Los Pumas: the birth of a superpower?

By JeffRo, 16 Oct 2012

This year we saw the southern big three initiate Argentina into what is now being called the Rugby Championship.
With six out of seven world cups awarded between the Springboks, Wallabies and All Blacks, this truly is the annual heavyweight championship of rugby.
With such success, why change? What will Argentina bring? Could they be the next big thing?
The success of the tri-nations as a tournament was unquestioned. But how will the new format impact on rugby in the long term?
Number of games? We went from playing each other twice, to three times. So that horse was flogged.
Island nations? Would have been OK from a pure rugby point of view, but beyond that, there was nothing more for the existing nations.
The three big southern hemisphere teams have a responsibility to build up rugby in the island nations, but not in the Rugby Championship.
Argentina, were third in the 2007 World Cup. They are respected in their home country and they have a big enough population.
They always appeared to be an option for expansion, but with the bronze medal performance at the ’07 Rugby World Cup, it became pretty clear they were the option in the southern hemisphere.
One year in the Rugby Championship has proven one thing to Argentina, this is tougher than the World Cup. There are no easy games.
But they were competitive. They drew against the Boks and had two losses within seven points. They put in creditable performances against both South Africa and New Zealand in their backyards.
There was one decent flogging at the hands of New Zealand. But in context, the All Blacks are very good in 2012. Just ask the Wallabies.
They will climb the rankings and get better as they find their feet in the Championship. They may be fourth in the southern hemisphere, but they are capable of more than challenging a lot of the northern hemisphere teams.
They will be a rugby superpower in 10-15 years. Why?
The Pumas, while not being football, are a respected brand in their own country. And while Argentina has economic challenges, they are big enough to provide the cash to compete with their Rugby Championship foes.
They have improved strongly through the professional era, with many of their players playing in Europe.
Being in the Rugby Championship is the piece in the puzzle of success that Argentina couldn’t provide on their own. Up until now their great performances stood as singular achievements. Now they have a yearly focus.
The level of their rugby will rise. The profile of the sport will rise. Their winning percentage will rise.
It is only a matter of time before an All Black captain is discussing their first defeat to Argentina.
What a fantastic boost for rugby that will be. What a boost to southern hemisphere rugby that will be. For the All Blacks, Wallabies and Boks to have a higher profile in South America will be the pay back these three unions wanted.
Is the rugby world ready for another contender?

Yes.

That's a great piece of writing AF, where does "JeffRo" write?

He is on the Roar Pete.

I firmly beleive by 2019 Argentina will be a top six nation, the experience over the next 6 or so seasons will improve their back play immensely and they will mix it with the big boys, they already beat France on a regular enough basis, since 2000 they have a good record against wales, Ireland and Scotland, so it only leaves SA, Aus, NZ and England that they need to win against on a more regular basis.

Top six definitely, top 5 perhaps. They will also get more regular tests by having joined the Rugby Championship.

I hope the Argie players start choosing to play against the best in the world in the Super XV. This way they will get up to speed on a week in/week out basis. I think the Heineken Cup is a great comp but the best players in the world generally come from Aus, SA and NZ (look at the rankings) and they all play in the Super XV. Therefore, if you want to become a better player you need to move south. Money will always talk though.

That’s just my opinion, I can’t think of one AB who went north and became a better player....

And Nick Evans was great before he left!

I am pretty sure it will happen slowly over the next few years mintie.

There are already two from memory that are going to play in the Super XV next year.

Interesting, chewed_mintie.

I can't think of many NH players who have spent a sabbatical in the SH playing with "the best players"; Cipriani and Haskell are the only two I can call to mind. Delve's still down there, isn't he? His international career is more or less finished though, isn't it?

Are there many who go South and come back better?

Rinsure wrote:Interesting, chewed_mintie.

I can't think of many NH players who have spent a sabbatical in the SH playing with "the best players"; Cipriani and Haskell are the only two I can call to mind. Delve's still down there, isn't he? His international career is more or less finished though, isn't it?

Are there many who go South and come back better?

Freddie Michalak's playing pretty well post his Sharks stint.

Restrictions on numbers of imports and relatively low wages mean there aren't too many NH players heading South.

