The way forward

Strangely yesterday's loss to the All Blacks has not upset me in the manner I thought it would. I expected the tension and nervousness before the game would turn into deep disappointment and utter dispair.

The opposite is in fact true, I found out what I needed to know and can now think with clarity about where South African rugby is. The simple fact is we are nowhere near where we should be to challenge the All Blacks, and I am fine with that because I now have belief in Heyneke Meyer.

The reasons are quite simple, he has shown that he has faith in younger players and are even though sometimes reluctant to change, prepared to make the difficult decisions.

We have seen a good number of new players during this season, a couple of experienced players who were tested and rejected, but for the first time a coach who is prepared to move the game plan onto a different sphere.

Players such as Etzebeth, Vermeulen, Oosthuizen, Coetzee, Goosen, Jantjies, Taute and Lambie currently all between 19 and 22 years old will be the future of SA rugby, the one important factor they have in common is that they are all "new age". Most of them as yet don't have a lot od experience, but they all have the mindset of playing rugby with ball in hand.

There are of course a handful of experienced players who still have age on their side and the necessary mindset to play with ball in hand, Habana, Pietersen, Hougaard, Bismarck, Schalk, Brussow, Beast, Jannie, Bekker, Flip v d Merwe, Frans Louw, Frans Steyn, Adriaan Strauss and Alberts.

These are the guys that must become the core of senior players that will lead the youngsters into battle for the next 3 years or perhaps a little longer depending on form and age.

There are a bunch of youngsters not yet exposed to international rugby and with but a few games of Super Rugby ir Currie Cup under their belt, Raymond Rhule, Willie le Roux, Paul Jordaan, Jan Serfontein, Robert Groom to name a few. all of whom have excitement and creativity written all over their gameplay.

But what is of highest importance are the goals Heyneke Meyer sets for himself, most South African coaches work on a four year plan and when you look at the crop of youngsters who wants to play ball in hand rugby, it is vital that firstly, players such as Jean de Villiers, Morne Steyn and Zane Kirchner be removed from the equation simply becuase as much as they want to adapt, they have been indoctrinated to a certain style of play and have simply not developed the necessary skills or ability to make the right decisions for this new style of play.

Meyer must approach SARU and convince them that the development of a new style in SA rugby is not going to happen overnight, firstly the core of youngsters need experience not only on the international stage, but also at Super Rugby.

It will take 5-7 years to entrench the new methodology in Springbok rugby, these youngsters will need time to build into an experienced squad that not only have the skills but also the wisdom of how to handle the pressures of consistently beating the All Blacks.

If SARU or Meyer are not on the same page regarding the steps necessary to bring SA rugby on par with NZ, then the alternative is to remain also rans for decades to come.

There are too many people in SA that beleive we have only one strnegth, forward power, that is frankly disrespectful to every talented back line player who is begging for the opportunity to show what he can do.

There are no more excuses for me, even if JP Pietersen, Jaque Fourie, Schalk Burger and Bismarck du plessis were part of this campaign, we would still not have had the goods to beat the All Blacks, simply because the culture and methodology of the team can only move forward if it is given a clean slate.

New Zealand are ahead of everyone at the moment Bilt.

But teams will catch them up...

The likles of Ezebeth etc are going to take the boks close to them or better...

Biltong, what is your thinking on the length of time it took for Meyer and his team to get Goosen off the field and Elton Jantjies on?

This seemed like a crucial period in the game where the momentum really changed direction.

Goosen was clearly signalling the side line and he was targeted by Read, then Nonu, then Whitelock in the build up.

And, also do you think JDV is the right man to lead the team? I would have thought a mid field captain would have been laying down the law to go wide with Dagg off the field, but the forwards were greedy and didn't deliver. Did he make the wrong choice? or does he lack influence in the team to assert his will?

Meyer definitely took too long to replace Goosen.

De Villiers must now retire from international rugby.

