Wilko for Lions?

First topic message reminder :

The Toulon fly-half, 33, retired from international rugby with England in December and has recently been touted for a coaching role with the Lions.

But Gatland insists Wilkinson, who has won two Lions caps, may travel as a player if he is fit and in form.

The New Zealander, confirmed as Lions boss last week, admitted appointing Wilkinson as a kicking coach may be an option, but refused to rule out taking him to Australia as a player.

"For me, everyone is in contention," Gatland added. "The slate is clean for every player who wants to be considered.

"No one is ruled out or pencilled in. If you are playing well enough, then whoever it is - whether it is Jonny Wilkinson or whoever, it's all about how players are performing for their clubs or countries.

"We've selected players who have been playing well just for their club sides and have done well for the Lions. They don't have to be playing for their countries.

"What is important if they are not playing international rugby is that they have to be coming from a side that is performing particularly well."

I don't see why he wouldn't have a shout, or why he wouldn't want to go?

England are building for a RWC that he won't be part off but the Lions is a one off.

His Lions career is pretty unfulfilled if you ask me and I'm sure he'd love a crack at being part of a winning Lions squad.

I agree Rodders.

I think he would be quite up for the Lions and I think a wise old head such as Wilko would be a great influence on tour.

red_stag wrote:I agree Rodders.

I think he would be quite up for the Lions and I think a wise old head such as Wilko would be a great influence on tour.

Toulon are looking strong this season though, so there's a fair chance Wilko'll be busy with them through to the very end of the French season, impacting availability.

Fly - I totally agree that if a player makes the same mistakes over and over and are still selected it could be a coaching issue, however there is also the posibility that there are no better options out there. For example i would rather have a prop who is unable to pass, but can scrummage than having a prop who is unable pass and unable to scrummage.

I have no problem with Priestland and I am happy to see him playing first choice flyhalf for the Scarlets and Wales, however I am not sure he is the best fly half available to the British and Irish Lions. I would not be suprised if he did go, however I have a feeling that Gats will take Sexton, Hook and then the best one of Priestland/Wilko/Flood/Farrell depending on how their AIs/6ns/HECs go.

Agree with your ending paragraph SS.

The favourites are the international incumbents. On last years form I would say Flood and Sexton are the most likely selections

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

red_stag wrote:I agree Rodders.

I think he would be quite up for the Lions and I think a wise old head such as Wilko would be a great influence on tour.

Toulon are looking strong this season though, so there's a fair chance Wilko'll be busy with them through to the very end of the French season, impacting availability.

Very true but we can cross this bridge when we come to it.

The difficulty is that you choose a squad in late April but it is late May before you know who is in the Top 14 final.

Jonny Be Good

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly - I totally agree that if a player makes the same mistakes over and over and are still selected it could be a coaching issue, however there is also the posibility that there are no better options out there. For example i would rather have a prop who is unable to pass, but can scrummage than having a prop who is unable pass and unable to scrummage.

I have no problem with Priestland and I am happy to see him playing first choice flyhalf for the Scarlets and Wales, however I am not sure he is the best fly half available to the British and Irish Lions. I would not be suprised if he did go, however I have a feeling that Gats will take Sexton, Hook and then the best one of Priestland/Wilko/Flood/Farrell depending on how their AIs/6ns/HECs go.

As much as i'm a fan of Hook, unless he can overtake Priestland as first choice 10 for Wales (which is a possibility) i can't see him going.

Maybe as injury cover like 09

....

Then again with Gatland it's a possibility

gowales wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly - I totally agree that if a player makes the same mistakes over and over and are still selected it could be a coaching issue, however there is also the posibility that there are no better options out there. For example i would rather have a prop who is unable to pass, but can scrummage than having a prop who is unable pass and unable to scrummage.

I have no problem with Priestland and I am happy to see him playing first choice flyhalf for the Scarlets and Wales, however I am not sure he is the best fly half available to the British and Irish Lions. I would not be suprised if he did go, however I have a feeling that Gats will take Sexton, Hook and then the best one of Priestland/Wilko/Flood/Farrell depending on how their AIs/6ns/HECs go.

As much as i'm a fan of Hook, unless he can overtake Priestland as first choice 10 for Wales (which is a possibility) i can't see him going.

Maybe as injury cover like 09

....

Then again with Gatland it's a possibility

I reckon Hook would be in more as utility cover but with him in the squad (I'm not stating what I think of having Hook in/out of the squad) then you don't need 3 FHs, just 2.

go - I am not a Hook fan, I don't rate him as either a flyhalf or as a centre, or as a fullback, or as a tighthead prop. However Gatland does seem to have a bit of a love of Hook, and he does tend to be a bit of a Ryan Jones, not really likely to be involved with the Welsh starting XV unless covering an injury, however most likely to tour with the lions for being able to fill in where required.

