Nothing Much Has Changed Thinks Rafa

So much talk that the tennis landscape has changed and in particular it has changed because of Murray's win in the US. Nice to hear that someone agrees with me in that they see little change.

Via conference call, Nadal told a group of us on Tuesday that he doesn’t put much stock in the notion that the articles of tennis war have changed with Andy Murray’s recent, long-deferred transformation from major also-ran into Grand Slam champion.

“I don’t see a big difference now,” Nadal said

“Even if Murray didn’t win a Grand Slam before, the level was not different from before,” Nadal continued. “Now he won a Grand Slam. But that is not going to change my thought on this. Even if he was or even if he was not (a Grand Slam winner) he’s a fantastic player and that’s how I see him.”

Nadal also indicated that he will not be changing his schedule too much. (Sadly for Federer and Djokovic who must have had their fingers crossed he would just stick to having gentle work outs playing challengers on clay in South America...)

But he outright rejected the option of drastically reducing his participation in courts that are least friendly to his legs.

“My feeling is that the hard courts is more aggressive (harmful) for my knees and ankles. But today, it’s one of the most important surfaces. I don’t have a lot of chance to change my schedule. If I want to stay at the top level, I have to accept this.”

http://www.tennis.com/news/2012/10/bodo-rafa-bites-bullet/39721/#.UHUR4K5Bat8

Good comments from Nadal. Improving the second serve and beefing up the forehand are not radical changes to the Murray game, it is not like he is suddenly serve volleying on every third point, but they were what was needed. Same with the demeanor, he was not getting demoralised when his final oppenents stepped it up like he was before, not a huge game change but important. As Nadal said, he was a fantastic player before.....

But Rafa said nothing about "improving the second serve and beefing up the forehand"? And from what I read about Murray's demeanor when under pressure in his last match sounds like the usual Murray to me. As Nadal said he was a fantastic player before and he is the SAME fantastic player now.

Anyway as I've said elsewhere Murray's relative weakness with his forehand is not his inability to hit the odd forehand winner it's more of a whole game thing. So "beefing up" the odd forehand winner doesn't change anything that's always been part of his game. The modern game is generally based on getting the ball on your forehand and then dictating or taking control with it. Murray doesn't do this. No matter how good a players backhand is I can't think of a player that is able to use a backhand in the same way.

If it makes you feel any better I didn't believe in Novak mark 2 in 2011 either...

hawkeye wrote:But Rafa said nothing about "improving the second serve and beefing up the forehand"? And from what I read about Murray's demeanor when under pressure in his last match sounds like the usual Murray to me. As Nadal said he was a fantastic player before and he is the SAME fantastic player now.

Anyway as I've said elsewhere Murray's relative weakness with his forehand is not his inability to hit the odd forehand winner it's more of a whole game thing. So "beefing up" the odd forehand winner doesn't change anything that's always been part of his game. The modern game is generally based on getting the ball on your forehand and then dictating or taking control with it. Murray doesn't do this. No matter how good a players backhand is I can't think of a player that is able to use a backhand in the same way.

If it makes you feel any better I didn't believe in Novak mark 2 in 2011 either...

What you believe in and don't is largely irrelevant to me. Did Nadal emphatically state that nothing at all had changed or was it the usual nothing much has really changed? Do you expect full details from him? As I said it is all in the interpretation.

Murray is doing just fine in the modern game thanks, his forehand isn't as consistent a weapon as it is for some others but far better than it was and allowing him to dictate off that side far more.

Nadal would never pinpoint where Murray's game had improved specifically...none of the players really do that. They tend to speak platitudes in interviews...but many interviewers/observers hang off their every word.

What did Cantona say about journo's - was roundly ridiculed at the time (probably too deep for the footballing community to quite take in) but was actually a good comment:

"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea".

Common sense from Nadal; he's right that Murrays win doesn't change anything; Murray was a threat before, he's a threat now.

He's also right that he has to play hardcourt - I never believed this idea that he'd head off to S America while everyone else is in Indian Wells & Miami.

Except that playing in south America doesn't keep you from playing in Indian wells or miami the last latin American clay court finishes 1-2 weeks before Indian wells depending on the year. So unlike what one would be lead to believe by your statement nothing prevents players from playing in south america and then playing at Indian wells. The last latin American clay court in acapulco is like 90 minute flight away from Indian wells and in the same time zone.