Biltong long term you are in a very good position,to lose for various reasons Matfield ,Botha,DuPreez,Fourier,Smit,Juan Smith,Pietersen ,Spies,Broussow thats a lot of experiece to make up add the Steyns etc.You have a lot of good young players,many won`t make it but some will.Central Contracts having all your Super sides following the Bok game plan within winning will help.It isn`t going to happen over night maybe as long as 8 years before another RWC is in prospect.Expecting a good young 20 year old to match Dan Carter is unrealistic
The All Blacks face real problems if they want to escape the problems of 1991and 1998.The Average age at the moment is around 27,BUT at Hooker,6,7,10,12,and 13 they will go more or less together.Most of those mentioned are numbers 1or 2 in world rugby at present.Of course there are players in Nz that can cover them BUT there is a considerable difference between Conrad Smith,Carter,and McCaw for example than the next best.

Agree with all this Biltong, pretty much what Ive been saying last year or two albeit in a different way. I just dont think it will take 5-7 years. Bok rugby or fans wont wait that long. Agree with Meyers change of faith. In fact it all happened so quickly at some point between Dunedin and the Oz test that only a gun to Meyes head (figuratively speaking of course) could have changed his mind quicker.

Jantes I thought showed a maturity beyond his years so hes part of the future somehow. Goosen needs to get some good hard injury free sxv behind him, build momentum into the test arena cos hes definitely the long term. If I were Meyer I would get him into the Sharks, Bulls or Stormers. The Oz experience of having the young talented backs at the lower sxv level just makes them more prone to injury, always on the defensive.


SA still lead at half time and were a bit loose on defence. That was the real difference on the day. But youre right, there is now a way forward and I think youll find SA fans will agree with you. He's taken the first bold move towards a better future. From here it just gets more exciting.

Alans right, we look to be peaking but at least this time its not the year before the world cup. We have some stunning talent in the ITM so Ive no worries about our players being replaced and with the inevitable emergence of the Blues next two years NZ rugby looks as strong as ever.

Hi all!

Despite the loss, like Biltong, i'm not feeling too down about it. It must be admitted that this is an amazing Allblack squad and SA is rebuilding (remanants of PDIV's lack of foresight and planning), a process of which has been hampered by injuries and international career moves by key players such as Fourie and du preez.

Come the next WC SA will be very very strong and this period where young players were forced into the side due to lack of options, injurins etc possibly seen as a blessing in disguise.

Take the current team, add in the injured players (Bismark, Burger, JPP and F Steyn), a couple of overseas based players and you have a squad more than capable of winning the RWC and defeating the mighty All Blacks.

Looking forward to the November tests and a SH whitewash!

Read an interesting comment in reply to reports of Saturdays Match,which is very apposite.Does Meyer want to play a pressure game,or a running game?because some members of his squad arn`t capable of playing both.
On Saturday it seemed to be a case of give it to Bryan[Habana]and he will do the rest.He scored one but cannot be expected to do it on his own. If the Boks
suffer defeats in the short term will he go back to type.?
SA has the players to execute any game plan,and a massive Pack,problem is the mastodons currently arn`t fit enough.
NZ people on this site early on were critical of Hansen and Foster for various reasons.BUT the player management and conditioning plus central contracts appears to be giving the ABs less injuries compared to the other SH sides.
With more and more Rugby being expected of ALL teams worldwide. Player
management seems the most important to avoid burn out.

I am trying to get behind this myth that the Boks aren't fit enough.

The All Blacks didn't score a try for the last 28 minutes of the game, during that time Carter and late in the game Cruden made a lot of territorial kicks pinging us back in our half, for a good amount of time SA also attacked deep in the All Black 22 and chose a few kickable penlaties to go to the corners.

In that time NZ kicked two penalties, so where is this perception coming from?

Hi,Biltong you may well be right but it seemed to me the Boks were struggling to keep up the pace in the second half.True the ABs did`nt score a try in the last period 10 of which they were down to 14 men,BUT they did`nt need to.
Apart from last week the Boks all year have put in good performances for part but not all of the games.Especially against England in some of the tests thought it may be fitness problem?

Biltong wrote:Meyer definitely took too long to replace Goosen.

De Villiers must now retire from international rugby.

Nonsense why would any player decide to do that.

If he isn't up to it the coach needs to tell him he wont be getting picked anymore.

red_stag wrote:

Biltong wrote:Meyer definitely took too long to replace Goosen.

