Newport Gwent Dragons want 'dual contract' talks for Dan Lydiate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19904718

I think this is fair enough from Dragons.

However I think the WRU are going about this the wrong way.

To start by mentioning th ey are considering Cardiff Blues and Roberts, before talking with the regions if central contracts will be indroduced so everyone knows where they stand.

In truth they should have agree they would be issuing central contracts, with the regions, asked gatland who his 20 most important players are and offered these players the contracts. Rolled out in one go, not this way of selecting players whos contract is ending then deciding if they will assist the region or not.

The WRU didn't mention that they were considering a dual contract for Roberts.

Peter Thomas mentioned it.

You shouldn't be surprised that the WRU are doing things in such a haphazard way!

WRU doing things the wrong way - now there's a shock

have the wru come out and said anything about the matter?

Not that I know of, but even if they did, it would be in impenetrable business-speak.

It is an intresting development, and we can only guess that the PWC report, recomended central contracts.

Now will this see the funds that the WRU give
"WRU stated that it already contributes £6m a year to the four Welsh regions to help fund the salaries of Welsh international players. "

Will this decrease and be put toward Central contacts (to make sure the money is used for players wages) or will the Central contracts be bonuses for the region that has the player?

How many players wil get central contracts? 10, 15, 20?

Some people have been happy to see players leave to learn more abroad and open up a space at a region for a younger player to develop, but you will never win anything shipping off players when at thier peak.

You need a mix, young players will learn more coming into a successful team, and competing in the bigger games, knock out h-cup and playoffs. To reach these you need a mixx of young players with top quality experienced players, central contracts will help in this regard.

Howley has now come out and said 'dual contracts' are being looked into.

munkian wrote:Howley has now come out and said 'dual contracts' are being looked into.

From the article i've read it sounds more like his opinion than the WRU actually looking into it.

I have no problems with the dual contracts, but if they go down the route of moving players from the regions they belong at (Lydiate & Faletau good examples, belong at the Dragons) to regions where they would be more beneficial (Toby to Scarlets, Lydiate to Blues) then I would be most miffed, and sadly I can see the WRU doing that.

'More beneficial' to who?

Luckless - what I meant by that was that if the WRU were to look at Lydiate and say, well he is wasted at the Dragons move him to the Blues, or with Faletau that he is wasted sitting in the Amlin move him to the Scarlets because they are short on No.8s, I would not be happy at all. (similarly if they said Jon Davies & Scott Williams should be at different regions etc)

If they are going to go down the dual contract route they need to ensure the player is allowed to play where they are wanted, but also where they want to be. Players perform far better when they are in an environment where they feel happiest.

I've said on another thread that that's what worries me about central contracts. If another region had financial help from the WRU to buy either of those two from us, I'd be beyond furious. If our best players are taken from us, how are we supposed to improve? It would condemn us to always being the lowest-placed region.

If either of them wanted to move, to France or England or even to another region, I wouldn't object: that would be their choice and I could understand it; but if the WRU helped another region get them, I would punch Roger Lewis's face in. Metaphorically. And then literally.

I get the feeling that with Dual Contracts the clubs/players are free to negotiate signings/contracts themselves but then the players negotiate a seperate contract with the WRU if they stay within Wales. So hopefully the WRU won't have any influence on where any players play.

However I am worried that the WRU could offer dual contracts to say Halfpenny, Roberts, AWJ, Ianto ect (if their contracts are going) yet not to Lydiate & Faletau - and also how do you rate between the current stalwarts in the national team - say Warbs for example and the up and coming players Navidi/Tupric ect - so say the WRU may pay a dual contract fot Warbs but may not for Tupric.

Howley spoke of dual/WRU contracts that were signed in the 1999-2001 period on nation radio last night.....he said that within 18 months of the contracts being signed 75% of the players werent representing wales anymore....

thats what worries me about central/dual contracts it creates too rigid a system and ties the coaches hand a little....look at ireland, their squad doesnt change over years despite good youngsters playing in the provinces...

or can someone explain to me how you could contract a player AND keep genuine competition for squad places?

