RFU say NO to PRL deal with BT...!

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Sep 2012, 12:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Just in...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9544678/RFU-refuses-to-endorse-Premiership-Rugbys-bumper-152-million-TV-rights-deal-with-BT-vision.html

The RFU issued a statement laced with conciliatory intent, with chief executive Ian Ritchie seemingly eager to seek a resolution between the warring parties. But the governing body was unequivocal over the question of consent for the European broadcasting rights.
“The RFU will continue to liaise with all stakeholders, in order to help reach a conclusion which benefits all,” said the RFU in a statement last night. “While the RFU has not given consent to Premiership Rugby to grant European Broadcasting Rights, we believe it is important to work with them and with all parties involved to find common ground. We anticipate that this process will begin at the ERC stakeholder meeting on Tuesday.”

by AlastairW Mon 17 Sep 2012, 1:52 pm

TJ wrote:If Edinburgh are not in the HC then they will lose 25-50% of their playing budget or thereabouts. thus they will have to shed many of their players especially the stars. thus they will never be able to qualify again. this is why I am so angry about these proposals and why they are so short-sighted. Italian teams will be similarly affected. welsh teams are also in financial trouble. Edinburghs cup run last year has meant a significant increase in budget - the money is really that essential to them.

See, put forward an arguement as opposed to spitting out insults and you get discussion back.

Then they should be assured they are competitive enough as opposed to just being dished hand outs. Look at The Chiefs, who have garnered respect across the land, they went from a Championship side, to Premiership, to HC Rugby. They had a solid business and developement plan; money comes from success, not the other way around.

If the format of the European competition changes and it is the top 6 of the RABO that go through, then Edinburgh best make sure they have the business and development plan in place to hit top 6 and get in. Relying on pay outs from Europe and not relying on solid sports business acumen is asking for trouble in the professional age.

Scotland produces a great player base, in fact i had the pleasure of watching Richie Gray tackle his way throgh most of my team at the weekend. Keep your home grown talent, maybe centrally contract them, there are a load of different and constructive ways to approach the issue than beating the dead horse of 'blame it all on the English'.

by Kingshu Mon 17 Sep 2012, 1:55 pm

sorry reposting this so it doesn't get lost at bottom of page 3

TJ I felt sorry for the SRU untill you came along.

Most Scottish fans are accepting that they will be losing out, I think its fairly fair.

Think about it.

The SRU currently get 13% for entering 2 teams, the IRFU and WRU get 13% as well for entering 3 teams each.

Is it fair that the SRU get the same amount as the WRU and IRFU for entering less teams?

When the SRU disbanded the Boarders, they also lost out on ERC bargaining power.

Personally I think the SRU may have gotten more than they deserved for the last few years and it is being addressed.

I feel sorry for Scottish fans, as this has come about from the SRU being badly managed and disbanding the Boarders, and a reduction in H-cup qualifacation has been building since then.

Feel more sorry for the FIR who haven't had the chances the SRU had. But still they have been getting 11% of the participation part of the pot. (2% less than the IRFU not including knock out round bonuses) since the H-cup began, what have they been doing with it???

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 2:01 pm

del;eted

I cannot be bothered any more. the HC money is essential to pro rugby in Scotland and Italy. without the HC money then there can be no pro rugby nrth of the border - why do you think the border team folded? No money!

by Toadfish Mon 17 Sep 2012, 2:06 pm

TJ wrote:
TrailApe wrote:

Agan - do you really want to see Scotladn and italy ended as a force in club and international rugby and walse badly impoverished? do not be fooled - thats what this would lead to. a 4 N not 6N and only maybe 4 non english / french clubbs playing in europe..

I don't see how the Franglo teams have any responsibility for the upkeep of teams from other nations. If the RFU managed to get more cash from the actions of the PRL, I would much prefer to see it going into the lower echelons of English rugby than spent elswhere. The Championship is crying out for extra funding and that's where my team is at the minute, so don't ask me to cry for other teams from other unions. The IRFU seem to be quids in under the current rules - why don't they subsidise the Scots and the Italians, they play in the same league so surely its in their best interests to do so?

SWo you are happy to see the end of pro rugby in scotland and Italy with the end of the HC as a europe wide cup and the end of the 6N? that is where this will lead. the HC money is essential to keeping Scotland as a competative pro rugby nation.