De Villiers must now retire from international rugby.

Nonsense why would any player decide to do that.

If he isn't up to it the coach needs to tell him he wont be getting picked anymore.

Same result, mate, just different semantics.

GeordieFalcon wrote:New Zealand are ahead of everyone at the moment Bilt.

But teams will catch them up...

The likles of Ezebeth etc are going to take the boks close to them or better...

The problem for most teams is it could take a decade to catch up. You have to train players to play the NZ way.

Profitius the core of this Springboks side can indeed play that way. They just haven't done it in a green jersey really. Look at the Currie Cup and the Super teams and aside from the traditional forward play, they are capable of playing slick backline moves.

Springobk rugby doesn't have to try to imitate the ABs. They showed in Dunedin and the first 25 minutes in Soweto that they can compete and get on top of the ABs. It's not like they have to swing to the other extreme. They just have to be smarter with their kicking game and not be afraid to keep the ball in hand. Trust in the players you have and put into practice what you are capable of doing in other comps.

Biltong is right to be optimistic about the future. Meyer has seen the light and a transition is taking place. It won't happen overnight but he is starting to go down the right path and you have to salute the man for doing so because he could've so easily gone into his shell and dug out the conservative gameplan. A loss is much easier to tolerate if you're convinced the team is heading for a bright future. A loss when the same old thing happens and stagnation occurs, that's when you lose hope and fall into the abyss of despair.

Kia,love the gloom and doom bit Biltong was getting paranoid about Morne Steyn/Bulls style.PDV wanted to play a more fluid game his senior players stopped him.Most of those are gone so the next generation can play any way they please.

The senior players to come back can play like that. Get JP as captain and cast out JDV, get Lambie into some form and bring on the younger players and there is a lot to be encouraged about. It didn't look like that in Perth and Dunedin so you have to congratulate Meyer for turning things round. They came third in the RC but they finish with the potential to grow a lot more than Australia.

I see Goosen is out for 6 months (potentially)...

http://www.sarugby.com/news.cfm?newsid=21371

Will Meyer give Jantjies a run or will it be back to Morne for the AI's???

Oh dear. Lambie for 10? Jantjies looked the most composed at goal kicking but not much else. Meyer could do without that complication. Australia's horror run with injuries doesn't take away the fact that SA has suffered big time with injuries as well. Sad news.

Sad news for Goosen ,hope he mends well Hougaard back at 9,Lambie at 10,Franny Steyn at 15.That would be my solution but the Sa fans will think different.Also heard good things about Jordaan is it at centre?

I would hope so too Alan.

I tore my medial collateral ligaments last year skiing and it took 6 weeks before I could walk straight. And it still makes a crunchy sound and twinges when I run on it. I wonder if he will be back in the same shape? I guess his doctors are better than the ones I got on the NHS though!

I'd imagine he's younger and fitter than you too AWOP but I'm just guessing.

The learning curve was a long one for Meyer. Two poor decisions stand out for me. Picking Goosen too early and dropping Steyn too late.

Steyn had well overspent his time in the side. Consistently poor performances continued to get rewarded with reselection.

Likewise Goosen was not given the time he needed to get either mentally or physically prepared as a starter for facing Oz and NZ.

By tournaments end Meyer did get some things right but like the team he needs to become a more astute student of the game. Originally blinded by 'old school' thinking his sudden transition to opening up the side against the top two sides became a shambles with the ease of the AB tries in the last match when again, the signs were there to suggest they were not ready for this sort of game.

Marks for making the change but he needs to regain some balance back to the middle and somehow use instinct rather than script to make his decisions. For that reason jury is still out on Meyer. His next moves will be watched with a microscope.

Taylorman, Meyer effectively has two choices.

He either accepts the fact that South Africa won't evolve and hence remain also rans for the fore seeable future.

Or he qustions the status quo in SA rugby and changes, now there are different ways he can bring these changes about, one is the slow progression he made this year before dropping Morne Steyn, the results would have been the same if he dropped him early, neither Goosen or Jantjies was going to light a fire under the bok's backsides immediately.