I think I disagree with Nadal, I am sure he is telling himself nothing has changed. But I think Murray is going to be a much tougher out in a slam now after his wimby, olympic, and uso experience taken as a whole. Rafa would love to think and believe nothing has changed but I don't know if I believe that or if he himself doesn't have some doubts when he says that. It is too soon to tell. But if I was going to make a prediction it would be that murray will be more formidable as a result of his slam winning experience.

Living in the here and now and yes nothing has changed. Murray has got rid of the monkey off his back in terms of winning a Slam.

The new year will tell us how far Andy has come under Lendl and now with the US Open win under his belt and also the state of Nadal's body in relation to his style of play.

There hasn't really been enough events really to underline any significant change. If anything Andy will have less pressure on him going into future Slams.

socal1976 wrote:Except that playing in south America doesn't keep you from playing in Indian wells or miami the last latin American clay court finishes 1-2 weeks before Indian wells depending on the year. So unlike what one would be lead to believe by your statement nothing prevents players from playing in south america and then playing at Indian wells. The last latin American clay court in acapulco is like 90 minute flight away from Indian wells and in the same time zone.

I made the fairly obvious leap that adding extra clay tournaments to an already busy schedule in order to protect his knees wasn't actually what anybody imagined, as it's hard to see how that would help, and so the S American discussions were about substituting for IW & Miami.

Well then, Nadal is avoiding a clay showdown with Bellucci. Says it all really. Federer and Novak will be more nervous of Murray and Tsonga than Nadal on hard.

The biggest difference at the top of men's tennis since Murray won the USO is likely to have occurred in the space between Murray's ears. I expect him to be a far tougher opponent for the top 3, including Nadal, at the HC slams and Wimbledon.

Nadal, of course, has found a polite way of not acknowleding that - he'd be a fool to say anything else, but he'll find out whether Murray is a tougher opponent soon enough.

Interested to see that schedule-wise Nadal's going to change nothing; for my part I wondered, but it's in keeping with what we know of the guy that he's not going to shy away from the biggest challenges in the game. We'll see if he throws everything at IW/Miami as before or whether earlier exits become the norm.

Rafa is not a "part-time" kinda person.. I dont think early exits will be in his plan of recovery.. I think it will be all or nothing. He said recently that he will not enter a tournament unless he thinks he can win it. He has done what he has HAD to do to avoid surgery (and who can blame him for that) HC will of course be a test for him and he may well be concerned about the affects on his knees but he knows that everybody will be watching and waiting. I believe that he will be up for that challenge when he feels he is ready to take to the court. ..when he isnt then I think he will retire.

Nadal doesnt like talking about other players and how good they are. You notice when asked about Federer, he says 'the greatest ever' in a sarcastic way and then moves off subject. Nadal again has to keep up his Mr Serious image, while secretly wishing all the questions were about how good he is, and how he is the best clay player ever. Sick of the interviewers always giving him easy questions. BIASED.

If he's secretly wishing it - how do you know?

You seem to know a lot about the way Rafa thinks...

JM has decoded the different meanings of the variations of the Nadal butt scratching system. Once you have the code it reads like an open book.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Nadal doesnt like talking about other players and how good they are. You notice when asked about Federer, he says 'the greatest ever' in a sarcastic way and then moves off subject. Nadal again has to keep up his Mr Serious image, while secretly wishing all the questions were about how good he is, and how he is the best clay player ever. Sick of the interviewers always giving him easy questions. BIASED.

Im sure he does not need to be told he is the best clay court player ever... he, as even Federer acknowledges, already knows that.

bogbrush wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Except that playing in south America doesn't keep you from playing in Indian wells or miami the last latin American clay court finishes 1-2 weeks before Indian wells depending on the year. So unlike what one would be lead to believe by your statement nothing prevents players from playing in south america and then playing at Indian wells. The last latin American clay court in acapulco is like 90 minute flight away from Indian wells and in the same time zone.

I made the fairly obvious leap that adding extra clay tournaments to an already busy schedule in order to protect his knees wasn't actually what anybody imagined, as it's hard to see how that would help, and so the S American discussions were about substituting for IW & Miami.

No you obviously have the same reading comprehension problem when it comes to your own posts as you do to mine. That is why you said he can't be playing in S. AMerica while everyone else is at Indian Wells and miami. Why on earth would he be there alone when there are no tournaments going on? I had discussions with others suggesting Nadal foregoe Dubai and abu Dhabi (before AO) and go to south America instead and save 6 weeks of training on hardcourts. Those voices you hear talking about him substituting Acapulco for miami and Indian Wells can be taken care of with high dose medication.

barrystar wrote:The biggest difference at the top of men's tennis since Murray won the USO is likely to have occurred in the space between Murray's ears. I expect him to be a far tougher opponent for the top 3, including Nadal, at the HC slams and Wimbledon.

