!


All time top 15? I'm not too sure. I mean, we could argue all day on it but i am not too sure. It doesn't always come down to skill set. I mean he has fought some very over hyped or shot versions of 'supposedly great fighters over the years (ODLH for one).

If he takes on a Bradley or Pac or someone young and live then I'll listen to top 15 talk. Until then I'll google more of your tricky vocab.

Side note: Which other famous boxing legend by the name of Leonard were you referring too? Or are you simply throwing in the odd grammatical error with those weighty words? I sometimes do that too.

Well Emore if you're so certain Mayweather isn't top 10/15 worthy you must surely know who i'm referring to. Hernandes, Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Cotto, Mosley, Marquez and De La Hoya are all IBHOF standard fighters he's beaten with ease (notwithstanding Castillo I). It would be disingenuous of me to assume you've overlooked all this.

'disingenuous ' !!!

How the hell am i supposed to have a conversation with you if every two minutes my eyeballs are made to feel as though they are about to pop out of their sockets.

Xmas is months away... I demand to know who got Imperial a thesaurus!?!?!

You're like Bob Dylan just before his third album. You went away somewhere for a while, left as an average poster, an average player. Then you came back with some sort of Robert Johnson voodoo shi* and blew me away with your verbals.

You been making deals with devil, Imperial?

And yes, it would be disingenuous, for what i know about boxing would shut crack-face Kellerman up for long enough to let whichever opponent be licking HBO's latest diva's arse have a showcase moment of their own without his gibberish ruining fine work.

Hatton went up in weight. Cotto is slightly shot (Mayweather should have fought him years ago). Marquez was like watching a secondary school bully... escape into a primary school playground... and batter a nine-year-old boy. Shane aged over 36 minutes and lost the ability to throw a right-hand. I could go on...

That Kellerman stanza of mine was a bit lacking in punctuation, lol.

And yes i said stanza, for when i write it is poetry, poetry!

TRUSS said so... one time...

As a writer by day I choose to write as simplistic as possible, it requires less effort and thought, of which I do too much of. I do find it fairly humorous that a poster whom prides himself on articulate prose is bamboozled by a few simple words.

As for mayweather, it is commonplace to judge his victories very harshly ignoring the greatness he possesses.

Imperial, i understand your words, i do. You know me, I'm a man who exaggerates all that he feels.

Mayweather,as a name, should always come capitalized. It's simple grammar, Imperial.

And after all, for a man of such greatness surely he deserves that much?

Was he great when he hit his ex-partner?

I'm not concerned about his affairs outside of boxing, what he does with his gloves on in the ring is all that matters.

I fear that Mayweather's left it a little too late to command a top ten spot as things stand, namely because he's danced around the Pacquiao fight for so long. Waltzes in to the top twenty, and probably many people's top fifteen (he's make mine, in any case), but top ten might be a bit of a stretch. Don't see enough on his record to edge him ahead of the Leonards, for instance, and I'd still say that Whitaker and Duran have an edge on him, too. He could certainly have eclipsed the latter two with a win over Pacquiao when it mattered most, but we'll never see that now regardless of whether they fight or not, as Pacquiao is clearly on the slide. Floyd's missed the boat.

Magnificent fighter, though, and I don't think any of the above is a slight against his abilities, which are up there with the very, very best. Just don't think he's quite made the most of them.

He's a curious case much like Ray Leonard where his supreme talent gains him a few spots that his resume would not, I can't have Ray too far ahead of Mayweather if at all because it's a case of four wins against a full elite level career.

Very true, Ghosty. Just not sure that I'd feel comfortable putting Floyd ahead of a man who scored wins over the likes of Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler, all while they were world champions and pretty much all in or around their prime years. Floyd's consistency is a marvel, mind you, as you've alluded to. To win a first world title in 1998 and still be turning out championship-winning performances fourteen years later, regardless of some spells of inactivity here and there, is superb.

We tend to judge Leonard by different measures than any other boxer based on his ability, he has a quartet of great on paper victories but beyond that what do we have Lalonde and Kalule, a fighter of lesser ability wouldn't be troubling the top ten with that record. So if we rate Leonard so highly based on his ability we have to do likewise with Mayweather and Whitaker, the three of them are inseparable with the other Leonard in positions 9-12.

Well I don't think a fighter of lesser ability could get that kind of record to begin with! Regardless of whether said fighter boxed forty or two hundred times as a professional, it would always take one of the most perfect fighting specimens ever to grace the earth to beat the likes of Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler.

The thing is, I don't necessarily think that the second Sugar Ray is the only fighter who benefits from such ranking values (ie, placing emphasis on ability and skill to compensate for a lack of quantity in the 'big wins' department).

Jofre, for example, may have fought some forty-odd times more than Leonard did on the whole, but did his career really feature more significant fights against genuinely elite opponents than Leonard's did? Mike Spinks, likewise, fought a little over thirty times and probably has around five or so standout wins, but his talents in the round as well as his achievement of usurping the Heavyweight champion means that his lack of quantity on that front is often written off as insignificant, too.

Quality over quantity, for me. More often than not, at least. I don't think the likes of Leonard, Whitaker or Mayweather should be marked down because they didn't pad their records with a series of meaningless non-title fights against journeymen in an effort to simply keep busy. It worked for Chavez, Duran and the like, and I have no issue with it, but it's merely an incidental as far as I'm concerned.

Longevity does play a part, aside from the numbers Chavez and Duran were at the top level for years and between them must have near on 50/60 world title fights with very few slip ups. At the highest level it's all about small margins and Mayweathers 20 world title fights against very good opposition plus Marquez and Mosley with no slip ups is a magnificent achievement. That's not to say that what Leonard achieved isn't great but there are many fighters who have a comparable quartet of wins especially when you scrutinise his record as you have to with the best.

Depends what you mean by scrutinising his wins, I suppose. There are a lot of arguments that get dropped in when Leonard's victories come up in discussion; Benitez under trained, Duran not ready after gaining so much weight after their first fight, Hearns ahead on the cards before the stoppage, Hagler 'robbed' along with the ring size, twelve rounds etc.

Personally, I think his wins are often given totally unfounded criticism, to be honest.

Benitez performed well against Leonard and had some defining moments after losing to him, too. Duran can have no excuses and Leonard's performance second time out, though nowhere near his best, was better than people like to give him credit for. Hearns was ahead, but lest we forget, this is a man who was basically never outboxed per se, not even as a Light-Heavyweight. Regardless of how close the Hagler fight was, it was a remarkable achievement for Leonard to even make the final bell in any case. Also, when things such as "he conned Hagler in to taking a twelve-rounder", it's conveniently forgotten that Hagler's two previous fights, against Hearns and Mugabi, had also been scheduled for twelve, rather than fifteen.

Can't agree that "many fighters" can match that quartet of wins to be honest, if we look at the respective conditions of each man when Leonard beat them. The Robinsons, Armstrongs, Charles etc of this world, sure, but outside of that very elite company, who else?

Some great points here.