He has taken the option to change, the question is no will he go back or forge ahead?

In my view it is now about forging ahead, even if it means we fall out of the top four ranking (I don't think we would, because a stale Bok team is still better than most), but forge ahead he must.

He needs to identify the players that are young and unmarred by the kick and chase method and hone their skills, even if it takes another two years.

In a sense he must be the fall guy if needed, because SA rugby is being hampered by many issues, administrators, the Franchises and political pressures.

There are more things wrong with SA rugby than just our attitude towards how we appraoch the game. The Franchises have their own agenda's, SARU has their own agenda's and the politicians have their own agenda's.

We must change what is in our powers to change, we can do nothing about the political interference, it will always be there, unless our team is made up of majority non whites, so to worry about it is idiotic.

We can however change the operating processes and principles between SARU and the Franchises, but Jurie Roux is the man that must initiate that.

This extends further to the methodology of how we approach the game, the Bulls and Stormers in particular must up their game to enable it to filter throughout the top 5 franchises.

Meyer is unfortunately the horse before the cart as he now has to employ a top down strategy, but he does have the necessary players to do that and therefor he simply cannot afford to go back into the dark side, the light is in front of him and he must forge ahead.

I said this when he took over, I don't care if we lose whilst we are revamping our strategies, but if we lose becaue we are going back, then I fear my patience will come to an end.

FOr now it isn't about how good the All BLacks are, it isn't about our ranking (not that is ever is in my opinion), it is all about taking the necessary step back that will take you two steps forward in a few years.

Biltong

I sometimes onder about your criticism of Meyer, and surely sometimes the players have to take responsibility for their actions, an example being, when i look at the Aaron Smith try last weekend, my take on your defense was let down by only one player Habana, all he had to to do was mark Carter, but no he chose to go for the intercept, a decision which was childish, selfish but more importantly gutless.

My take on the springboks at the moment is that its the young players who are showing all the promise for the future, and I think theyre making a good job of it.

Laurie, the thing is there are two issus, the one is the players being selected, the other is the off field goings on.

I agree about Habana's mistake. Players do make mistakes there is no doubt about it, but for the purpose of SA rugby towards the future, Habana's brain fart isn't going to take us where we want to be, that is a coaching and tactical decision making issue.

Biltong

In my opinion habana's brain fart should have discounted him from being considered for selection for the next test, too many of your young forward players didnt deserve to be let down like that. And nor did your coach.

Sure I dont know your players as well as you, but what South Africa are turning out at the moment in terms of rugby quality compared to only a year ago, in terms of Internationals, then I think that by next year New Zealand and South Africa will again be the two dominant teams in International rugby, and by quite some distance.

I agree with you that there is enough young players, and yes we could be at the top again next year, but what worries me is it could again be a false dawn if we hang onto players such as de Villiers, Morne Steyn, Kirchner and Pienaar, we must get there without those players, and I expect it to take a little longer than just one year.

No Biltong, this new wave of South African International representative iis the best thing Ive seen all year, (followed by Argentina) No it is not a false dawn, might I suggest that you dont look at the scoreboard but at the other stats, Possession, teritory,penalties, turnovers etc etc and youll soon find that the scoreboard looks after itself.

I have Laurie, but once again the sats are favourable for our forwards, which we all know we have a huge depth in, but when you look at players such as Dean Greyling who epitomises the "Dum" Afrikaner rugby player, those we must get rid of. Then you look at Coenie Oosthuizen who is a very promising player, yet his discipline and intellegence of play needs work.

We are still not smart enough in the forward pack, we struggle to adapt on the field, you need to know how to read the ruck situation or lineouts, mauls etc, and adpat to what is happening.

I was reading an article the other day where the New Zealand school boy situation was compared to the SA one, you guys play according to weight categories, which in turn implies that players will learn skills becasue they don't have the size or weight advantage to just overpower their age groups.

In SA our players learn the bash and thunder approach because they are naturally stronger and bigger than their mates hence it debilitates the skill development process.

Our backline also needs to be smarter, you could see Goosen did make a difference, even Jantjies made a difference and I believe Lambie can make the same difference, but when a player such as de Villiers who must have made 10 poor or forward passes during the tournament stifles your moves because of lack of ability then you aren't going to get anywhere.

