Heineken Cup Round 2- Connacht v Harlequins TEAMS UP

First topic message reminder :

"The date Jan 20th is etched in our memory"

Connor O'Shea was pretty blunt post Biarritz about the game this week away at Connacht; I don't think any Harlequins fans will have forgotten their sides shock defeat last season away to the Irish province, but for the players it's still especially raw.

Connacht come in to this game off the back of a pretty solid away win against Zebre. Harlequins will be pleased to have got a little momentum with their bonus point win over Biarritz, both teams also met in the pre-season with Quins taking the spoils but that will count for little.

Connacht Team News

15 Robbie Henshaw, 14 Tiernan O'Halloran, 13 Eoin Griffin, 12 Dave McSharry, 11 Fetu'u Vainikolo, 10 Dan Parks, 9 Kieran Marmion, 8 George Naoupu, 7 Willie Faloon, 6 John Muldoon, 5 Mike McCarthy, 4 Michael Swift, 3 Nathan White, 2 Adrian Flavin, 1 Dennis Buckley.

Replacements: 16 Jason Harris Wright, 17 Brett Wilkinson, 18 Ronan Loughney, 19 Dave Gannon, 20 Johnny O'Connor, 21 Dave Moore, 22 Miah Nikora, 23 Mata Fifita.

Harlequins Team News

15 Mike Brown, 14 Tom Williams, 13 Matt Hopper, 12 Jordan Turner-Hall, 11 Sam Smith, 10 Ben Botica, 9 Danny Care, 8 Nick Easter, 7 Chris Robshaw, 6 Maurie Fa'asavalu, 5 George Robson, 4 Ollie Kohn, 3 James Johnston, 2 Rob Buchanan, 1 Joe Marler.

Replacements: 16 Dave Ward, 17 Mark Lambert, 18 Will Collier, 19 Charlie Matthews, 20 Tom Guest, 21 Karl Dickson, 22 Rory Clegg, 23 Seb Stegmann.]

Nick Evans is out for the next few weeks with an ankle injury, but new boy Ben Botica looked an able replacement with a clinical kicking boot and good vision running the show. You can bet that he'll get a tougher test of his credentials on Sat if he is selected by Connor.

Other then the change at 10 the backs should remain the same. Tom Williams seemed alright after his hip injury and George Lowe will still be out after his ankle surgery, leaving Mat Hopper at 13. EDIT Monye is out with an ankle injury so young dangerman Sam Smith comes in at 11

The pack should be unchanged from the Biarritz game, all came through unscathed and especially in the second half put in strong performances. Perhaps the only change we could see will be Tom Guest coming in for Mo Fa'Asavalu on a rotation policy.

thebluesmancometh wrote:And they were offered short term contracts to get gametime, as soon as they developed they went to the other provinces.

Carr was there for 3 years, same as cronin and keatley. How is that short term?

Bluesman they weren't offered short term contracts, players who have left have been there for two, three years minimum. Thats a standard contract length in professional sport.

Often feel posters from outside Ireland don't understand what it means to represent your province. I've no doubt for some players its bigger than representing Ireland.

You talk about Carr, Cronin, Keatley, Hagan- those lads weren't from Connacht, and they weren't developed in Connacht. They were never part of the Connacht Academy they were all developed by Leinster apart from Cronin who came through the Munster Academy. They moved there for their careers and everybody knew it including Connacht- players who move to Connacht have from the other provinces been dreaming of representing Ulster/Munster/Leinster since they were children. Its something they've dreamt and targeted all their lives. If Munster or Leinster come back in with a contract offer once they're doing well for Connacht, they're going to bite their hand off. They aren't representing their area in Connacht, it's just a job. Why stay in a losing team if it isn't your team?

The way Connacht will be successful is by getting more people playing the game in Connacht- more kids growing up in Connacht with the dream of making it for Connacht. If you look at the like of John Muldoon, Johnny O'Connor, Gavin Duffy, Eric Elwood as a coach- they would never go to another province above Connacht for success. Other provinces have tried to sign these guys and been knocked back because they want to stay and represent their team.

