Scarlets vs Ospreys - THE BIG DERBY TEAMS ANNOUNCED and live match-day thread

[Smirnoffpriest]

First topic message reminder :

RaboDirect Pro12: Scarlets v Ospreys
Venue: Parc y Scarlets, LlanelliDate: Friday, 21 September
Kick-off: 19:05 BST
TEAMS ANNOUNCED

Scarlets team v Ospreys Friday 21st September 2012, Parc y Scarlets kick-off 7.05pm:
15 Liam Williams, 14 George North, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Scott Williams, 11 Andy Fenby, 10 Rhys Priestland, 9 Tavis Knoyle, 1 Phil John, 2 Ken Owens, 3 Deacon Manu, 4 George Earle, 5 Richard Kelly, 6 Aaron Shingler, 7 Josh Turnbull, 8 Rob McCusker (capt).
Replacements:
16 Matthew Rees, 17 Peter Edwards, 18 Samson Lee, 19 Sione Timani, 20 Johnathan Edwards, 21 Gareth Davies, 22 Aled Thomas, 23 Gareth Maule.

Ospreys15 Richard Fussell 14 Hanno Dirksen 13 Tom Isaacs 12 Andrew Bishop 11 Tom Grabham 10 Dan Biggar 9 Kahn Fotuali'i 1 Duncan Jones 2 Richard Hibbard 3 Aaron Jarvis 4 Alun Wyn Jones (Capt) 5 Ian Evans 6 George Stowers 7 Justin Tipuric 8 Joe Bearman
REPLACEMENTS
16 Scott Baldwin 17 Ryan Bevington 18 Joe Rees 19 Jonathan Thomas 20 Ryan Jones 21 Rhys Webb 22 Matthew Morgan 23 Jonathan Spratt

Ospreys coach Steve Tandy is hoping his players use the occasion of Friday's Welsh derby at Scarlets to put a dismal start to the season behind them.
But Tandy hopes the 21 September clash with unbeaten west Wales rivals Scarlets will provide a turning point.
"We've always performed in derbies, we're a pretty proud bunch and I know that they'll be hurting," said Tandy.
"So there's probably no better game for us than going down to the Scarlets and hopfully prove a point... really show that we are still a decent team, and get those basic areas of our game right.

An opening defeat away at Treviso - Ospreys' first loss to an Italian side - was followed by a home loss to Ulster and then another humbling at their Liberty Stadium home by Glasgow.

Scarlets' start to the season, in contrast to Ospreys, has been impressive and the Parc y Scarlets side sit unbeaten at the top of the Pro12 table with victories over Leinster, Glasgow and Connacht.

PS - THERE MAY BE A TRIBUTE TO NEVIN, GRAHAM AND NOEL SPENCE. I am unsure of the details but have heard that the crowd and announcer may sing Stand Up for the Ulstermen before the Scarlets/Ospreys game.

Could anyone with more/definate information comment please?

[Morgannwg]

I don't think I quite understand that, why can you be allowed to ground it from there?

Because North was not in possession the ball was still in play and so the try was legally scored. In this case it didn't matter where North was so long as the ball was in play.

If North had gathered the ball before he slid over the deadball line it would not have been a try.

Still seems a bit silly to me though.

[Cari]

Thanks for clarifying that MrsP.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Thanks Cari, that's to the O's yeah?

[MrsP]

I don't think I quite understand that, why can you be allowed to ground it from there?

Because North was not in possession the ball was still in play and so the try was legally scored. In this case it didn't matter where North was so long as the ball was in play.

If North had gathered the ball before he slid over the deadball line it would not have been a try.

Still seems a bit silly to me though.

Just one of the Laws of rugby.

In rugby the dead ball area is a bit of a "Twilight Zone" where the Laws are different. At least, that's how it seems to me.

[glamorganalun]

I think we actually have the edge in nearly every shirt, that must be a first.

Except the front row, second row, 7 and most of the bench. I still think the Scarlets will win but if the Ospreys forwards turn up and play 10 man rugby it could be close. I suspect Stowers will be off at half time and replaced by R Jones, from a Scarlets point of view I would prefer Edwards to start to win ball on the ground.

NOt sure I agree with that.

Manu beats Jarvis hands down,
Phil John and Duncan are about even, maybe Duncan edges it,
Ken is better than Hibbard, but I will except arguements either way
Earle and Kelly have had a good start to the season and seem decent, although AWJ and Evans are better
Tipuric is better than Turnbull, but Turnbull, SHingler and McCusker is a far better unit than the Ospreys are feilding.