I think the WRU will ask Gatland to pick who will be his 15-20 most important players for the next 3/4 years, and it will be these players offered the duel contracts.

When offered a contract the WRU will say we will pay X and the region will pay Y.

If all 4 regions are willing to pay Y the player will have his choice where to play.

However if for example Faletau is offered the contract and Dragons say they can't pay Y, and Scarlets and Ospreys can then he would move. (Dragons should be able to pay Y as it would be less than he's currently on)

The problem may arise if the WRU say they will pay X and the region will pay Y, but its left open for another region to offer Y+1. Regions will have to agree not to compete with each other, both offer Y (acceptable to the player), and player decides.

Maybe if you signed 2 seperate contracts 1. with your club for say 2 years, and another rolling 6 month contract with the WRU, then after each 6 month the WRU can decide whether to offer the player another 6 months, or if they're being pushed out of the side - they can say we're not giving you the dual contract now, but work hard, improve and get back in to the Wales team and you'll get the dual contract in 6 months time.

That way the system is flexible and encourages competitiveness.

Kingshu wrote:However if for example Faletau is offered the contract and Dragons say they can't pay Y, and Scarlets and Ospreys can then he would move.

But if one of the other regions was given financial assistance from the WRU so they could afford to pay Y, but the Dragons weren't, that would be bang out of order.

I think what Kingshu means is that the WRU would pay X to the player regardless of where [in Wales] he plays, as he's in the Wales squad. But with the player now expecting less money from a region, the Ospreys/Blues/Scarlets might be able to out bid the Dragons for their own player by offering the Y+ (if u see where I'm coming from)

It wouldn't be that the WRU is providing assitance to any region - they would just be giving the money to the player - yet because the Ospreys/Blues ect have more money than the Dragons and the player is demanding less from the regions then the Dragons could get out bid.

Well if when called up the WRU pay the regions contract to with the player for however long he is away and obviously bonuses for playing international rugby then it would allow the regions to pay there stars a good wage and actually get their money back as they won't be paying whilst the players off on international duty.

youngguns6 wrote:Well if when called up the WRU pay the regions contract to with the player for however long he is away and obviously bonuses for playing international rugby then it would allow the regions to pay there stars a good wage and actually get their money back as they won't be paying whilst the players off on international duty.

But would the regions realistically take a punt on whether or not that play will be called up when writing out the contracts. Taking Lydiate for an example, going by what you propose, the Dragons would have added an extra £X to his contract, as they would be expecting him to be away for the AIs and 6Ns, however now he is injured and the WRU will not be selecting him for either the AIs or 6Ns so they would not be paying the Dragons, which would leave the Dragons out of pocket.


Unless the regions put into the contrac that if a player gets called up they can get an extra £X to their contract, which would then also cause more players to push for international spots (for the cash), and if players fail to make the grade they just don't get he extra cash.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think what Kingshu means is that the WRU would pay X to the player regardless of where [in Wales] he plays, as he's in the Wales squad. But with the player now expecting less money from a region, the Ospreys/Blues/Scarlets might be able to out bid the Dragons for their own player by offering the Y+ (if u see where I'm coming from)

It wouldn't be that the WRU is providing assitance to any region - they would just be giving the money to the player - yet because the Ospreys/Blues ect have more money than the Dragons and the player is demanding less from the regions then the Dragons could get out bid.

I understood what he meant, what I'm saying is if the WRU gave another region extra funding so that they could outbid the Dragons, then that would be a disgrace.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think what Kingshu means is that the WRU would pay X to the player regardless of where [in Wales] he plays, as he's in the Wales squad. But with the player now expecting less money from a region, the Ospreys/Blues/Scarlets might be able to out bid the Dragons for their own player by offering the Y+ (if u see where I'm coming from)

It wouldn't be that the WRU is providing assitance to any region - they would just be giving the money to the player - yet because the Ospreys/Blues ect have more money than the Dragons and the player is demanding less from the regions then the Dragons could get out bid.

I understood what he meant, what I'm saying is if the WRU gave another region extra funding so that they could outbid the Dragons, then that would be a disgrace.

