The Average Golfer

I was thinking about the almost 8,000 yard course in La Jolla that just hosted the Farmers event, and Torrey Pines is a municipal track even though it's $200 to play?? So playing off the yellows you'de probably be looking at over 6,500 yards and probably wider fairways for general play.

I was reading an article recently about average distances for men with a driver, 6-iron and wedge and was surprised with the results. For example, and if you think about this logically it would be correct, that the average handicap for both men and women is 15.2. The average score being 100+ due to the number of high handicappers playing and of course mid-handicap players.

I appreciate that we have many cat 1 players on this board and I'm envious, but class myself in the average or mid-handicap range. The average driving distance is 192 yards for players recording scores over 90 and 200-260 yards for being the AVERAGE overall.

The average 6-iron will go 130-160 yards and the average wedge 80-120 yards.

Yes I know we have players on here who outdistance these avaerages by some margin.

If the majority of general play golfers play their Sunday best round they would still struggle to post a decent score on one of these monster tracks as plenty of par 4's would be unreachable and the only chance would be wedging the 3rd shot close to try for par. One of the Sky pundits said recently at the recent desert course, that a 10 handicapper would struggle to go round here in 90.

So shouldn't we be making courses for the majority and not the minority? and I'm not really talking about the tour players here, but there are plenty of long tracks around these days.

I'm expecting some arguments here - mod alert 8)

I've played quite a lot of golf in the States when I've been over there. They have a different mentality to us, there you can play off pretty much any set of tees that you feel comfortable with. In this country we tend to have more hard and fast rules like yellow for general play and whites for competitions etc.

As a lower handicapper, I usually play from the back tees when I'm over there and more often than not, get some pretty strange looks from playing partners as if to say I'm completely bonkers. The yanks generally play from much more forward tees than we do. I've played with some pretty decent players over there that will only play from the tees immediately behind the ladies. No wonder they have flattering handicaps compared to us!

D4S I'm not trying to wind the natives up with this, but as Mav pointed out earlier in another post, you should be able to plot your way around a course to give you the best possible chance for a low score. Extending courses and setting them up in such a way that only benefits big smash merchants and not punishing them for being off line, seems unfair.

My home course off competition tees is 6,600 yards and is tough for the average player, whereas my away course is 5,600 yards and is even tougher. Tougher in the sense that it doesn't benefit the big hitter as much as its a technical route for a low score. There are however 4 par 3's that need a 200-yard carry, which can mean a driver for some, and with it being a small target and a 200-yard carry is tough to par. The only advantage the big boys gain on this course is on a couple of par 5's which are fairly straightforward and can be reached in 2 for the long boys, but the rest is plot and course management as the risk and reward holes are dominant. So all in all a much fairer course, although tough.

I don't really understand why average or poorer than average players would want to play tough courses off the back tees, but they seem to want to.

I regularly see society guys who play off 12-24 standing on the back of the back tee launching another one into the woods.

Is it really enjoyable?

Perhaps they think that they haven't had a 'proper' game unless they've lost 9 balls. Still it's their choice I guess. It's no surprise that course builders keep building them longer and longer I suppose. Leaving aside pro golf, I think most regular club players are happy with a course that's no longer than 6500 yards. I know that there are various tee configurations, but length seems to be some sort of badge of honour for a lot of societies.

I may kick of the course review section when I next get the time with a course that should demonstrate why people should forget yardage and leave the score card in your back pocket. The course is Kilspindie at it is less than 6000 yards. Anyone who has played it will know what i mean.

All that is required is to have more tee box options, rather than just have a Yellow and a White tee, why not have extra tees both longer and shorter?
There shouldn't be a gender specific tee either. If you want to play off the reds because you are a short hitter or perhaps one of the older players around, or one just behind then fair enough. Same goes for the ladies , that if they feel they can play off the longer tees they should be permitted to do so. We pay a great deal for annual subscriptions and green fees, surely it should be up to us to choose which tee we play off (providing it doesn't slow up play).

Super


You are spot on regarding the use of tees. How much do you think playing from the wrong tees contribute to slow play?


I think people need to re-evaluate the benefits gained from machoism on the golf course. Golf was never intended to be a game of brute force but rather one of cunning a guile.

Mac, Machoism is prevalent in every aspect of the game, from playing off inapropriate tees for your skill level, taking driver when it is't the percentage shot, to trying to pull off impossible shots from wretched positions or trying a low percentage flop shot instead of a chip and run or far easier putt off the ground. Too many people would rather play the shot which makes you look good should you pull it off (rarely happens), rather than the one that is best for the job. Hence why the average handicap has remained static over the years despite the advances in technology.
I think machoism certainly contributes to slow play, but it is by no means the sole cause. I put that largely down to not being prepared to play, waiting for your turn, rather than playing when you are ready, bad shot choices (aka poor course management), walking slowly between shots, and general faffing about. My own pet hate is the ones who stand over the ball for 30 seconds. It can only create tension, to the player hitting the shot, his playing partners and the group behind.