Then lets look at the bench

Matthew Rees or Baldwin, mmmm
Bevington is better than Samson
Pete Edwards is better than Jo Rees
Timani is no worse than JT, possibly better
Ryan Jones is returning from injury, but a better all round player than Jon Eds
Davies is not as good as Webb, but better than him this season
Aled Thomas is more experienced and calm, but Morgan is more skillful
Maule kicks ten shades of poop out of Spratt

So I personally believe that we have the better quality bench, and looking at the position covered by the bench I would also say that the Scarlets bench is more veristile too.

Wrong, as I said the Ospreys front, second row and 7 are better by some distance tonight and the bench proved the stronger bench belonged to the Ospreys. This could be a blessing for the Scarlets before they entre the HC they must inprove the front row to progress out of the group.

I really enjoyed the game so much going on, Knoyle forward pass to Fenby before nearly losing his head, the forward pass from Fussell, North being out scoring after knocking on.

Good news for Ospreys with Bishop Duncan and Ryan playing well.

[Cari]

Thanks Cari, that's to the O's yeah?

Indeed

[Morgannwg]

Just one of the Laws of rugby.

In rugby the dead ball area is a bit of a "Twilight Zone" where the Laws are different. At least, that's how it seems to me.

Nicely put. Understand it better now that you put it like that .

[offload]

Well, from one from the East to my friends in the West. Thanks, a very entertaining game. Plenty of errors but a real derby with just the right amount of edge. The better team won, and so much better than the dross served up by the Blues and Dragons last week. By the way, Priestland does not look like he's got his hands on the Welsh 10 jersey!
Well played Ospreys.

[MrsP]

I'm not sure that is how it is officailly described in the Laws but ....

[glamorganalun]

Not that it matters but I thought North knocked the forward

[maestegmafia]

Sounds like it was a great game. Thanks for keeping such an enthral long thread to follow.

Well done ospreys.

Great to see Duncan Jones get MOM. First time in years. Always been a fantastic player despite being plagued with injuries.

[glamorganalun]

The Scarlets lost out by picking 3 number 6 players and missing a 7 and a decent 8 but they did disrupt the line out really well. Manu was murdered by Duncan, it was lucky Adam was not playing and Ryan Jones did not start but he did enough damage in the last 20mins.

I hope Preistland is not first choice for the AI's or we will not beat any of the big teams.

[GavinDragon]

alun priestland ws absolutely fine in all aspects except goal kicking. he straightens the line well, his passing his very good and if halfpenny is fit he will start.....unless his poor goal kicking starts effecting te rest of his game sufficiently to cause him overall poor form. He is still the no1 10 playing in wales atm (i havent seen hook so cant comment on his form)

[sheephead]

Read the BBC report on this game. The amount of mistakes made me laugh. A little bit of wee just came out =D

[Casartelli]

Just got back. Great advert for Welsh rugby and the Rabo - real old-school, English/French style scrap in front of a big crowd. Bravo to both teams.

A couple of observations;

If the half-backs had swapped teams the Scarlets would have won by 15.

Tavis Knoyle is way, way, out of his depth at this level.

Otherwise - a great Welsh derby match. And take a bow Duncan J.

[glamorganalun]

What happens if 1/2 penny gets injured which is not unknown! It is difficult with Hook being away also Liam Williams is making a good case for 15, we need a reliable kicker with a good temperament which points to D Biggar but he has played rubbish up to this game. If Preistland kicked his points today it could have been a different result,,D Biggar's kicks gave momentum to his team to win the game. I think Preistland is limited, in Australia he was very poor, I believe he missed the most tackles, he has become another Steve Jones being picked whatever his form. When was the last time you have seen a Welsh 10 kicking a drop goal (Hook against Italy but S Jones was 10)?

[maestegmafia]

Hook has been in great form at Perpignan. Kicking and as a playmaker.

Though in all honesty Steffan jones and Rhys Patcgell are the best two flyhalfs in Wales at the moment.

[GavinDragon]

i agree alun its a problem, and if halfpenny is injured you may have to reconsider....for me if hook is playing well you play him at 10 outright

casartelli what ws the match att?

[sheephead]

Anyone know how shingler is playing at LI. I know they're getting spanked at the moment mind

[Casartelli]

Official attendance 14,111 which is obvious lies.