OK so here is another way to look at it. What would you think of a new agreement formed which guaranteed the Rabo unions the exact reward that they are getting currently, regardless of how many teams they had competing in the HC. The trade off is that they have to let the French and English take the lead in negotiating broadcasting rights and share any amount over and above the current deal?

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 2:16 pm

Not really - as if the english clubs become relatively richer they can buy success beyond what they do at the moment and they would simply push up the price of players. The smaller nations clubs have to be able to compete financially. the current sytem allows this to some extent

by Toadfish Mon 17 Sep 2012, 2:28 pm

TJ wrote:Not really - as if the english clubs become relatively richer they can buy success beyond what they do at the moment and they would simply push up the price of players. The smaller nations clubs have to be able to compete financially. the current sytem allows this to some extent

I imagine this sort of attitude is what has caused France and England to become so frustrated with the ERC.

by Kingshu Mon 17 Sep 2012, 2:35 pm

TJ I see your ignoring my post above,

where I reason why it is the Rabo nations that will take the hit, 50% to the parciptation pot compared to France and Engalnds 25% each.

Why it is the SRU and FIR that will suffer most, its up to you to counter act the arguement, because as I see it its pretty clear.

The IRFU, and WRU will come out of this slightly worse off, as well.

(before you start I'm an Ulster fan, and a realist and see than compremise is nessary)

by TrailApe Mon 17 Sep 2012, 3:01 pm

the HC money is essential to pro rugby in Scotland and Italy.

Newcastle, which is a smaller city than Edinburgh or Glasgow and has the same problem with Soccer, manages to keep a pro team going, and we haven't been in the HK for years. We are fighting in the Championship at the minute, thats the way it goes, if your results and crowds don't bring in the ££££ you end up in the lower levels.

Does Scotland and Italy have a divine right to recieve HC money? - what about the other european countries who don't get a sniff of this money - hell their Unions don't even have anything like the 6N to fill their treasuries.

This is what sticks in my craw. There is the accusations of selfishness and bullying aimed at the English clubs because they want more money. They are told they are ruining the future of "European" rugby.

Funny isn't it that those that roar with the most outrage are those that want to keep the current status quo of a very elitist top tier (The HC) with an almost pointless 2nd tier (The Amlin) and a non existent 3rd tier. Of course they want the status quo to exist because they are guarenteed a place there - with all of the kudos and financial rewards that go with it.

I think the cartel of ERC with the 'priveledged' unions taking the most of the ££££ should be consigned to history and a new pan european league set up.

by SecretFly Mon 17 Sep 2012, 3:10 pm

TrailApe wrote:

Funny isn't it that those that roar with the most outrage are those that want to keep the current status quo of a very elitist top tier (The HC) with an almost pointless 2nd tier (The Amlin) and a non existent 3rd tier. Of course they want the status quo to exist because they are guarenteed a place there - with all of the kudos and financial rewards that go with it.

I think the cartel of ERC with the 'priveledged' unions taking the most of the ££££ should be consigned to history and a new pan european league set up.

? As are the English and French guaranteed their place? Do you envisage a new cartel that would not include the French and English? Do you believe they'll allow themselves to be talked into a 3rd tier of competition for the good of an inclusive European ideal?

Very good of you to be so open minded about it all - Trail, I'll drop that thought off at the ERC offices this evening. England and France don't want to be automatically at the top (1st tier) 'privileged' level of any future pan-European league.

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 3:33 pm

Kingshu wrote:TJ I see your ignoring my post above,

where I reason why it is the Rabo nations that will take the hit, 50% to the parciptation pot compared to France and Engalnds 25% each.

Why it is the SRU and FIR that will suffer most, its up to you to counter act the arguement, because as I see it its pretty clear.

The IRFU, and WRU will come out of this slightly worse off, as well.

(before you start I'm an Ulster fan, and a realist and see than compremise is nessary)

I have answered this

Why is a compromise needed at all? The english clubs are being selfish and greedy and acting in their own interest only - and only in the short term interest as well. If their proposals are followed the HC and the 6N will become lessor competitions in a few years and thus less attractive to the broadcasters and sponsers reducing the money available to all.