Well Gatland has said that he wants to take a smallish squad not surprising at all from his history with Wales, but frustrating on a long tour like the Lions.

So he might take some utility options

gowales wrote:Well Gatland has said that he wants to take a smallish squad not surprising at all from his history with Wales, but frustrating on a long tour like the Lions.

So he might take some utility options

Well nowadays players can come in as needed rather than go along on tour to be another logistic that needs to be watered, fed, moved and bedded..... (ahem, on his own of course). But today it's always about so-and-so gets injured either in training or in a game and he's being sent home and so-and-so is coming out on the next flight to replace him. Modern travel means standby players at home is logistically a better solution than a heavily overloaded tour bus.

It still takes 24 hours to get to Australia though...

Yeah...and if they absolutley NEED that guy who can only get there after 24 hours, if they can't handle the pressure without him, if there is nothing in the touring group that can be rejigged and reworked as they wait for him, then perhaps the Lions needn't really go at all.

24 hours is a long time on a plane but not all that long in a week.

HERSH wrote:I think Wilko will only go if he has a shout at the starting Test No10 shirt, not as a midweek squad member.

He has nothing to prove on the International stage IMO.

If he liked the look of the squad being assembled and thought that squad (with him in it) stood a chance of winning the Tour. might that entice him to go, even just as a squad member. It would be ticking another item off the list of accomplishments for his career.

I actually forgot about Hook, I think there is a fair chance he will go as utility cover but not as one of the 3 fly halves.

I honestly think there will be a spot for Jonny if he wants it. The other places will be between Flood, Sexton and Priestland and whoever performs best between now and February.

Could Dan Biggar be a dark horse?

Dan Biggar and Tovey would be tank outsiders for the tour but are possibilities.

Steffan Jones has probably been the form flyhalf in Wales the last two weeks though.

That said they are no more likely to get the chance than Jackson or madrigal who have been the better tens in the RP12 so far.

The only 10 that is nailed on is correctly Sexton. Biggar travelling is not the silliest thing I've ever heard but I think that Flood or Farrell is a much more likely option.

Laidlaw should travel as cover for 9 - lots of Scotland fans have him pegged as a better 9 than a 10 but he's the only current player I can think of who is genuinely test quality in both positions.

The other interesting question involving an international retiree is Nathan Hines. He and Gray were a high watermark in Scotland lock combos in recent years and if he continues to play well as a starter in a Clermont team that is currently looking very good value indeed (they are unbeaten in 45 consecutive home games, which is amazing), then who's to say that he won't travel?

Stranger things have happened.

I think the only Welsh 10 with a chance is Priestland - don't think the rest have the experience, or demonstrated enough international form to challenge the other 10s from other countries.

That said, Priestland will have to rediscover his form if he wants a spot.

Hines is a good call, I'm assuming Gray is nailed on, will POC still have the legs to tour? Ryan Jones might tour as a utility back (had some good form last season). but Hines would be good too, lots of other options though.

Rodders not a chance that we will see three specialist flyhalves AND James Hook.

I could really see Sexton, Wilkinson, Hook. There are tough decisions everywhere.

Assuming he takes a 39 man squad you are probably looking at:

Loosehead x 3
Tighthead x 3
Hooker x 3
Second Row x 5
Verstile Lock/Blindside x 1
Blindside x 2
Openside x 2
Number 8 x 2
Versatile Backrow x 1
Scrumhalf x 3
Flyhalf x 2
Versatile Flyhalf x 1
Centre x 4
Winger x 4
Versatile Outside Back x 1
Fullback x 2

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think the only Welsh 10 with a chance is Priestland - don't think the rest have the experience, or demonstrated enough international form to challenge the other 10s from other countries.

That said, Priestland will have to rediscover his form if he wants a spot.

Hines is a good call, I'm assuming Gray is nailed on, will POC still have the legs to tour? Ryan Jones might tour as a utility back (had some good form last season). but Hines would be good too, lots of other options though.

I was going to laugh but knowing Gats I would not rule him taking Ryan Jones out as a centre.

No reason at all why Hines couldn't make it. He's a fantastic player.

My personal opinion, and I know some will disagree, is that O'Connell and Gray are some distance ahead of the other locks, when fit, but beyond that its pretty tight for the other spots with a lot of good players around.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think the only Welsh 10 with a chance is Priestland - don't think the rest have the experience, or demonstrated enough international form to challenge the other 10s from other countries.