Despite that, I reckon at least 12k, which is fantastic for a Friday night slug-fest.

[GavinDragon]

yes fantastic considering it was on the box too

[Morgannwg]

Just got back. Great advert for Welsh rugby and the Rabo - real old-school, English/French style scrap in front of a big crowd. Bravo to both teams.

A couple of observations;

If the half-backs had swapped teams the Scarlets would have won by 15.

Tavis Knoyle is way, way, out of his depth at this level.

Otherwise - a great Welsh derby match. And take a bow Duncan J.

Curious to know what's English/French style about it?

Agree with you on Knoyle and Jones though.

[Morgannwg]

Anyone know how shingler is playing at LI. I know they're getting spanked at the moment mind

I don't know but Stephen Jones put on a MOTM performance in his first start last week...

[maestegmafia]

Shingler is doing well. London Irish are a poor team though. Shame he left Scarlets, he could be doing a grand job for them now as a second flyhalf/inside centre. Also a good goal kicker.

[glamorganalun]

Aled Thomas is more than useful for the Scarlets, and I agree the flyhalf at the blues and dragons are looking good. I just think Preistland will not improve he played OK today he is lucky he is playing with a cracking back line.. Knoyle is also a limited player but unlike Preistland I think he can improve.

[glamorganalun]

I watched the game again and North did knock on for his try, I think Bevan needs to go to Specsavers.

[2ndtimeround]

I've not read this thread in full and if I've missed the point forgive me but all I'm reading is cowpat excuses or reasons that mean nowt when what we should be discussing is the difference Ianto made between 2 supposedly mismatched teams. Scarlets 3 from 3, Ospreys 0 from 3 BUT 1 player tonite had more bottle than every other player on the night. Ian Evans hit the tackle area like a man possesed, should of been binned early on but wasn't so kept on hitting it harder n harder n not 1 Scarlet player had the bottle to front up, Earle n Timani went missing while Kelly was the only player to even attempt to front up to Ianto.
If this team is serious about winning anything then they need an engine room that dont Poopie out against a bully boy.
Well Done Ian Evans You were without a doubt the true M.O.M

[Hound_of_Harrow]

Shingler is doing well. London Irish are a poor team though. Shame he left Scarlets, he could be doing a grand job for them now as a second flyhalf/inside centre. Also a good goal kicker.

I beg to differ, having seen him play last Saturday. Most LI fans seemed to agree, as they were exasperated by his inability to get a very potent back line moving. He also kicked a lot of decent ball away, and rather aimlessly too most of the time, straight to the Wasps back three.

Geraghty replaced Shingler for a 6 minute cameo and immediately created a try for Marland Yarde (and what a cracker). Unfortunately for Irish, Geraghty is a way off being fully fit.

Stephen Jones, on the other hand, was nigh on immaculate. 9/9 from the tee and he controlled the game superbly, bringing his backs into play, or kicking astutely when nothing was on.

A great performance from him.

[gowales]

Shingler seems to be more of a 12/15

[Guest]

gutted about the result yesterday. Our forwards worked their arses off but those missed kicks really hurt us. Going into the last 10 minutes, instead of 9-9 it could easily have been 21-12 if both kickers had got everything and that's a whole different game then.

Ospreys got their tactics spot on to be fair to them, but I really didn't like seeing all the dirty stuff that went unpunished. The swinging forearm smash on Fenby being a case in point. And tehre was loads of stuff that you saw live that may have been missed by tv camera's. The O's took it too far for me in that regard, especially as their tactics were working so well they didn't need to.

Just wish there had been a stronger set of officials to stop that sort of play early in the first half as it ruined it a bit for me. It's a derby and I love a bit of handbags but it was taken too far yesterday.

[BristolTaff]

WHY DO YOU GUYS STILL HAVE PRIESTLAND AS A GOAL KICKER????

HE IS SHOCKING!!!!

The Wales management grew a brain and realised that THE BEST KICKER takes the goal kicks, not the 10. Easy. We've been saying it for years!!

Anyway well done Ospreys on bringing the Turks back down to earth.

[Guest]

There isn't another kicker in the Scarlets' starting line up Taff

[BristolTaff]

Even Ken Owens could kick better.

[glamorganalun]

As I said on an earlier post this is a wake up call for the Scarlets ready for the HC, their front 5 were better last year, they have lost two good props (Thomas and Thomas) and three good second rows (Day, Welch and Reed). The Scarlets will do well in the RABO but may lose out in the HC with the lack of grunt.