No compromise needed at all. tell the english clubs to take a running jump. A smaller pot yes - but without the eternal carping from the english clubs and without them taking the lions share. The french will go with the rest of the nations. Why will the SRU and FIR suffer most ? because their pro teams are the most precarious without any chance of viability without the HC money. Take away half their funding and they will never be competitive. Welsh have more teams and greater finances - might be able to survive better. I don't know enough about the irish to comment.

Twice in recent rugby history the english clubs / rfu have tried this sort of move and twice they have been forced to back down. Its posturing and attempted bullying and is not in the best interests of the game. it should be resisted by everyone who loves rugby. the outcome of adopting the English clubs proposals would be the end of pro rugby in Scotland and Italy and grave financial difficulties in wales and perhaps ireland and certainly in the case of Scotland the end of Scotland as a top nation being at all competitive in the 6N.

again I say - tell the english clubs to go and jump - a HC without them would be better than an HC containing english french clubs with a weak token welsh and irish presence. the english clubs will back down if confronted - thats what bullies do

If you love rugby then do not support these illconsidered selfish and unfair proposals.

by Kingshu Mon 17 Sep 2012, 3:50 pm

TJ your argument is totally basedon that the changes are all Englands idea.

This is just wrong, it was the French that first served notice, that they would leave if changes were not made, the English agreed and said they would leave as well.

England AND FRANCE will not back down, they both want the changes. if it was only England I may thend to agree, but the act is both England and France want the changes.

So please stop mentioning solely England.

So a compromise is needed if a European cup is to continue.

If you want to follow the idea, of not giving anything, then the article "what next for the Rabo nations without the H-cup" is for you, as if there isn't some give and take, there will be no H-cup (remember its not just the English, threatening, but the French as well).

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 17 Sep 2012, 3:55 pm

Its also based on the idea that any changes to an unfair system are inherently evil, whereas maintaining the current set up which isnt working in any of its intended goals is somehow virtuous

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 3:59 pm

Don't kid yourself. this IS all about england. France will not wreck the HC in pursuit of their own greedy agenda. Remember the french are still controlled by the union - not by a small coterie of clubs. this is the major issue - the PRL are just representing a small number of clubs.

its my assessment of the situation that the French will be far more resonable and able to take a wider view -

so yes - call their bluff. I am quite happy to play a european cup without english representation. and whats nmore if the PRL insist on recking th eHC throw them out of the 6N and WC as well.

Its

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:00 pm

TJ wrote:No compromise needed at all. tell the english clubs to take a running jump. A smaller pot yes - but without the eternal carping from the english clubs and without them taking the lions share.

That's fine, if you are happy that the smaller pot will be sufficient to fund everyone on the way you want. However, you also argue that absolute reductions in revenue from European competition, or even absolute gains but relative reductions, will be the death of professional rugby in Scotland and Italy. I don't see how those two opinions tally.

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:01 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its also based on the idea that any changes to an unfair system are inherently evil, whereas maintaining the current set up which isnt working in any of its intended goals is somehow virtuous

the current system is quite fair and works very well indeed. one of its intended goals is to encourage and support the ptro game in the smaller countries - working very well indeed. the beleating from the english clubs is a very unedifying spectacle indeed.

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:03 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
TJ wrote:No compromise needed at all. tell the english clubs to take a running jump. A smaller pot yes - but without the eternal carping from the english clubs and without them taking the lions share.
That's fine, if you are happy that the smaller pot will be sufficient to fund everyone on the way you want. However, you also argue that absolute reductions in revenue from European competition, or even absolute gains but relative reductions, will be the death of professional rugby in Scotland and Italy. I don't see how those two opinions tally.