I'm one of those mid- to high-handicappers and never seen the attraction in less capable players playing off black tees where available.

I like the challenge of playing off whites where available as these are the tees you would have to play off in a medal comp. Even visiting other clubs, if forced to play off the yellows, I'm always wondering what it would be like to play off the medal tees, but an away course that has black tees (or whatever they want to call them) just leave me looking at them in awe. Yes I fantasize about what it might be like to play off them, and in fact would want to do it one day as an experiment, but no desire to do it regularly

I was even surprised at my current club to find that most members play off the whites in casual play. I've taken to doing that just because it is good practice for medals. Whenever I bring a guest though it's back to the yellows unless I know they are a VERY good player

Davie wrote:I'm one of those mid- to high-handicappers and never seen the attraction in less capable players playing off black tees where available.

I like the challenge of playing off whites where available as these are the tees you would have to play off in a medal comp. Even visiting other clubs, if forced to play off the yellows, I'm always wondering what it would be like to play off the medal tees, but an away course that has black tees (or whatever they want to call them) just leave me looking at them in awe. Yes I fantasize about what it might be like to play off them, and in fact would want to do it one day as an experiment, but no desire to do it regularly

I was even surprised at my current club to find that most members play off the whites in casual play. I've taken to doing that just because it is good practice for medals. Whenever I bring a guest though it's back to the yellows unless I know they are a VERY good player

Do you want to know what it would be like to play from the medal tee's at a course you are visiting?

Not as good as playing from the correct tee's. Surely fun is the main factor. Right?

If it's appropriate why shouldn't people be allowed to play off the back boxes?

Last time I played in Portugal I was staying at Penina and played that and San Lorenzo. The starters there were perfectly accomodating to my request to play the course from the tips. And I found it highly enjoyable on both courses.


That said if someone goes off the back tees and can't knock it out of their own shadow all that's going to happen is they'll get frustrated. Start swinging harder. And get in even deeper trouble. And that will slow down the course. Annoy everyone. And lead to a bloodbath in the bar when Roy McEvoy has to prove he can play with a 4 iron and a heron. And we all hate those show-offs who can do that through the frenchdoors.

McLaren wrote:I may kick of the course review section when I next get the time with a course that should demonstrate why people should forget yardage and leave the score card in your back pocket. The course is Kilspindie at it is less than 6000 yards. Anyone who has played it will know what i mean.

I played kilspindie back in September as a visitor - I enjoyed it, a fun round, but not what I would describe as a particularly testing challenge.
Used a 3 iron off the par4 tees and at shot 5 under my handicap on a gusty Sunday morning ( as did 2 others in our party of 6 )

I'm not a fan of long courses, nor short - a well balanced challenge is what I look for.

As a side note, we found the welcome at Kilspindie to be underwhelming and the members were distinctly snooty.
I think they would prefer it to be members only.

In contrast, the welcome at North Berwick West was different class - Thanks to Sam Fox.
Anyone who's met him will know what I mean.

McLaren wrote:Do you want to know what it would be like to play from the medal tee's at a course you are visiting?

I don't understand. I thought I said that I did wonder what it would be like?

super_realist wrote:All that is required is to have more tee box options, rather than just have a Yellow and a White tee, why not have extra tees both longer and shorter?
There shouldn't be a gender specific tee either. If you want to play off the reds because you are a short hitter or perhaps one of the older players around, or one just behind then fair enough. Same goes for the ladies , that if they feel they can play off the longer tees they should be permitted to do so. We pay a great deal for annual subscriptions and green fees, surely it should be up to us to choose which tee we play off (providing it doesn't slow up play).

You're absolutely right, Super. If I'm haveing a friendly knock round with LordPutt we both tend to play off the yellow tees (unless the red tees are in front of a large amount of water :606laugh: ). Agree the tees should not be gender specific - just colour coded. When you watch the pros on TV, there are often up to 6 tees available. Wonder what they call them?

I once played the Celebration course in Florida (excellent track by the way... well worth it if you're over there) and we were held up on the tee by the starter. A matchplay game had to go extra holes and as a result we let them tee off in front of us.

One player went from the back tees... and the other from 4 tees forwards. I asked what that was about. The answer was a interesting in that the guy off the back played off 1 the other off 20. Instead of having any shots they just play from a specific tee according to handicap thus creating a difference in difficulty and balancing the game out.

Whilst that might not always work it does show that other countries are a lot more accepting of playing from the location best suited to your ability.

LJ theres been a few interesting ideas and this latest one seems good too, but of course it would only work on courses that were able to to have extra tee areas etc, as plenty just have one tee box with a load of different tees.