I remember when Ulster were really poor and Tommy Bowe left. That same season Rory Best, Paddy Wallace and Stephen Ferris were all out of contract too. They all had offers from more successful teams, they had offers from French clubs. Ulster were a disaster, 9th out of 10 and we just barely finished ahead of Connacht. But they stayed. Why? Because it means something for them to pull on an Ulster jersey. It's more than a job for those men, it's a dream. And they wanted to make Ulster successful. Thats why we are where we are now. Because of guys willing to work so hard for that dream.

Connacht will be successful when they have an Academy full of homegrown players who are willing to make sacrifices to make Connacht succeed because it's their dream to play for Connacht and always has been. Imports will only take you so far in doing that. And Ian Keatley was as much an import to Connacht as Dan Parks. Get that through your head!

Hopper doesn't look like the same player as last season - the elusive running has gone. Williams strugged too. I think Quins will need a full squad at the knock out stages if they have aspirations of a semi spot.

Good points Notch and I think we're seeing that at Connacht now.

The home grown players are coming through and the guys they are bringing in are buying into the dream as opposed to coming there as a stepping stone.

The crucial thing for Connacht though is that they have better players than before and even from last season they have a bit more depth.

They just need to build the winning habit and get used to getting the narrow wins rather than loses. In truth they aren't far off where Ulster were a few seasons ago, on the field at least.

After living in Clare for a few years then Galway I know all about the local pride in your area, If I see one more banner in my life starting with 'up' it'll be too soon!!!

RE Keatley, Carr etc, of course they were never going to stay with Connacht, Connacht was used to develop these players, who were all looking to go home at some point (oh and by short term I meant temp, my bad)

I agree Connacht needs to build an infrastructure to produce, and progress but stunting the funding for it to do so isn't going to help. It's like the kid in class who can't read sit alone and colour books to catch up!!!

I know the IRFU are using Connacht in this way, and the odd season in the HC (when Leinster/Munster are succesfull) is as good as it'll get for them. Acknowledging that doesn't mean I have to like it.

The fact that people from outside of Galway beleive Connacht isn't a development team smacks of denial or ignorance, and there is a core(allbeit small) of fans, coaches, players and volunteers who IMHO deserve better in a level playing feild.

You'll have to forgive my bias view, developed a large soft spot for Galway wet and windy on a dark cold friday night!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:After living in Clare for a few years then Galway I know all about the local pride in your area, If I see one more banner in my life starting with 'up' it'll be too soon!!!

RE Keatley, Carr etc, of course they were never going to stay with Connacht, Connacht was used to develop these players, who were all looking to go home at some point (oh and by short term I meant temp, my bad)

I agree Connacht needs to build an infrastructure to produce, and progress but stunting the funding for it to do so isn't going to help. It's like the kid in class who can't read sit alone and colour books to catch up!!!

I know the IRFU are using Connacht in this way, and the odd season in the HC (when Leinster/Munster are succesfull) is as good as it'll get for them. Acknowledging that doesn't mean I have to like it.

The fact that people from outside of Galway beleive Connacht isn't a development team smacks of denial or ignorance, and there is a core(allbeit small) of fans, coaches, players and volunteers who IMHO deserve better in a level playing feild.

You'll have to forgive my bias view, developed a large soft spot for Galway wet and windy on a dark cold friday night!!!

I would encourage you to watch the documentary called "wests awake" which was recently shown on TG4. If you still think they are a dvelopment team after watching that, then nothing will convince you otherwise.

Seen it, great watch IMO.

But the guys involved are clearly not going to be wandering around considering themselves as a development team, it would go under in weeks.

From the guys I had met and spoken to trying to do a professional job on an amateur budget/infrastructure they were clearly passionate and wanted to do their best.

But what the people at the club are trying to be and what the club is are 2 different things.

If Connacht play well and if a couple of Irish sides yet again slide into the quarters (very tough battle that will be) then we can all criticise the IRFU as much as we like on the International front - but as controllers of Provincial rugby they'll be above criticism.