I think it would be - I think the scottish clubs would end up with a similar amount of money - and i also believe that the english clubs would bnot go for it anyway. telling the PRL to play by the rules or to go away would soon bring them back to the table. the english proposals would mean massive reductions in the money the scottish clubs would get - as wiuthing 5 years there would be no scottish clubs in the HC ever again.

by GunsGerms Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:04 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its also based on the idea that any changes to an unfair system are inherently evil, whereas maintaining the current set up which isnt working in any of its intended goals is somehow virtuous

The Heineken cup is probably one of the best if not the best rugby tournament in world rugby gets huge crowds and tv viewership. Just because its been about 7 years since a English club won doesnt mean it doesnt work. I think the bigger issue is with the AP and how it is set up. It is dated and needs a shake up not the Hcup.

by SecretFly Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:05 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its also based on the idea that any changes to an unfair system are inherently evil, whereas maintaining the current set up which isnt working in any of its intended goals is somehow virtuous

What is/was the intended goals, Peter?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:09 pm

TJ wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its also based on the idea that any changes to an unfair system are inherently evil, whereas maintaining the current set up which isnt working in any of its intended goals is somehow virtuous

the current system is quite fair and works very well indeed. one of its intended goals is to encourage and support the ptro game in the smaller countries - working very well indeed. the beleating from the english clubs is a very unedifying spectacle indeed.

What is fair about a system that makes clubs able to generate large sums of revenue fund ones that dominate the competition on the pitch?

As for the "smaller nations" remind me how many finalists Wales, Scotland and Italy provided between them in recent years? Because of the current system they arent even competitive the second tier competition which is almost universally ignored anyway

The current system hasnt even managed to make the HC the premium competition in France, and arguably England too. Most seasons there are big clubs from across Europe who make little effort to progress in it, concentrating resources instead on their domestic leagues ( Id include Ospreys last year in that)

If there were no problems with the current system why would so many have been calling for changes for so many years (including the Irish who have been moaning about the number of spots for welsh regions since the 5th one went bust)

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its also based on the idea that any changes to an unfair system are inherently evil, whereas maintaining the current set up which isnt working in any of its intended goals is somehow virtuous

What is/was the intended goals, Peter?

Letting the english win obviously RFU say NO to PRL deal with BT...! - Page 4 1347041234

by Kingshu Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:10 pm

TJ wrote:Don't kid yourself. this IS all about england. France will not wreck the HC in pursuit of their own greedy agenda. Remember the french are still controlled by the union - not by a small coterie of clubs. this is the major issue - the PRL are just representing a small number of clubs.

its my assessment of the situation that the French will be far more resonable and able to take a wider view -

so yes - call their bluff. I am quite happy to play a european cup without english representation. and whats nmore if the PRL insist on recking th eHC throw them out of the 6N and WC as well.

Its

you'r living in a fantasy land TJ, if your ignoring the French threat.

What your saying is the French went "we've serving notice that we're leaving the H-cup, unless qualifation changes are made, a third teir set up, less teams, etc" "we'll either expand top14 or have anglo-French cup instead"

What you think will happen is they are going to change their minds and go, actually we want to stay with now of the changes we wanted put in place??

Their will have to be some compromise to keep the French, they haven't threatened to leave for a laugh.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:13 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its also based on the idea that any changes to an unfair system are inherently evil, whereas maintaining the current set up which isnt working in any of its intended goals is somehow virtuous

The Heineken cup is probably one of the best if not the best rugby tournament in world rugby gets huge crowds and tv viewership. Just because its been about 7 years since a English club won doesnt mean it doesnt work. I think the bigger issue is with the AP and how it is set up. It is dated and needs a shake up not the Hcup.

Theres regular season Jeff games that get bigger crowds than some HC finals do
The French clubs get bigger average crowds and bigger revenue for their league games than the HC does, hence why they wanted to expand the T14 further and reduce the number of HC games.
Maybe its the Rabo that has the problems

by red_stag Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:13 pm

TJ, methinks you have lost it pal.

Kingshu sums it up well. The French are a massive factor.

It is not all about evil England.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:14 pm

Kingshu wrote:
TJ wrote:Don't kid yourself. this IS all about england. France will not wreck the HC in pursuit of their own greedy agenda. Remember the french are still controlled by the union - not by a small coterie of clubs. this is the major issue - the PRL are just representing a small number of clubs.

its my assessment of the situation that the French will be far more resonable and able to take a wider view -

so yes - call their bluff. I am quite happy to play a european cup without english representation. and whats nmore if the PRL insist on recking th eHC throw them out of the 6N and WC as well.

Its

you'r living in a fantasy land TJ, if your ignoring the French threat.

What your saying is the French went "we've serving notice that we're leaving the H-cup, unless qualifation changes are made, a third teir set up, less teams, etc" "we'll either expand top14 or have anglo-French cup instead"

What you think will happen is they are going to change their minds and go, actually we want to stay with now of the changes we wanted put in place??