I don't agree with dreamer, it was a hard game but not dirty, I am not a great fan of Stowers but he went to tackle Fenby while he was horizontal trying to score, there is no time to chose where you grab the attacker.

I expected the Scarlets to win but the Ospreys pack turned up and the introduction of R Jones made a big difference, not bad for his first game of the season.

[Guest]

Alun mate, if he was trying to grab him then I'd say fair enough, but it was a swinging forearm smash to the face - disgusting play.

Also, not sure if you were there live, but the amount of holding down off the ball and punches I saw thrown, mainly from the O's I've got to say, was horrible. The ref didn't have control over that aspect of the game at all. Case in point, George Earle being held by two O's players getting punched three times in the face, the linesman calls it on his mike to the ref, who does absolutely nothing about it. Ridiculous.

Like I said, I love a derby and a bit of niggle, who doesn't? But I honestly think the O's took it too far. Their tactics were spot on, there simply wasn't the need for it.

Our second row I would say is better than last year but our front row is a worry. We need Adriaanse in asap for the TH side, but LH is going to be ahrd for us all season.

And with such a physical HEC group I think we will struggle in that. But if we improve in the Rabo from last year I'll be happy. Season upon season improvement is what we need and as long as we keep achieving that then we're going in the right direction

[red_stag]

Dreamer,

So you are saying that the Ospreys should at a minimum have had 3 red cards and probably more yellows too? You said that two separate players both punched Earle three times into the face - if thats true then both get instant red cards and a lenghty ban. And that there was a forearm smash into the face of another player - also a red card.

Lets be honest here if the foul play was that bad the linesman would have stuck his flag out and told the referee what happened. Mentioning it over the mike is for dealing with handbags stuff.

[Guest]

George was held by two players and did get punched three times by just the one player (not saying they were the worst punches I've ever seen but still I thought a hand in the face was just a no no in rugby?)

Aye, don't know why the linesman didn't flag it.

To be honest, I'd have been happy with yellow's, that's what I thought the actions warranted, but the ref just seemed content to keep warning the O's of their conduct and that's all.

What I will say about the high tackles is that they were worse than what Ian Evans got yellow carded for against Treviso and what Shingler got yellow carded for against Glasgow. Much worse. All I want is consistency in how they are penalised.

I don't know whether the ref though, oh well tis a derby this is supposed to happen, or whatever, but so far this season, tackles that haven't been anywhere near as bad have been punished. Don't know why they weren't carded y'day.

[Valleyboy]

I spent all day getting my excuses in early and was expecting us to be undone by the scintilating back play of the Scarlets but the Scarlets backs didn't shine and the Ospreys showed there is more than one way to win a game.
Well done the Ospreys.

[overlordofthewest]

Gutted.

I really thought we'd have taken them. The O's played the right game and were by far the more aggressive and showed a fair bit of grunt that we couldn't match.
Kicks are becoming an issue now and one we need to resolve pretty soon.

Dreamer, I was at the game and agree there was a lot going on after play moved on but if the Scarlets forwards had responded in kind it wouldn't have continued. Im not saying play dirty (I didn't see the punches myself) but play the ref. How often have we seen sides pushing the boundaries, if the ref is allowing the off the ball niggles, more aggressive tackling etc then you need the forwards to respond or one side will have the edge.

Well done Ospreys, you surprised me but were deserved winners.

If someone had said the Scarlets would be 3 from 4 before the start of the league Id have taken it. Bring on the next game.

[Seagultaf]

The Scarlets were bullied by the Ospreys 8 for virtually the full 80mins. if anything the final scoreline flattered the Scarlets, who yet again were found wanting up front.

Whist the Ospreys played their best game of the campaign, the Scarlets were very poor. Crushed in the scrums and very much second best in the loose. Their only glimmer of light was an effective lineout.

For the Ospreys all 8 starting forwards plus Ryan Jones and Jon Thomas were all superb. Fortuali had an armchair ride but looks a class above Webb and Biggar kicked superbly. The rest of the Ospreys backs were strong in defence. However the Scarlets just had a bad day at the office apart from Mat Rees and young Lee (who was very unfairly binned) the rest of their players probably had their worst games of the season. Whilst the backs were surviving on scraps of poor back foot ball, their usually slick handling was slow, laboured and clumsy.