The Pumas have always been difficult at home,and of all the tier 2 Nations that is not meant as an insult.They are arguably the nearest to tier1,RWC apart they have seldom fielded full strength teams.This year they have been a breath of fresh air and COULD have won a couple of games.
A Super 15 team would certainly help dump one of the OZ sides so there players would`nt be so thinly spread .Would in my opinion improve both countries sides [for what my opinion is worth.
As to soon celebrating a victory over the AllBlacks,well a lot of countries have played them a lot of games and are still waiting.
As to players getting better after leaving NZ not perhaps ABs but good servants of there clubs.Bruce Reihana,Regan King,Ben Blair,Rikki Fluety,Jamie Salmon?

I think Argentina and South American rugby is on the rise. The B side plays Chile, Uruguay and on other (I think) each year. That has to bring up the standard over time. The number of professional players they now have and rugby championship have to be a bonus. I think the Achilles heal in Argentinian rugby is the staunch amateur nature of the game. It prohibits devloping a home grown professional league and limits the player base.

Julian white came back a monster.haskell is twice the player he was 3 years ago.

Sorry but I disagree. In the short term Argentina rugby will get worse rather than better.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Sorry but I disagree. In the short term Argentina rugby will get worse rather than better.

Care to elaborate why AWoP? I can see a few potential banana skins
-More exposure to international rugby lets other teams "work them out" - a kind of "second season syndrome
-The French clubs get annoyed at losing players for the start of Top14 and exert pressure
-Increased injury rates see depth tested

Personally I can see them taking a little while to make an impact in TRC. Especially as no-one will be taking them for granted next season. That said, the increased time together will see them picking up a few more wins in the AIs and June internationals, so I doubt their world ranking will slip too much.

BTW, I've just noticed the new location. Hope the house move went well.

The second season is always tougher than the first. The euphoria, excitement and passion dies down just enough for reality to set in. Argentina wouldn't want to be the wipping boys of the SH for the fore seeable future, so their pride must stay in tact.

They will rightfully not be under estimated next season, but they now know what to expect, in the last deacde they have a near enough 50% (either just over or just under) win rate against all the celtic nations and will only get more prepared to battle these teams, I believe their depth will perhaps take a couple of years to settle, but once some of their players have settled into the Super rugby comp, and they form some form of professional or semi professional league they will be successful.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Sorry but I disagree. In the short term Argentina rugby will get worse rather than better.

Care to elaborate why AWoP? I can see a few potential banana skins
-More exposure to international rugby lets other teams "work them out" - a kind of "second season syndrome
-The French clubs get annoyed at losing players for the start of Top14 and exert pressure
-Increased injury rates see depth tested

Personally I can see them taking a little while to make an impact in TRC. Especially as no-one will be taking them for granted next season. That said, the increased time together will see them picking up a few more wins in the AIs and June internationals, so I doubt their world ranking will slip too much.

BTW, I've just noticed the new location. Hope the house move went well.

Yes all those reasons. But also just instability. When any union evolves from essentially "shamateur" (or genuinely amateur in some cases) to fully professional then there are growing pains. This is true in any organisation. There will be incorrect appointments, poor selections, a change in attitudes... Look at the giant dip in Welsh performance on the onset of professionalism. Argentina lack a genuinely first class professional domestic league, and no team survives professionalism on that basis.

Argentina are playing catch-up and this is a different scenario to the other major playing nations who evolved into professionalism together.

Also, for an example look at the way SA arrived back into international competition with a bang and then faded badly before they found the way forward.

emack2 wrote:The Pumas have always been difficult at home,and of all the tier 2 Nations that is not meant as an insult.They are arguably the nearest to tier1,RWC apart they have seldom fielded full strength teams.

Argentina are most definitely not a Tier 2 side. IRB Strategic Plan from November 2004: "* The Tier 1 Unions are: Argentina; Australia; England; France; Ireland; Italy; New Zealand; Scotland; South Africa and Wales. ** The Tier 2 Unions are: Canada; Fiji; Japan; Romania; Samoa; Tonga and the USA."
Let's neither insult nor overly flatter them.