Ulster is driving forward, Munster is looking for it's newish identity and still playing respectable stuff as they learn, Leinster are having their annus horribilis and are still 2 games from 2... and Connacht have the raw materials that could really make big sides hurt.

Nothing is perfect - but if a few Irish sides show their faces again in the quarters of the HEC (at least) then that's a pretty decent showing in what isn't close to being a vintage form year overall (Ulster excluded!)

And bluesman...you've been in the West and you've understandably developed a soft spot for the place...but you'll need to be a whole lot longer there to exceed the soft spot many of us have for it. Both sides of my family have links back to there, my blood is there, I've stayed there, I holiday there from time to time and I want four strong Irish provinces. I don't want three, I don't want two - I want four powerful sides. That's the objective.

It has to be the objective in purely business terms too as the more successful the side is the less burden they are on the funding network and the more they actually contribute to it. But on a purely emotional front, I want Connacht up there with the other three but it has to be managed. You have to manage their progress so that you don't stall the progress of the others. Holding back the potential of the others to improve the 'equality' of the fourth is not a sensible route in my opinion. The development has to be managed and I think it is being.

IRFU can't really afford a development side constantly draining funds...they actually need Connacht to be more self-perpetuating. They need it to succeed on the results table as much as it does on the teaching and training side of things.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Seen it, great watch IMO.

But the guys involved are clearly not going to be wandering around considering themselves as a development team, it would go under in weeks.

From the guys I had met and spoken to trying to do a professional job on an amateur budget/infrastructure they were clearly passionate and wanted to do their best.

But what the people at the club are trying to be and what the club is are 2 different things.

i would agree that in the past that connacht was a development team. but things have now changed. they have their own academy and even have an "A" team competing in the B&I cup.

The answer is investment in the grassroots of rugby in Connacht, but throwing money at a problem isn't always the answer. Fortunately I do believe that Connacht are now doing the right things, producing good homegrown players, spreading the game around the province.

Realistically it will take them a long time to catch up with any of the other three provinces. They have less rugby playing schools, less rugby clubs, less registered players, the lowest attendances (but the most rapidly expanding fan base) and- this is where they are being stitched up by the IRFU- the smallest budget.

But now they are doing the right things and thats a start. For years they were run amateurishly. The Heineken Cup has been the carrot they need to generate interest and they are now capitalizing on that interest. Whether it can be sustained if they drop out of the competition will be the real litmus test.

This 'development province' tag- it's a complete red herring. Players who don't get their contracts renewed and don't get offered an Academy contract can go to England for three years to try and catch the eye of their home province or they can go to Connacht, I know which is better for Connacht.

They need to grown the game in Connacht to the point where they are not relying on imports, whether overseas or from outside the province.

Great post fly

Connacht were treated poorly by the IRFU, for too long. About 2 years ago around this time when the IRFU set up a committee of some top business people who were tasked with developing Connacht. That was the main catalyst for the change in Connachts fortune.

Theres been other things happening too in Connacht. They're bringing their own players through and some of those players look very good. The other provinces have stronger squads and that means better players on the fringes of those squads who want to play rugby. McSharry is a good example. He couldn't break into the Leinster team and now people are talking about him breaking into the Ireland squad.

As for being called a development porvince, they never were and are not now. If they were a development province more players would have been loaned out to them over the years. Eric Elwood has stated many times that they're not interested in signing players on loan. Also, there are players in Connacht who the other provinces want to sign but cannot sign.

DaveM wrote:Hopper doesn't look like the same player as last season - the elusive running has gone. Williams strugged too. I think Quins will need a full squad at the knock out stages if they have aspirations of a semi spot.

Got to disagree completely with you, there. Hopper looks exactly the same player as last season - and that's the problem. He's less of an unknown quantity and defences have worked out his running lines. As a result he's less effective running it himself, and his decision-making about when to pass still needs to be better. Defensively, he looked much better against Biarritz but was back into bad habits today. Their try and a couple of other breaks came from him being out of position.