Nadal, of course, has found a polite way of not acknowleding that - he'd be a fool to say anything else, but he'll find out whether Murray is a tougher opponent soon enough.

Interested to see that schedule-wise Nadal's going to change nothing; for my part I wondered, but it's in keeping with what we know of the guy that he's not going to shy away from the biggest challenges in the game. We'll see if he throws everything at IW/Miami as before or whether earlier exits become the norm.

On point Barry, I am big advocate of IMBL's proposal by the way to change Indian Wells and miami to grass on a side note. I agree Barry, Murray in a big 5 set match is going to be better and have more belief because of he 2 months from the olympics to the end of the USO. When you play tennis you are also playing against your own personal baggage on the court as much as you are your opponent. Murray just has a whole lot less demons and baggage on the court now then he did 3 months ago. He is made man so to speak.

socal1976 wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Except that playing in south America doesn't keep you from playing in Indian wells or miami the last latin American clay court finishes 1-2 weeks before Indian wells depending on the year. So unlike what one would be lead to believe by your statement nothing prevents players from playing in south america and then playing at Indian wells. The last latin American clay court in acapulco is like 90 minute flight away from Indian wells and in the same time zone.

I made the fairly obvious leap that adding extra clay tournaments to an already busy schedule in order to protect his knees wasn't actually what anybody imagined, as it's hard to see how that would help, and so the S American discussions were about substituting for IW & Miami.

No you obviously have the same reading comprehension problem when it comes to your own posts as you do to mine. That is why you said he can't be playing in S. AMerica while everyone else is at Indian Wells and miami. Why on earth would he be there alone when there are no tournaments going on? I had discussions with others suggesting Nadal foregoe Dubai and abu Dhabi (before AO) and go to south America instead and save 6 weeks of training on hardcourts. Those voices you hear talking about him substituting Acapulco for miami and Indian Wells can be taken care of with high dose medication.

Here we go again.....

His only rational choice would be to off to S America as an alternative spring programme, while everyone else is headed into the early season hard court programme. Nobody in their right mind, in suggesting he may choose S America would ever have thought he could be doing both whether or not it physically possible. I mean, how does that relate to the matter of protecting his knees, which would be all about getting away from intense hard court events? True, you might have thought that possible, but....

HE was right then - nothing much has changed.
I will be offline until Friday - I will ask the Admins to keep an eye on you two. They may not be as lenient as I am.

socal do you mean doha before AO not dubai? dubai is after AO.

Federer after the Olympics:

"It was obvious that Andy was going to become a better player over the years. Obviously he has now learned how to play more aggressively. He's more consistent. All these things are obviously minor tweaks, but they make a big difference at the highest of levels," Federer said.

"I was very happy for him, that he was able to bring such a performance and bring home the gold for Great Britain. It's a long time coming for him. He did great."

So Federer thinks Andy has tweaked his game, and the one area he specifically mentions is how he's more aggressive.

I tend to agree with Roger rather than Rafa. Murray himself has acknowledged his second serve is better, and I believe the forehand is way better too.

So I'm with Federer on this one.

No way will IW or Miami change to grass.
You try maintaining a set of grass courts out in the desert!!!

Djokovic will be exposed for the slow surface player he really is if they add a few grass 1000's. He already cried about the blue clay. Tipsarevic would slaughter him a few more times, the real number 1 in Serbia-Montenegro.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Djokovic will be exposed for the slow surface player he really is if they add a few grass 1000's. He already cried about the blue clay. Tipsarevic would slaughter him a few more times, the real number 1 in Serbia-Montenegro.

Unquestionably. The net-shy Serb was reported to have made 5 visits to the S&V well at the whole USO! Unsurprising when one considers the pitiful state of his net game.

Wasn't it during Wimbledon that a poster declared he was single handedly bringing S&V back

LuvSports! wrote:socal do you mean doha before AO not dubai? dubai is after AO.

No my suggestion was that he should not play doha eventhough I am aware it is PRIOR TO the AO. And then should skip Dubai immediately AFTER THE
AO. That way he has just the AO on hardcourt to play till he gets till mid March and Indian wells. He could still play Doha and the AO, go to south america and make IW by mid march no problem. I just suggested that extra week or two of hardcourt play for 250 points is poor scheduling. The reason Nadal does go to Doha and Dubai is simple the Emir of Qatar and Emir of Dubai pay all the top guys big 6 figure appearance fees for just showing up. That is why he has chosen to spend an extra 6 weeks a year on hardcourt, well he can easily change his own decision to not take the money and also play several less weeks of hardcourt tennis in his season. But in my opinion he shortsightedly has gone for the big pay day tied to these two minor hardcourt events.

lydian wrote:No way will IW or Miami change to grass.
You try maintaining a set of grass courts out in the desert!!!