The Results for Argentina since 2001 demonstrate that:

Against Italy - 11 matches 9-2 (82%)
Against France - 12 matches 8-4 67%)
Against Scotland - 9 matches 6-3 (67%)
Against Wales - 8 matches 4-4 (50%)
Against Ireland - 8 matches 3-5 (37%)
Against England - 6 matches 2-4 (33%)
Against SA - 8 matches 0-8 (0%)
Against Aus - 4 matches 0-4 (0%)
Against NZ - 7 matches 0-7 (0%)

They play Ireland, Wales and France this Autumn. Plenty of ranking points at stake.

Pot Hale wrote:
Argentina are most definitely not a Tier 2 side. IRB Strategic Plan from November 2004: "* The Tier 1 Unions are: Argentina; Australia; England; France; Ireland; Italy; New Zealand; Scotland; South Africa and Wales. ** The Tier 2 Unions are: Canada; Fiji; Japan; Romania; Samoa; Tonga and the USA."
Let's neither insult nor overly flatter them.

Samoa are ranked higher than Italy. How can Italy be tier 1 and Samoa tier 2? That makes no sense.

I don't think most people would think of scotland or Italy as tier one.

It is not only about rankings AWOP, it is about having a developed professional structure as well.

Scotland and Italy have developed professional structures? really? I thought they were bankrupt and led by foreigners?

anotherworldofpain wrote:Scotland and Italy have developed professional structures? really? I thought they were bankrupt and led by foreigners?

seriously?

Biltong wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Scotland and Italy have developed professional structures? really? I thought they were bankrupt and led by foreigners?

seriously?

No - and even responding to this kind of base trolling is really a waste of your time, and everyone else's.

Pot Hale wrote:

Biltong wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Scotland and Italy have developed professional structures? really? I thought they were bankrupt and led by foreigners?

seriously?

No - and even responding to this kind of base trolling is really a waste of your time, and everyone else's.

Base trolling, or opinion based on fact?

So the problems for the SRU stem back to atleast 1990, according to this document:

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/HOM000012010001.pdf

...and have not been resolved satisfactorily seeing Scotland regrettably withdraw from the 7's world circuit for financial reasons until the IRB bailed them out and added a leg of the 7's tournament at MurrayField...

Doesn't sound terribly tier 1 to me.

Agree that Argie will need to find a more supportive foundation. This year they were boosted by their performances and they're ability to remain competitive until probably the final two matches has to be applauded.

So a draw from six matches is ok for this year as the results didn't matter so much as the ability to compete and they could have done better in a couple more results wise.

Next year will be all about results. The honeymoon is over. The pressure will be on to deliver and win matches.

Argie has yet to experience having to test its depth in the same way Oz, who last year won the 3N virtually injury free, and SA have recently.

Take out the top 5 players and would Argie be able to compete adequately?

The underlying structure is what wins this tournament and fortree sides that is the sxv and for NZ and SA the ITM and Currie cups.

B+ overall for this year I reckon for Argie- far above what I expected, but tempered by the fact that there's now a bigger expectation and Argie will need to back it up next year.

Its only a matter of time before an all black captain is discussing their first defeat to Argentina?!!!

at what sport exactly?

Was nearly 7s at the weekend. In beating oz, wales portugal and narrow losses to nz and france doing well there as well.

How old are the core of this side?what depth is there coming through?
When I said tier 1 was quoting the so called big 8 as tier 1 on games won /lost stats.They would rate IRB 3 or 4 on games played simply because they have`nt played that many.Theory says the more games you play the more you win BUT
France took a long way to catch up Italy have yet to do so,AWOP?when SA came back after isolation it was with a bang?
SA took 6 years to catch up with the 3Ns side 1998 the RWC win being the exception that proved the rule.They are still not at the level of there former selves pre1982 tho head to head they are formidable except perhaps versus NZ.

Argie Fan
Yes your team performed admirably in the four nations, and that was against the three highest rugby rated countrys in the World.