We need players that have not played smash and grab rugby for ten years.

It is about a culture change in SA rugby, we need to change the culture of being big and strong and turn it into a culture of we are smart and agile and nifty.

two things

I think I have intimated this before but I have a lot of time for Greyling, especially after his game last year against the wallabies , his first test, I also see a big rugby man for the future in young Van der Merwe, South Africa is maybe a lot closer to clicking than maybe you guys realise.

In our school boy system you play weight grades up to First xv level which in itself is an open grade, we just have to,as we have plenty of big Polynesian boys that are absolutely massive, it may interest you to know that there a couple of schoolboy first xv foraward packs in Auckland that are heavier than the All Black pack. but there is a big downside to side size which I am sure you appreciate. especially at that age.

And on another point your right about culture, sure your culture in terms of team culture maybe founded on a different basis to teams in NZ, but I bet they are just as important to your players as they it is to ours, just ask them...

Just dont confuse game plan with culture.

nganboy wrote:I'd imagine he's younger and fitter than you too AWOP but I'm just guessing.

Yes true. Although I am prettier.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
And on another point your right about culture, sure your culture in terms of team culture maybe founded on a different basis to teams in NZ, but I bet they are just as important to your players as they it is to ours, just ask them...

Just dont confuse game plan with culture.

sure, I am referring to culture more as a mindset than a gameplan, goes towards the attitude with which we play the game, it needs to be more positive.

Post RWC years have always meant top players from the SH retiring or going for a pension abroad.This year is no diffferent unlike post 2003,and 2007 the All Blacks have suffered least.In post 2003 they lost a team in 2007 a whole squad,this year most of the RWC squad is intact.That has`nt been true of this year for either Australia or SA.Write of this year for both of them injuries has skewed the picture to much for them.The AB`s have hardly been touched by injuries,was the Bok game plan wrong or just the execution?in both games SA could have won if there Goalkickers had been at there normal level or very close .You don`t have to outplay OZ or the AB`s at there own game,come up with a flexible game plan and take your chances.
Bok rugby at Super 15 level has been very successful,Stormers the most successful recently.THEY scored the least tries and conceded the least tries in the
pre knock out stages.
3Ns sides have been built around the most successful Super sides Crusaders/Hurricanes/Reds/Bulls/Stormers etc.
I`m an All Black fan but also a realist,this year is an anomaly of course i`m chuffed they have been so successful this year.I hope they finish it unbeaten
but at some point they will start losing.This year they have it all next may be different.
I`ve seldom seen a really poor Bok side in my life and this one certainly isn`t that.Morne Steyn is a comfort blanket like Don Clarke or Jonny Wilkinson the game plan was built around them.To create chances for them to keep the scoreboard ticking over.Would the knives have been out if he was his normal self kicking every thing.Just a thought PDV had a 5-6 win loss versus AB`s maybe he got it right?
The Politics i`m not going to get involved in lets see 4Ns 2013 when hopefully all sides will be at full strength.

Alan, I think you will find the criticism of Morne Steyn's abilitites or lack there of has been banded about amongst SA supporters for some time. It was really only the Bulls supporters who never even admitted there are other options.

You find that situation in any society, there are those who beleive things must not change and there are thse asking whether it could be done differently.

As an example this past weekend, we are attacking the All Black try line for a sognificant period of time, twice we kicked for the corner and didn't go for the goal kick.

Both times after multiple phases that followed mauls from the line out, (one being dragged down illegally by Read hanging onto our ball carrier at the back), we continued with one off forward runners until both times we lost the ball, niether time did we try to go wide.

That doesn't mean we should change our game plan at all, what it means is we must ask more from the defence of the opponent by mixing it up.

Biltong wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
And on another point your right about culture, sure your culture in terms of team culture maybe founded on a different basis to teams in NZ, but I bet they are just as important to your players as they it is to ours, just ask them...

Just dont confuse game plan with culture.

sure, I am referring to culture more as a mindset than a gameplan, goes towards the attitude with which we play the game, it needs to be more positive.