Why would that be difficulty lydian I live in this area, no problem at all. The grass will love it when they are given a good watering the get sun all day. The palm springs area is the biggest golf hotspot in the entire world and the golf courses are all well manicured and green how is that possible in the desert. Southern California is filled with beautiful grass pitches and the whole place is a dessert just like Las Vegas. Dessert is actually wonderful for planets if you just bring it enough water.

I do apologize lydian and take this respectfully but it seems like you disagree with me out of course sometimes. Also I don't get how you speak up for people or defend them when they are caught in an obvious case of misrepresenting someones position purposefully. I hope this does not offend you and I don't mean it as a negative you can agree and defend who you like. But this comment and yesterday being the only one to defend BB's egregious conduct leaves me scratching my head a bit.

JuliusHMarx wrote:HE was right then - nothing much has changed.
I will be offline until Friday - I will ask the Admins to keep an eye on you two. They may not be as lenient as I am.

Yes, well you are the one who has established the precedent that it is open season on Socal, so don't think I won't defend myself. Racial abuse, chopped up 4 word misquotes, lies; as long as it is directed at me it is cool. But if Socal actually points out that your post is factually wrong now all of a sudden I am the bad guy.

I don't think we can say for sure what Rafa will do next year or for the rest if his career. Of course, when asked the question now he is going to say "everything will be fine, I will play all the tournaments" but it would be crazy to state otherwise right now. He's doing what he should do, keeping positive and not leaving room for too many doubts in the media.

Hopefully he will come back just as before, but we just don't know yet.

socal1976 wrote:

lydian wrote:No way will IW or Miami change to grass.
You try maintaining a set of grass courts out in the desert!!!

Why would that be difficulty lydian I live in this area, no problem at all. The grass will love it when they are given a good watering the get sun all day. The palm springs area is the biggest golf hotspot in the entire world and the golf courses are all well manicured and green how is that possible in the desert. Southern California is filled with beautiful grass pitches and the whole place is a dessert just like Las Vegas. Dessert is actually wonderful for planets if you just bring it enough water.

I do apologize lydian and take this respectfully but it seems like you disagree with me out of course sometimes. Also I don't get how you speak up for people or defend them when they are caught in an obvious case of misrepresenting someones position purposefully. I hope this does not offend you and I don't mean it as a negative you can agree and defend who you like. But this comment and yesterday being the only one to defend BB's egregious conduct leaves me scratching my head a bit.

Fair enough points. I just don't think changing to grass at that time of year should be a goer.

I think you're being a tad too sensitive with the disagreements going on...
1. I was not disagreeing with you but IMBL's original idea of IW/Miami grass change
2. I don't disagree with you out of course but for legitimately held reasons
3. I don't speak up for anyone or defend them on here unless I deem it necessary
4. I am not aware I defended anyone's position yesterday...unless you mean the Gilbert/McEnroe thing which I explained via ambiguity
5. I am not offended by your comments.

Fair enough I thought I would come to the source when some of your posts left me scratching my head. Here is why I think it would be a great idea. The players would play on natural surfaces and PRACTICE more crucially on clay or grass from FEb to pretty much August. It would eliminate a whole month of play and a whole month of practice from the hardcourt calendar. That would go along way to make the players on tour as whole feeel a lot healthier and it would be a leg up to variety and attack tennis.

.

socal1976 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:HE was right then - nothing much has changed.
I will be offline until Friday - I will ask the Admins to keep an eye on you two. They may not be as lenient as I am.

Yes, well you are the one who has established the precedent that it is open season on Socal, so don't think I won't defend myself. Racial abuse, chopped up 4 word misquotes, lies; as long as it is directed at me it is cool. But if Socal actually points out that your post is factually wrong now all of a sudden I am the bad guy.

Who are you saying racially abuses you?

Please clarify, that's really quite important.

It would only work if AO went to grass also.

I thought my post yesterday was clear. By lumping Gilbert in with McEnroe it was hard to know if you thought the 80s were actually bad or not as Gilbert was commonly known to be nowhere near Mac's class. Had you not included Gilbert then clearly we would have known you were being "sarky".