You are 100% correct though about the rules over here being too stringent in certain areas, and an unwillingness to try and adapt/tweak things. It's not like golf is the 'finished article' even though the R&A seem to think so. The ET are sitting down to review the latest spate of DQ's and TV rule infringements, but seem not to be able to grasp any other ideas that can only make the game more inclusive.

Davie wrote:

McLaren wrote:Do you want to know what it would be like to play from the medal tee's at a course you are visiting?

I don't understand. I thought I said that I did wonder what it would be like?

Yes, and you will notice that below that I gave you the answer.


"Not as good as playing from the correct tee's. Surely fun is the main factor. Right?"

Agree with a lot of what Super says (and welcome aboard btw). High handicappers reach for the Lady Godiva far too often, most of us try and hit the ball far too hard and some of us try and attempt shots that even Seve would have thought twice about in his pomp. My new course is not long, but it has several dog legs, slopey lies (on side of a hill), gorse bushes, shrubs and trees and when the wind is more than about 10mph you definitely notice it. We have four tees; whites (strictly comps only), yellows (blokes) red (ladies) and blues (juniors). They only put the whites out for comp days, BUT at the moment some of the yellows are where the whites would be, so it gives you a bit of a taste of what medal tees will be like. Even off whites our course is less than 6500 yards but it is not easy. Others who have joined from other courses have handicaps 3 or 4 higher than the 'flat track bully' places they have come from

I really like Celebration too, the design is such that any of the tee boxes provide a test, whether to play over, round or short of the hazards. Sometimes courses just become easier if you play off shorter tees but not this one. I played it one time in my off season and moved to a shorter set of tees and found the risk reward element to be really good.

They also rate the tee boxes at Celebration with handicap ranges. The course says you'll find out if you are playing the right set of tees when you reach the par 3 16th. Tough par 3 from the back with long carry over water to a tricky green.

McLaren wrote:

Yes, and you will notice that below that I gave you the answer.


"Not as good as playing from the correct tee's. Surely fun is the main factor. Right?"

Nope- still don't get it

Really??

Ok here goes

You ask the question "what would it be like to play from the medal tees?"

I then provided the following response;

"Not as good as playing from the correct tee's. Surely fun is the main factor. Right?"

After reading your first reply about 20 times, I finally managed to parse it the way you seem to intend it to be read. I still don't get your response though - why would playing from the medal tees (no apostrophe) be not as good or any less "fun" than playing off the tee of the day?

Davie:
In casual golf with visitors who don't play your course regularly (or any course regularly for that matter) unless they are decent players, it wouldn't be as much fun for them and (ergo for you) struggling off the whites rather than playing off more sensible tee positions where the course doesn't beat them up as much. Everyone wants a test, but it's no fun playing with a casual golfer who gets despondent after the first 6 holes because the tee positions are way beyond their ability

I think that's what I said, noshanking. Whenever I've taken guests to my club we have always played off the yellows unless I was confident that my visitors would get something out of playing from the whites.

Even if I would rather play off the whites in practice for medals, it's consideration to your visitors that they get the best experience out of the visit

I like to see the norm of 6 easy holes, 6 medium and 6 hard. That's the way it should be and this should be (mostly) reflected by the length of the holes being played. In some cases the length of the hole is irrelevant and the layout and the green shape and slope causes the hole to play with more difficulty.

I'm making a bold statement here, but the average player doesn't break 100 most days, regardless of the standard scratch of the course, if playing by the rules. To answer the question more specifically, courses are plenty hard enough if measured about 6500 yards in average conditions with 10-15 yards or roll on a drive, for example. Anything more than that and players will struggle quite badly indeed. The option to play off whatever tees you prefer should be there though, but most should be directed to the yellows, for speed and enjoyment.

Having said all this I play off the tourney tees when I practice but I'm quick to get around (and I'm a sadist :crying: )

I have to say i always play from the yellow tees, with no thoughts of ever playing tees further away.

As a high handicapper (and purely from a personal note) the ego boost i would get having people looking at me heading to the back tees would be ruined as i scuffed the drive and failed to get past the ladies tees lol.

I still get nervous on the first tee when people watch so no need to add more pressure.

However if people can hit the ball consistantly enough and feel comfortable then i have no issues with people playing from whatever tee they choose.

[quote="Nay Bother"]I have to say i always play from the yellow tees, with no thoughts of ever playing tees further away.

As a high handicapper (and purely from a personal note) the ego boost i would get having people looking at me heading to the back tees would be ruined as i scuffed the drive and failed to get past the ladies tees lol.

And I take it you do know the forfeit which has to be made for failure to reach the ladies tee with your drive don't you......

:lol:

ha ha

thankfully not had to happen yet, but i guarentee it would if i moved back.

as an example of my skill i have once went to hit a 7 iron from the fairway, topped the ball so much it spun backwards. ( a couple of years back)