Their will have to be some compromise to keep the French, they haven't threatened to leave for a laugh.

I dunno ...I could half imagine some bunch of frogs lolweeing themsleves reading all this bickering

by TrailApe Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:18 pm

its my assessment of the situation that the French will be far more resonable and able to take a wider view

TJ mate - you are wasted here, get yourselfg post haste to the UN and get that analytical mind of yours onto the real problems of the world.

England and France don't want to be automatically at the top (1st tier) 'privileged' level of any future pan-European league..

SecretFly if a pan european league was set up and success was based on results, then if the English clubs were consigned to lower echelons because they were not good enough - well fair enough. However a fair competition would not have anyone 'automatically' placed anywhere - execpt possibly at the inception - allow the 6N Unions to have their darling clubs in at a certain level, but then if they failed on the pitch then they would drop down the ranks.

Now that would be a proper European competition wouldn't it - the top clubs fighting each other because they deserved to be there, not because their Union wanted representation for status purposes.

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:20 pm

My goodness some of you live in cloud cookoo land. the French will not destroy the HC.

French interests are not anything like aligned with the PRL - they are far more aligned with the rest of the unions.

This is all about England, the power struggle between the PRL and the RFU, the PRL putting their own narrow interests over the interests of the wider game.

the PRL are completely isolated here without even the support of the RFU.

by broadlandboy Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:25 pm

TJ
What makes you think that the French wont leave considering that they have already given notice?
The LNR have more in common with the PRL (as both represent clubs rather than regions run by Unions)

by SecretFly Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:30 pm

TrailApe wrote:

SecretFly if a pan european league was set up and success was based on results, then if the English clubs were consigned to lower echelons because they were not good enough - well fair enough. However a fair competition would not have anyone 'automatically' placed anywhere - execpt possibly at the inception - allow the 6N Unions to have their darling clubs in at a certain level, but then if they failed on the pitch then they would drop down the ranks.

Now that would be a proper European competition wouldn't it - the top clubs fighting each other because they deserved to be there, not because their Union wanted representation for status purposes.

But such a system would never happen, Trail. It's fantasy. Either English and French sides are competing at the top, or the pan-European competition with a Top dies abruptly and those two blocks again suggest the competition needs an overhaul as they're putting in most money.

The idea that you buy a seat at a 'quality' table on accunt of you having a big chequebook is many things but not fair or "proper". The analogy I place before you is the Eurovision (of all things) A certain number of countries always 'qualify' by right in that ...em shall we call it singing?... competition because they simply contribute most money to it. That might appear like a viable business reason, but it in no way represents anything that you could pin a tag of 'fairness' too as regard a competition.

England and France will not tolerate being outside the money loop of 1st tier ... if they ever drifted that way, the rules would be torn up and we'd all be back at the negotiating table. And we'd be back to just who is 'privileged' and who isn't; who is more equal than others?

by GunsGerms Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:31 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Theres regular season Jeff games that get bigger crowds than some HC finals do
The French clubs get bigger average crowds and bigger revenue for their league games than the HC does, hence why they wanted to expand the T14 further and reduce the number of HC games.
Maybe its the Rabo that has the problems

The Heineken cup final is more or less sold out every year. So what if the AP gets a large attendance every year when a match is played in wembley. The semi of the heineken cup in '09 broke the record for a club rugby match with 82k attendance. This involved two Rabo teams. I believe that this was bigger than the Harlequins match last year.

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:38 pm

broadlandboy wrote:TJ
What makes you think that the French wont leave considering that they have already given notice?
The LNR have more in common with the PRL (as both represent clubs rather than regions run by Unions)

because the french interests do not align with the english clubs - and that the french know the value of the HC. they want a modified HC, the PRL want to control it. the french want a better HC, the PRL want more money for their clubs and to hell with anything else.

seriosuly the PRL are isolated and will have to back down.

by broadlandboy Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:41 pm

TJ
Where is your evidence for the French point of view?

by GunsGerms Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:46 pm

TJ wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:TJ
What makes you think that the French wont leave considering that they have already given notice?
The LNR have more in common with the PRL (as both represent clubs rather than regions run by Unions)

because the french interests do not align with the english clubs - and that the french know the value of the HC. they want a modified HC, the PRL want to control it. the french want a better HC, the PRL want more money for their clubs and to hell with anything else.

seriosuly the PRL are isolated and will have to back down.