A bit like when they tell players that if they move region to another one they would be more likely to be selected as they will be playing in the HEC, or not having to compete for the jersey. I am sure that has never happened before

I swear I wouldn't put it past them.

The IRFU are aiming to have 23 on contract - and despite what is claimed by some conspiracy theorists, it doesn't block young players. For instance, Conor Murray or Eoin Reddan don't have central contracts and when Murray by-passed O'Leary, O'Leary had one. Similar situation happened with Peter Stringer, who didn't get it renewed when it was up for negotiation.

Sean O'Brien is another stalwart of the Irish team that doesn't have a central contract, but Paddy Wallace does, probably down to the fact that Ireland has plentiful supply of backrow players, but not very many inside centres.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Wales 7s team is centrally contracted. How does that work?

Edit: The blockage for Ireland is that the players only want to play for their home province and its hard to get them to move.

The sevens tend to train with a region, and be available to that region when not required by the 7s side, or in times of crisis, and the WRU pay the player with the region just giving a slight top up on it. A good example is Cuthbert, he was on something like £14k from the WRU for the 7s and then £5k from the Blues for the training and if they wanted to feild him (like during the RWC last season). The Scarlets have a fair few 7s players on their books, and we rarely see them play for the region, except for the start of the season, and sometimes as AI/6Ns cover.

I think most 7s players in Wales don't feature much for their 15 a side region/club, as such they don't get paid much by their region and (I believe) get a larger contract from the WRU. Richie Pugh for example is a Scarlets player and a Wales 7s player, yet rarely ever features for the Scarlets and is made available whenever the 7s need him.

Something like that anyway.

With Ireland, do you mean that the coach can call up whoever they wish (even a whole team of youngsters) and the central contracts doesn't reflect actual squad selections, but are just who Kidney/the IRFU think are more likely to get called up (so O'Driscoll/O'Connor/Kearney for example).

The IRFU own the provinces (clubs) - so all pro players are employees of the IRFU. During the last world cup Munster sent out 3 hookers to NZ (Jerry Flannery got injured and replaced by Varley. Then there were ?s over Rory Best's fitness, and Mike Sherry was sent out, but didn't even meet up with the squad). He was not on central contract and Munster were down 3 hookers to the international team. I'd imagine your Regions would tell Gatty where to go if something like that happened.

The central contracts are given out to the players who get big tempting offers from abroad (the best players usually) and then you'd have the likes of Paddy Wallace & Ronan O'Gara who are at the end of their careers who are not too pushed about sitting on the bench anymore. I heard that Ronan O'Gara asked to not go on the tour to NZ this year and he was told he had to. If he wasn't on a central contract, he could do that.

Can they then please move some b****y decent props to us down at Dave

WRU stated that it already contributes £6m a year to the four Welsh regions to help fund the salaries of Welsh international players, so where would the extra funding to just one region come from,

To be fair though if a region has more players on central contracts it will be saving more money than another region to put toward, non central contract/NWQ players.

I know however that the IRFU, decided to assist Ulster, since we had less players on central contracts, by balancing this by giving us more money for NIQ players, so we all recieved on average the same. We upgraded on NIQ, Pienaar, Muller Afoa, and now are at the top to be bringing players back through that will earn central contract in future and less on NIQ players, hence Bowe back on central contract, Gilroy and Jackson may get them in future, Irish team and Central contracts is likly to be fairly evenly spread between the 3 in future. Ulster just needed a boost to get back on track.

So Dragons fans, don't get to annoyed the Ospreys and Scarlets are likly to get the most central contracts, if the WRU do act like IRFU, they will say Ok you haven't got as many international players as the others, but we want you to be in future, once acamady is is line we will help fund to bring in top NWQ so they young players are entering a successful team, as these players earn central contracts, we will reduce the NWQ funding accordingly.

Kingshu you make some good points there.

Reading through the debates between Irish fans over central contracting it is not ideal. As many pro's as con's.

We need something though and we will probably have to invent our own system to suit Wales.

MM

Like we did with 'regions'?