That said, Priestland will have to rediscover his form if he wants a spot.

Hines is a good call, I'm assuming Gray is nailed on, will POC still have the legs to tour? Ryan Jones might tour as a utility back (had some good form last season). but Hines would be good too, lots of other options though.

I was going to laugh but knowing Gats I would not rule him taking Ryan Jones out as a centre.

oops - that obviously should read utility forward. But as you say Gats could well play Ryan at centre and Hook at lock!

Considering Wilkinson is/was already behind two or three English players is he realistically a contender for anything more than a kicking coach?

Might be a very good one of those one day.

Looks like O'Gara has jumped on the band wagon

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/169663.html?addata=chromium

Chill out sun you aven't got a chance


For those who need reminding..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCo5n1QmaoM

...Never Again

gowales wrote:Looks like O'Gara has jumped on the band wagon

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/169663.html?addata=chromium

Chill out sun you aven't got a chance


For those who need reminding..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCo5n1QmaoM

...Never Again

maestegmafia wrote:Considering Wilkinson is/was already behind two or three English players is he realistically a contender for anything more than a kicking coach?

Might be a very good one of those one day.

Normal international coaches have to keep one eye on developing for World Cups - so the experienced player with only a few miles left in the clock are always at risk.

Lions coaches have only the immediate future to worry about, and very little preparation time to get everyone up to speed. In many ways it makes sense to make pragmatic choices. You have to be carefull though - International Rugby is at a higher intensity than club rugby and players who have retired from the Int. game would be at risk of being off the pace vs Australia. Also i am sure we all remember Woodward's selections of 2005. Not only was he overly trusting in the players he knew, his decision to select players past their best backfired.

Now specifically to Wilkinson. It would take an injury crisis of epic proportions before I would want him to play for England again (Burns, Cipriani, Farrell, Flood. Ford would all have to be injured).

In a one off for you life test, I would still have Farrell and Flood ahead of him. Thus when I consider a Lions party and add in Hook, Laidlaw, Priestland and Sexton he is someway down my list.

I do understand why people are championing his cause.

Of course they are wrong

Tindall nominated as tour social secretary !

gregortree wrote:Tindall nominated as tour social secretary !

Entertainment officer

No O'Gara for me. Unless he single-handedly wins Munster the double this season I can't see how he'd possibly make the plane or why anyone would want him to. No disrespect for the man in his prime but there comes a point where you have to say enough is enough. I struggle to see what O'Gara has left to offer any side.

Wilko I'd have less to complain about provided he justifies his place by being in form at the time of selection. He's been that much of a legend in the past that it'll be worth it if he can roll back the years, hopefully the prospect of touring will motivate him to do so.

Looks like the Lions have had the right all along to force foreign clubs to release players for the tour. Rejoice!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19531991

Sure why don't we throw in The Man Who Tried To Retire (a few times in one season) But Couldn't - Shane Williams, if legendary status is a qualifying standard then let's throw Shane back into the mix too.

I think this Lions trip might turn into a bit of a Dad's Army All Stars with Mr McGeechan as mascot.

I simply cannot see Wilkinson being invloved at all with the Lions. Did he not say that his international playing days are over not so long back.

No i think wilkinson will stay in Toulon to be honest.

SecretFly wrote:Sure why don't we throw in The Man Who Tried To Retire (a few times in one season) But Couldn't - Shane Williams, if legendary status is a qualifying standard then let's throw Shane back into the mix too.

I think that is the plan. Shane can haave hsi 'final goodbye' match and score the series winning try in the last play of the last test.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:........Shane can haave hsi 'final goodbye' match and score the series winning try in the last play of the last test.

Again?

SecretFly wrote:Sure why don't we throw in The Man Who Tried To Retire (a few times in one season) But Couldn't - Shane Williams, if legendary status is a qualifying standard then let's throw Shane back into the mix too.

I think this Lions trip might turn into a bit of a Dad's Army All Stars with Mr McGeechan as mascot.

You're right, let's implement a new under-30 policy and ban anyone who doesn't meet the criteria from touring for the plain and simple reason that they've aged. I mean, it's pretty much a given that anyone over 30 can't be that good a player any more isn't it!? Sorry messrs Wilkinson, O'Connell, O'Driscoll, Jones etc, congratulations on outplaying all around you but you're old now so tough. Here, some congratulatory wheelchairs for your troubles! What's that? You can still walk just fine? Sorry, it's the law, old men must remain in a wheelchair at all times!

Knowsit17 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Sure why don't we throw in The Man Who Tried To Retire (a few times in one season) But Couldn't - Shane Williams, if legendary status is a qualifying standard then let's throw Shane back into the mix too.