Totally agree.

by AlastairW Mon 17 Sep 2012, 4:46 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Theres regular season Jeff games that get bigger crowds than some HC finals do
The French clubs get bigger average crowds and bigger revenue for their league games than the HC does, hence why they wanted to expand the T14 further and reduce the number of HC games.
Maybe its the Rabo that has the problems

The Heineken cup final is more or less sold out every year. So what if the AP gets a large attendance every year when a match is played in wembley. The semi of the heineken cup in '09 broke the record for a club rugby match with 82k attendance. This involved two Rabo teams. I believe that this was bigger than the Harlequins match last year.

83,761 for March's Sarries/Quins game for the record.

by SecretFly Mon 17 Sep 2012, 5:06 pm

English Delegate to ERC meeting: "We'll have our way! We're not going to be bloody horses to this bloody Irish HC cart any longer. The wheels are coming off unless we get back in the saddle where we belong!

French Delegate to ERC meeting: Nice analogy... with zee horzezs and saddeels and carts and... yes. We augree. We say diz. No. No to Pro12, no to Irlandez winning, no to Anglais winning, no to no eetself!!! Principles must be adhered to and we say No.

Irish Tea-lady: Grand so. But yis 'ill be wanting a cup of tea before yiz don't sign on the dotted line. Ah yiz will. - Ah go on - Ah go on, go on, go on.

Evening Headline: English and French delegates sign the dotted line to continue the HC as is. Nothing was put in their cups of teas!

by GunsGerms Mon 17 Sep 2012, 5:19 pm

AlastairW wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Theres regular season Jeff games that get bigger crowds than some HC finals do
The French clubs get bigger average crowds and bigger revenue for their league games than the HC does, hence why they wanted to expand the T14 further and reduce the number of HC games.
Maybe its the Rabo that has the problems

The Heineken cup final is more or less sold out every year. So what if the AP gets a large attendance every year when a match is played in wembley. The semi of the heineken cup in '09 broke the record for a club rugby match with 82k attendance. This involved two Rabo teams. I believe that this was bigger than the Harlequins match last year.

83,761 for March's Sarries/Quins game for the record.

Wembley has a bigger capacity than Croke Parke. The Croke Parke game was a sell out but Wembleys capacity is 90k. Therefore, it is a fairly pointless statistic. The match between Leinster and Munster might have sold out Wembley.

by AlastairW Mon 17 Sep 2012, 5:30 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
AlastairW wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Theres regular season Jeff games that get bigger crowds than some HC finals do
The French clubs get bigger average crowds and bigger revenue for their league games than the HC does, hence why they wanted to expand the T14 further and reduce the number of HC games.
Maybe its the Rabo that has the problems

The Heineken cup final is more or less sold out every year. So what if the AP gets a large attendance every year when a match is played in wembley. The semi of the heineken cup in '09 broke the record for a club rugby match with 82k attendance. This involved two Rabo teams. I believe that this was bigger than the Harlequins match last year.

83,761 for March's Sarries/Quins game for the record.

Wembley has a bigger capacity than Croke Parke. The Croke Parke game was a sell out but Wembleys capacity is 90k. Therefore, it is a fairly pointless statistic. The match between Leinster and Munster might have sold out Wembley.

I honestly hope it would. I wouldn't have to go so far to see top flight European Rugby Wink

by GunsGerms Mon 17 Sep 2012, 5:38 pm

I dont think the PRL should be entertained at all. They are just bitter that post bloodgate English clubs arent allowed cheat anymore and therefore dont stand a chance of winning anymore. Next thing they, as Boyne pointed out will be demanding all Leinster players have to play with one arm tied behind their backs to even the playing field.