Honestly Biltong I dont think your players are that far away, What I see of the South Africans is ( and I maybe wrong) but they must get their culture right first and the rest will follow.But you cant make allowances for habana's attitude in defence like we all saw last weekend.

True Biltong which is why used the word flexible game plan,the thing that has killed you this year.You have`nt converted your chance mostly goal kicks that can`t go on forever.Incidentally at full strength there is litle to choose between
the 3Nsides.

True, full strength these teams are close, but that culture we are talking about is about being smart players.

One thing you can't accuse Springboks of for the past however many years, if ever.

The last smart player that came out of SA was Naas Botha, he knew how to win. Sadly his type wasn't seen on the international stage long enough to make an impact on our culture.

Everyone will say he kicked a lot and wasn't a running fly half, the Boks scored 3 tries per test match when he played ten, he knew when the attack was on and when to drop or kick. Smartest Bok player I have ever seen, and I didn't like him at all. The dominance of the bulls in his era was sickening.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Biltong wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
And on another point your right about culture, sure your culture in terms of team culture maybe founded on a different basis to teams in NZ, but I bet they are just as important to your players as they it is to ours, just ask them...

Just dont confuse game plan with culture.

sure, I am referring to culture more as a mindset than a gameplan, goes towards the attitude with which we play the game, it needs to be more positive.

Honestly Biltong I dont think your players are that far away, What I see of the South Africans is ( and I maybe wrong) but they must get their culture right first and the rest will follow.But you cant make allowances for habana's attitude in defence like we all saw last weekend.

Lauire, I know I am harping on this "smart play" thought, but you are correct, whether it is Habana that breaks the defensive line, or de Villiers who runs his support runner into touch that allows a kamakazi AAC to tackle both, or a Zane Kirchner who doesn't know how to draw a player in an overlap and then to pass in front of the wing, or a Dean Greyling with his 2 penalties and a yellow nonsense in 10 minutes of play, it all has to do with stupidity.

Biltong
I'll phrase it this way, Greyling could be to South Africa what Brad Thorn was to New Zealand in 2011..............Thats how highly I rate him.

And Van Der Merwe is six inches behind him..

Greyling has shown he is a very poor scrummager, it all started last year when we sent that shyte team to OZ and NZ and he was taught a lesson, ontop of that he is an idiot, undisciplined, yes he is a good ball carrier, but hopefully he never wears the jersey again.

The evolution of 3N`s to 4N`s has freshened up the tournament,Los Pumas have injected something different this year.Far from being everyones whipping boys they have done really well.If they can develop there backs skills they will be World Beaters soon.The stale format of playing the 3 SH sides endlessly thankfully has ended.Replace the 3RD Bledisloe Match with a match versus Samoa or the other Polynesian sides would be preferable.This year the Boks and Wallabies have suffered badly whilst rebuilding,BUT have succesfully discovered new players.WHEN they get to full strength they will again be formidable.This tourmnament is the most difficult in the world to win.Because it contested by the Worlds top 3 sides Home and away.For these three sides the only way is up.For the All Blacks this year has without really clicking been one of triumph.For them it is a case of levelling out or gradual decline as other sides
catch up.They now have only 4 players long term injured Boric,Ali Williams,Slade,and Kahui.Of these Boric may make the squad as Bench cover,Colin Slade sadly has missed the boat being overtaken by the young guns.Kahui IF you could keep him whole is the answer at 13 as a Conrad Smithreplacement but it is a big if.
With the AI`s coming up not wanting to risk the record but there is a case for starting Barrett against Italy.Rookie Hookers and others given bench time at some point the young guns have to be thrown in.
Myself don`t want to see AB`s losing but youngsters versus France or in the 4Ns isn`t clever.
Interesting to read Cobus Visagie Column on Planet Rugby,about the fact that
core skills.Are learn`t at School,Club,level like handling,kicking,tackling,running lines etc.BEFORE they get to Super/test level.
Also that NZ`s skils are developed at a very early age with non-contact 10 a side Touch rugby on smaller pitches for the Teenies 5 upwards.
That a team like Marist High School would field about 30 sides of various ages on the same day.