I think this Lions trip might turn into a bit of a Dad's Army All Stars with Mr McGeechan as mascot.

You're right, let's implement a new under-30 policy and ban anyone who doesn't meet the criteria from touring for the plain and simple reason that they've aged. I mean, it's pretty much a given that anyone over 30 can't be that good a player any more isn't it!? Sorry messrs Wilkinson, O'Connell, O'Driscoll, Jones etc, congratulations on outplaying all around you but you're old now so tough. Here, some congratulatory wheelchairs for your troubles! What's that? You can still walk just fine? Sorry, it's the law, old men must remain in a wheelchair at all times!

Good man, I knew my cause was a just one!

Down with the Grey Curlies Legion, say I! Many campaigns you have all fought and, yay, with such valor, and heavy is the debt we owe thee. But alas, the cloud sinks on thy deeds and thy creaking merits. Shrivelled is the name I now call thee - begone and leave the realm to the virile youth of wonky sculpted hair and ye overcooked tattoos.

This campaign is off to a fantastic start, in all fairness

Aye, the wrinkled and rusty, as divine and glorious in 03 and 05 all those centuries back as they might have been, must now form a circle which we shall refer to as the Ancients. They shall sit around a dusty table in a crumbling darkened room lit only by torches in brackets protruding from the stone walls. They shall not eat or sleep, they shall only meditate and speak in mystical, Yoda-like metaphores when called upon. Wise shall be their counsel and eerie their chanting when tasked with performing a ritual designed to aid the Lions or impede their enemies.

Verily, this is but the beginnings of a very Crusade.

Hark ye Aussies - we come for blood....and for the beer and tans of course

BTW, just in case this rubbish I utter bizarrely gets me a real reputation! (it does happen) - I of course declare that I'm not genuinely anti-wrinkle brigade at all if they still have it, as I'm one of them myself now (only in theory based on my age and all, not anything to do with my still radiant good looks ). No, Jonny and Shane and expecially me old King of Kings, O'Driscoll, can certainly join the tour again with my blessing but I do reserve the right to poke fun where fun poking openings I detect.

Don't try to hide it Fly, we all know your agenda now

I expect the starting XV for the first test will be decided primarily by form in the warm-ups more so than prior to the tour. That was how Roberts broke into the test side to form a lethal partnership with O'Driscoll, had it been based on the previous 6N then Flutey would have most certainly been the one.

We're in a great position, those pesky Aussies won't know what hit em

They've just beaten Wales 3-0 at home, and SA despite everyone saying they have no form. It seems like everyone underestimate Australia even when they say they don't want to underestimate them.

anotherworldofpain wrote:They've just beaten Wales 3-0 at home, and SA despite everyone saying they have no form. It seems like everyone underestimate Australia even when they say they don't want to underestimate them.

Nobody underestimates Australia - not that doing so would be a crime. But nobody underestimates them, some just think they can be beaten. Most sides can be - in fact, the All Blacks are the only side that look untouchable right now and we all know even that is untrue as no side is invincible.

So Australia are beatable and saying so is perfectly ok.

The ABs are clearly not playing at their best, have a lot of new players and some unsettled positions.
Ireland took them close and they never settled against Argentina (who are not very highly ranked).
You guys who go on about them being untouchable are the same ones who said we would walk over France in the final.

We didn't walk over France then and we still have to play away to SA and Arg. While we expect to win those games we could still lose them and I don't expect them to be hidings.

nganboy wrote:The ABs are clearly not playing at their best, have a lot of new players and some unsettled positions.
Ireland took them close and they never settled against Argentina (who are not very highly ranked).
You guys who go on about them being untouchable are the same ones who said we would walk over France in the final.

We didn't walk over France then and we still have to play away to SA and Arg. While we expect to win those games we could still lose them and I don't expect them to be hidings.

God, nganboy, some New Zealanders can be sometimes way too sensitive - and maybe that comes with success, the expectation of success or the fear of losing success - but don't put words in my mouth about what 'we' guys think. I said straight what I think, I don't need it clarified and I only speak for myself, not the whole NH. The rest of them can speak for themselves.

I said almost the same thing you said actually. I said Australia are a side that can be beaten - not because we underestimate their ability but because it happens - sides get beat, even the very good ones - it's doable, it's nature. I said the only side that "look" untouchable in this world climate seems to be the All Blacks - and I went on "we all know even that is untrue as no side is invincible". That's pretty clear in my book what all that means - New Zealand are the best of the bunch - on paper - but they're not untouchable - "we all know that is untrue".