Stop whinging PRL and sort your own house out.

by nathan Mon 17 Sep 2012, 7:18 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
AlastairW wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Theres regular season Jeff games that get bigger crowds than some HC finals do
The French clubs get bigger average crowds and bigger revenue for their league games than the HC does, hence why they wanted to expand the T14 further and reduce the number of HC games.
Maybe its the Rabo that has the problems

The Heineken cup final is more or less sold out every year. So what if the AP gets a large attendance every year when a match is played in wembley. The semi of the heineken cup in '09 broke the record for a club rugby match with 82k attendance. This involved two Rabo teams. I believe that this was bigger than the Harlequins match last year.

83,761 for March's Sarries/Quins game for the record.

Wembley has a bigger capacity than Croke Parke. The Croke Parke game was a sell out but Wembleys capacity is 90k. Therefore, it is a fairly pointless statistic. The match between Leinster and Munster might have sold out Wembley.

lol, talk about changing the goal posts!

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 8:18 pm

broadlandboy wrote:TJ
Where is your evidence for the French point of view?

“The Heineken Cup is a very good competition and we don’t want to kill it,” added Wolff. “We love the Heineken Cup in France. Sometimes we complain, because we are French first, then because the Celts don’t play as many games as us. But I can’t imagine that the French will allow the big games like Clermont against Leinster not to happen. We will do our best to keep these type of games.”

by Pot Hale Mon 17 Sep 2012, 8:25 pm

GunsGerms wrote:I dont think the PRL should be entertained at all. They are just bitter that post bloodgate English clubs arent allowed cheat anymore and therefore dont stand a chance of winning anymore. Next thing they, as Boyne pointed out will be demanding all Leinster players have to play with one arm tied behind their backs to even the playing field.

Stop whinging PRL and sort your own house out.

This paddy whacking of The English and English teams is reaching hysterical levels.

It's a negotiation. Someone has to talk first. The French have made various noises. And they've been quite specific about wanting less teams in the H Cup. And about wanting the comp to finish earlier. And that it should be top 6 from each league.

I don't buy the line that PRL have just followed suit. Some of the club owners have complained about the rest and rotation advantages in the Pro12 for quite some time. There was an initial proposal put forward for 8,8 and 8 split. Then it switched to 3 x 6.

The Irish are proposing 8,6,6 and no previous season winners. No one is crying foul about this proposal. Even though it's harsher in some respects than the PRL/LNR one.

The money is not fully explained yet so it's difficult to take potshots at it. Until the details of the 152m deal are clear, it's all guesswork as to how much European money is in the pot.

by broadlandboy Mon 17 Sep 2012, 8:28 pm

TJ So why have they given notice to leave? Actions speak louder than words

by HammerofThunor Mon 17 Sep 2012, 8:28 pm

The PRL have backed the French proposals because they want them to occur. Would they have made a move without the French? Probably not.

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 8:34 pm

broadlandboy wrote:TJ So why have they given notice to leave? Actions speak louder than words

because thats the way the contracts are set up. they have to give notice now if they are going to leave. thats the gun to the head. well call their bluff - its clear the French want a slightly modified europe and cup that could probably be done without too much damge to the smaller nations. Its clear the PRL ant a new competition controlled by tem with a totally fdiffernt format designed to disadvantage all other countries teams. Just read the direct quotes

by securing money for a European competition from BT Vision, whose chief executive Marc Watson predicted a new European competition with a "fantastic new format‚" would replace the Heineken Cup, they have the financial means to divide the other four countries that make up the ERC board, Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy

I would call the bluff. Make slight concession that would answer some of the french complaints and freeze the PRL out completely. they are not negotiating in good faith and the money they alledgedly have secured from BT is not claer how much as its liked to aviva games

by Pot Hale Mon 17 Sep 2012, 8:35 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:The PRL have backed the French proposals because they want them to occur. Would they have made a move without the French? Probably not.

Possibly not. And ditto the French. Each is backing the other on the broad complaints.
With somewhat different approaches.

The French like to be a bit more subtle. McCafferty is the veritable bull in a china shop.

McCafferty said we've sorted out the money, now let's sort out the rugby.
The French said, this talk of money is distasteful and inappropriate - sort the rugby first.

Since that public rebuke, McCafferty has moderated his remarks somewhat.

by TJ1 Mon 17 Sep 2012, 8:39 pm

Indeed pothale. I believe the rest could do a deal with the French tht would not damage the rest too much nor the compewtition. I do not believe that would be possible with the PRL as the PRL want control and the lions share of the money

by Sponsored content