However there is one thing that Argentina must show some attempt in addressing and that is the flashing of lasers into the eyes of foreign goal kickers. this has been the subject of some discussion in this country, some possible suggestions have been:
1. Use the media prior to big Internationals that the culprits will be identified and/or banned from attending future games, publicly displyed via photographs.
2.If the incident is repeated, the referee get the local officials to make stadium announcements and ask members of the crowd to id people around them useing lasers.
3.If it carries on, the game is holted, that the "home" captain himself make an announcement/appeal over the stadium PA system.
4.If it still continues, then any missed goal taken after a kicker has been zapped, then that team gets the opportunity to take a rekick, even with a different kicker.
5. I think the problem will have been solved by now.

I see a few big hurdles for them to overcome.

Argentinas success has largely been built on playing spoiling tactics. They now need to be more positive in their approach. Thats easier said than done. Not only do they need better quality backs but they need to spend more time together with top quality coaches over a long period of time.

The standard of play in the top 14 is generally poor compared to super rugby. Its more of a grinding type of rugby. It has quality matches from time to time but they're in the minority. This helps the Argentina to have tough packs but they'll need more.

They have no domestic teams that play at a high level. In the next few seasons I can see many French teams dropping them or there'll be more Argentinian players picking up injuries and suffering from burnout. Italys inclusion in the 6 nations have not really helped them kick on over the years. Its only their inclusion in the rabo/celtic league 2 years ago that they've started to put in place solid foundations for the future. It will be interesting to see Italys progress compared to Argentinas progress.

I also see there being a mental hurdle to overcome. Argentina, like every other team, like to be the underdogs. Now they're not the underdogs anymore which takes away that bit of motivation going into matches. The opposition also are under less pressure to beat Argentina.

I think it will be many years before they'll win an away match in the rugby championship.

Profitius, I do agree with you that Argentina have always been a team that first and foremost would attmept to spoil opposition ball.

South Africa very nearly came unstuck due to their tactics.

But that is not the entire package when you delve deeper.

The reality is they do play wide, granted the skills are limited and I think they lack serious pace out wide. But the foundation is there to build from.

Any team wanting to be a top gun must firstly possess a strong pack. That is something that comes naturally to them.

Their kicking game doesn't lack either. Like many other teams they need to work on their attack and the decision making out wide. But who are we comparing them to after one season in the Rugby Championship, they scored as many tries as Australia.

Everyone looks poor compared to the All Blacks at the moment.

Biltong wrote:Profitius, I do agree with you that Argentina have always been a team that first and foremost would attmept to spoil opposition ball.

South Africa very nearly came unstuck due to their tactics.

But that is not the entire package when you delve deeper.

The reality is they do play wide, granted the skills are limited and I think they lack serious pace out wide. But the foundation is there to build from.

Any team wanting to be a top gun must firstly possess a strong pack. That is something that comes naturally to them.

Their kicking game doesn't lack either. Like many other teams they need to work on their attack and the decision making out wide. But who are we comparing them to after one season in the Rugby Championship, they scored as many tries as Australia.

Everyone looks poor compared to the All Blacks at the moment.

I don't question their ambition, its the lack of accuracy etc that is the problem. They have some good skillful players but you couldn't compare their attack to Australias when the Aussies have a near full team out. Argentina have a good pack and they give 100% effort every time but they're not great athletes. They lack pace out wide and ball carriers in the pack.

To have a good attack these days everybody needs to be on the same wavelength. It takes top coaching and time. Something Argentina need to make the next step up.

They will now have that time.

Yes I guess the question is what lies beneath the pro/ semi pro level for this side? What has been built on since the idea of them being able to compete in the RC was first launched with Argies success in 2007?

I'd have expected a team, or at least some of the players in the sxv by now. I know there are entry rules but it seems no one took up the effort in promoting it between 2007 and now.

Those laser guys looked fairly accurate from long range- the red one was a bit shaky but perhaps they'll have the skills?

Rinsure wrote:Interesting, chewed_mintie.

I can't think of many NH players who have spent a sabbatical in the SH playing with "the best players"; Cipriani and Haskell are the only two I can call to mind. Delve's still down there, isn't he? His international career is more or less finished though, isn't it?

Are there many who go South and come back better?

John Gallagher
Martin Johnson

that would be jonno as a junior all black not as an england maanger

mowgli wrote:that would be jonno as a junior all black not as an england maanger

Of course. We had Colin Meads train MJ. A great lock who never did particularly well managing a team