But you often get this when you mention the All Blacks - damned if you praise them (Hey! we have to work at this, there are quite a number of sides that could take us if we drop our guard) and damned if you criticise them (Hey! It'll take a lot more than words from a NHer to hurt the All Blacks, so if you've got a game in you, come challenge us and we'll see who's top dog).

Meanwhile, in the real world, the All Blacks are the best team on the planet just now but no, I agree with you, that doesn't mean they can't be beaten.

Wilkinson, Tindall, Henson huh. Who's next Dan Parks

SecretFly wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:They've just beaten Wales 3-0 at home, and SA despite everyone saying they have no form. It seems like everyone underestimate Australia even when they say they don't want to underestimate them.

Nobody underestimates Australia - not that doing so would be a crime. But nobody underestimates them, some just think they can be beaten. Most sides can be - in fact, the All Blacks are the only side that look untouchable right now and we all know even that is untrue as no side is invincible.

So Australia are beatable and saying so is perfectly ok.

A lot of England fans seem to think Aus are pushovers and genuinely don't believe them to be the 2nd best in the world. Well looks like they beat SA for the 5th time in a row and proved it. I'm quite looking forward to Australia beating England into the dirt this autumn.

Morgannwg wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:They've just beaten Wales 3-0 at home, and SA despite everyone saying they have no form. It seems like everyone underestimate Australia even when they say they don't want to underestimate them.

Nobody underestimates Australia - not that doing so would be a crime. But nobody underestimates them, some just think they can be beaten. Most sides can be - in fact, the All Blacks are the only side that look untouchable right now and we all know even that is untrue as no side is invincible.

So Australia are beatable and saying so is perfectly ok.

A lot of England fans seem to think Aus are pushovers and genuinely don't believe them to be the 2nd best in the world. Well looks like they beat SA for the 5th time in a row and proved it. I'm quite looking forward to Australia beating England into the dirt this autumn.

Just shows what great sides England, Ireland and Scotland are to have beaten them last time they played I guess.
The third and fourth best teams in the world seem to struggle against them, maybe Aus just raise their game for SA and WAL?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:They've just beaten Wales 3-0 at home, and SA despite everyone saying they have no form. It seems like everyone underestimate Australia even when they say they don't want to underestimate them.

Nobody underestimates Australia - not that doing so would be a crime. But nobody underestimates them, some just think they can be beaten. Most sides can be - in fact, the All Blacks are the only side that look untouchable right now and we all know even that is untrue as no side is invincible.

So Australia are beatable and saying so is perfectly ok.

A lot of England fans seem to think Aus are pushovers and genuinely don't believe them to be the 2nd best in the world. Well looks like they beat SA for the 5th time in a row and proved it. I'm quite looking forward to Australia beating England into the dirt this autumn.

Just shows what great sides England, Ireland and Scotland are to have beaten them last time they played I guess.
The third and fourth best teams in the world seem to struggle against them, maybe Aus just raise their game for SA and WAL?

I mention SA because they are officially the 3rd best of the top 3, and are the team England fans claimed were joint best with NZ (but that was probably just another excuse for losing to them). Not particulary hard to beat England though I guess, unless you're French. Who is the fourth best team in the world? I didn't think there was, there's the top 3 and then the rest.

Morgannwg wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:They've just beaten Wales 3-0 at home, and SA despite everyone saying they have no form. It seems like everyone underestimate Australia even when they say they don't want to underestimate them.

Nobody underestimates Australia - not that doing so would be a crime. But nobody underestimates them, some just think they can be beaten. Most sides can be - in fact, the All Blacks are the only side that look untouchable right now and we all know even that is untrue as no side is invincible.

So Australia are beatable and saying so is perfectly ok.

A lot of England fans seem to think Aus are pushovers and genuinely don't believe them to be the 2nd best in the world. Well looks like they beat SA for the 5th time in a row and proved it. I'm quite looking forward to Australia beating England into the dirt this autumn.

Just shows what great sides England, Ireland and Scotland are to have beaten them last time they played I guess.
The third and fourth best teams in the world seem to struggle against them, maybe Aus just raise their game for SA and WAL?

I mention SA because they are officially the 3rd best of the top 3, and are the team England fans claimed were joint best with NZ (but that was probably just another excuse for losing to them). Not particulary hard to beat England though I guess, unless you're French. Who is the fourth best team in the world? I didn't think there was, there's the top 3 and then the rest.

That's funny Morgannwg - I seem to remember a lot of threads of debate on how a certain team might "break into the top four spot" if they were very very good and beat Australia 3-0 on tour...

You mean get the 4th IRB group seeding for the next RWC, you must have misread. But then again, your English can only get better, right?