Yes the ref was poor, he and his touch judges failed to get a grip on the skulduggery that was going on from the first minute. Very poor decision to bin young Lee for his first offence, when far worse had gone on all afternoon. That showed a lack of experience.

And finally from this day forward the act of punching a player in the face who is in the act of scoring, forcing him to drop the ball will now forever be known as the “Derek Bevan Defence”!

[Morgannwg]

Fortuali'i a class above Webb? That's a new one.

[Artful_Dodger]

Dreamer,

So you are saying that the Ospreys should at a minimum have had 3 red cards and probably more yellows too? You said that two separate players both punched Earle three times into the face - if thats true then both get instant red cards and a lenghty ban. And that there was a forearm smash into the face of another player - also a red card.

Lets be honest here if the foul play was that bad the linesman would have stuck his flag out and told the referee what happened. Mentioning it over the mike is for dealing with handbags stuff.

I thought there were 3 yellow card offences two of which were possibly reds as they were punches to the face with little or no provocation. Have a look at this video, the punches thrown by Ospreys players were very similar.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/09/2760/jebb-sinclair-and-tyrone-holmes-both-red-carded-for-punching-sharks

Could have easily been two reds and a yellow in very similar circumstances to what happened in the super rugby link above.

[red_stag]

Interesting Artful. I havent seen any of it but sounds like Ospreys were well lucky.

[glamorganalun]

From watching on TV and watching the game again it was a niggly game but it did not look dirty, if it was off the camera then there the player/s should be sited and held to account. I thought the ref was pretty good and it was commented by Stuart Davies that he reffed the scrums really well and handled a difficult game to his credit. It was obvious the Ospreys were under pressure to perform, I have not seen Duncan more animated with the constant collapsing the scrum by Manu, he had a cracking game.

Game game for the neutral supporters, I can't wait for the return match.

[Guest]

Gutted.

I really thought we'd have taken them. The O's played the right game and were by far the more aggressive and showed a fair bit of grunt that we couldn't match.
Kicks are becoming an issue now and one we need to resolve pretty soon.

Dreamer, I was at the game and agree there was a lot going on after play moved on but if the Scarlets forwards had responded in kind it wouldn't have continued. Im not saying play dirty (I didn't see the punches myself) but play the ref. How often have we seen sides pushing the boundaries, if the ref is allowing the off the ball niggles, more aggressive tackling etc then you need the forwards to respond or one side will have the edge.

Well done Ospreys, you surprised me but were deserved winners.

If someone had said the Scarlets would be 3 from 4 before the start of the league Id have taken it. Bring on the next game.

Can't argue with a lot of that, especially the last bit.

The only thing I have issue with is that we should have responded in kind. What the O's were doing was foul play, the ref knew this as he warned them about it, he just simply didn't take the step needed to actually punish them. I hate to think what would have happened if we'd started flying in with the high tackles too.

Opsreys really fronted up, Duncan had his best game for years, and Ryan made a massive difference. Just gutted we couldn't take our chances to put is in the lad when it mattered.

[Artful_Dodger]

glamorganalun - I will say this, if that had been an Italians, Scottish or Irish ref I think this board would be littered with complaints about him. But as he's Welsh I think many are giving him credit that he really doesn't deserve. There were a hell of a lot of incidents which deserved yellow in the very least and when a player finally did get binned it was rather unbelievably (from my point of view as a neutral) a Scarlets player.

Ospreys should consider themselves incredibly lucky last night. With regards to the ref I thought he was as bad if not worse than any Italian or Scottish ref I have seen - but hey hes Welsh.

[Guest]

Nah Atrful I thought the ref was poor too (yes yes I know my side lost but I still can have a modicum of perspective ), and didn't seem to get any help from the assistant ref's either.

He for me, had absolutely no control over what was a niggly and dirty derby match to be honest. He needed to stop it early on in the game but he just let it fester. No point at all in warning the O's for dirty play if he then goes on to do nothing about it when they keep putting in the high tackles etc.

[Smirnoffpriest]

+1 cant believe the ospreys didnt get a card,particularly ianto. I dont suppose u can blame the ospreys tho as the ref let them get away with it and showd he wouldnt card them. I actually turnd to the person next to me after 25mins and said the ref wouldnt card them until 5mins from the end when it was too late.

[Smirnoffpriest]

I still havent calmed down tho so will wait till tonite to read throu the thread and comment sum more

[Guest]

I know the feeling Priest. Had to write up the match report earlier and really struggled. Still think I haven't been objective enough but I just can't face editing it again!

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