However, I suspect you felt Gilbert was indeed a top player in the 80s (his record wasn't too bad) so it complemented your sarcastic statement. The problem is that I, and probably others like BB, feel Gilbert was a junk baller, a very negative player as McEnroe called him, so if you were saying that him being part of the top 10 was a joke we would agree with you - which made us question why you would include McEnroe being part of that same statement. Its not a matter of picking sides, do you not see the potential for ambiguity in the original statement...and why BB, for one, picked up on this?

Aside from that I do feel you're starting to take things too seriously or personal on here. My advice is to just let it wash and know that sometimes others may not read the statements as you intended them.

lydian wrote:
1. I was not disagreeing with you but IMBL's original idea of IW/Miami grass change

bogbrush wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:HE was right then - nothing much has changed.
I will be offline until Friday - I will ask the Admins to keep an eye on you two. They may not be as lenient as I am.

Yes, well you are the one who has established the precedent that it is open season on Socal, so don't think I won't defend myself. Racial abuse, chopped up 4 word misquotes, lies; as long as it is directed at me it is cool. But if Socal actually points out that your post is factually wrong now all of a sudden I am the bad guy.

Who are you saying racially abuses you?

Please clarify, that's really quite important.

Well I saw the incident.
It wasn't you (the person who made the racist comments), if that's what you would have liked Socal to clear up.
Anyway I'm not admin on this site- they judge the situation as they see fit (as they have every right to , of course if you have any suggestions you could PM them, or post on the 'feedback' part of the site I suppose.

Sorry IMBL...just don't think it could be implemented...would require 3 major tourneys digging up courts. Surely better to expand the grass/clay season? Wimb could go much further into summer without affecting the build up to North American HC season leading to USO.

Surely if it was racial abuse as stated that poster would now be banned.

lydian wrote:
do you not see the potential for ambiguity in the original statement...and why BB, for one, picked up on this?

I understood what Socal was saying, but I can type of understand why it may have been ambiguous for some.
In future I think if the comments are cleared up (before anyone debunks/supports it) then that would avoid any misunderstanding.

Surely if it was racial abuse as stated that poster would now be banned.

lydian wrote:Sorry IMBL...just don't think it could be implemented...would require 3 major tourneys digging up courts. Surely better to expand the grass/clay season? Wimb could go much further into summer without affecting the build up to North American HC season leading to USO.

How long would it take for a surface to switch from HC to grass/clay Lydian?
1-2 years?

I tried to say that yesterday IMBL, I pointed out the ambiguity but got no reply.

Not long but I just don't see them changing.

What's their incentive to spend all that money? Plus higher maintenance costs.

lydian wrote:I tried to say that yesterday IMBL, I pointed out the ambiguity but got no reply.

Yes, but as I said, if you think a comment is ambiguous you should clear it up, before attacking it.

lydian wrote:Not long but I just don't see them changing.

What's their incentive to spend all that money? Plus higher maintenance costs.

Realistically I agree it seems very unlikely... I was just offering up an 'possible surface distribution' rather than what I thought would realistically happen.

It Must Be Love wrote:

lydian wrote:I tried to say that yesterday IMBL, I pointed out the ambiguity but got no reply.

Yes, but as I said, if you think a comment is ambiguous you should clear it up, before attacking it.

Hey? I didn't attack it. I said yesterday "To be fair that sentence either has all 3 players stated being sarcastically rubbish, or they're all great. There's no hint of a different meaning for different players within the same sentence. The problem is by lobbing in Gilbert, who was clearly a very different class to the others, it is hard to know which way to read that statement."

lydian wrote:Surely if it was racial abuse as stated that poster would now be banned.

You'd think so wouldn't you?

Given socal's emphasis on criticising me I think it appropriate he makes it clear it was not me. It's disappointing that he hasn't one that but perhaps he has left for now and will do so when he returns. Certainly I've never done anything that could even be interpreted that way, but to many members his post could easily cause them to think otherwise. It's very important he sets that record straight.

lydian wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

lydian wrote:I tried to say that yesterday IMBL, I pointed out the ambiguity but got no reply.

Yes, but as I said, if you think a comment is ambiguous you should clear it up, before attacking it.

Hey? I didn't attack it. I said yesterday "To be fair that sentence either has all 3 players stated being sarcastically rubbish, or they're all great. There's no hint of a different meaning for different players within the same sentence. The problem is by lobbing in Gilbert, who was clearly a very different class to the others, it is hard to know which way to read that statement."

No, no I wasn't talking about you.

Edit: On the thread I think BB was the one who attacked it, I was referring that he could have cleared it up. Apologies if I wasn't clear.