Williams, on the other hand, looked excellent to me. He didn't get much chance to run with the ball today but his positional play today was excellent. I lost count of how often he popped up just where Quins needed a player.

There are certain players that Quins will need fully fit if they want to make the knockout stages - I'd count Lowe as one of them, probably Marler, JJ and Robshaw too. But the strength in depth is getting there. They beat Toulouse away last year playing Casson and Hopper in the centres.

The problem is that Lowe wasn't on top form either when he was fit, i'd say both our 13's are very good solid players who are more then capable in the Prem or Europe group stages, but i'm not so sure if either have the goods to trouble the very best defences.

Hopper's game awareness seemed to completely vanish in this match, he just looked out of place all game. Partially this could be second season yips but also not helped by JTH being a little off form as well today, he was only looking to rumble up field and nothing else.

Hopper outside a Clegg/Botica or Botica/Casson combo could find he has a bit more space and time with their passing games.

I still think we need to switch Robshaw to 6 on the 50 minute mark and have Wallace on the bench to come on. Our breakdown work this season has been pretty poor and Wallace could really help there, he also links and runs well.

Plenty to ponder.

Well done Connacht too for a top performance.

Think its very insulting to call Connacht a Development team these days.

I think the IRFU fund them better than the WRU do the regions, does that make the regions sub-development teams?

Most of Leinster, Munster and Ulsters players come through thier acamadies, If Connacht recieved equal funding they wouldn't have the talent coming through to match these 3.

Connacht recieve less funding thats true, but they also don't have the same rules applied they are allowed more NIQ players and aren't going to be limited in positions etc.

The IRFU has but a sensible plan in place, they recieve funding to increase first team at present and the acamady and grass roots rugby in Connacht, Once certain targets are reached, (attendance, acamady, structure) it will trigger increased funding, but NIQ players will be reduced, then repeat to next step, and again, untill they are on an equal level with the other 3.

Better to build they up over time, than to give them an equal sahre limit their NIQ's the same, and hope than the acamacy starts producing players equal to the other 3, and crowds match other 3.

Elwood has been crucial in dragging the IRFU and the province to where it is now. He has done so much that he is literally burning out. Will there be a new role for him at the province once his time as coach is up? My biggest fear for them is how can they get someone of similar calibre in to drive them on. That is my fear. Who replaces him? Can he really be replaced?

Elwood has done a great job, but he also can't take all the credit.

He is passionate about Connacht and improved there position.

However shortly after taking the job the IRFU report was completed (untill this was done they were only allowed to offer one year contracts, and hence lost Cronin, Carr, Keatley as they couldn't give them longer deals or time them in longer). However the report suggested more funding, improved structure, better acamady grassroots, ways to increase attandance, number of NIQ players, bigger squad budget, and trying to improve moves of players from th eother Provinces to Connacht.

Elwood no doubt pushed to make sure it was impliminted, but I think another coach may have got the same backing.

I think his successer will get even more backing as the plan outlines (I believe) its just important that the new coach keeps pushing the IRFU, to hold up its side of this.

In that regard EOS may be the man, as he already has plenty of contacts within the IRFU (hopefully still on good terms), and if he's ambitious and wants to make a name for himself again, it will involve pushing Connacht on, and hence pushing the IRFU to help.

Any coach that just wants to get along, and isn't willing to fall out with people trying to get more support, would be a bad choice. Need someone in Elwoods mold that is willing to put a few noses out of joint to get what is best for him and Connacht. If EOS has the fight in him for this then he's the man, if just there as a IRFU yes man, then its bad news for Connacht.

EOS? Is he really a runner in this?

Im not sure out EOS, he is very conservative with his team slections which you cant be with connacht because they have all these young players coming through.

Well done to Harlequins for beating the most overrated side in Europe.

That was last seasons AP final wasn't it?

But I have heard from a number of places that when EOS had the Ireland job, he only every down in the Sportsground to watch Connacht play a game that didn't have another Irish province in it once! Kidney, for all of his current detractors, has managed to show the face far more times from what I have heard. I thought it sounded like there is more than a little bit of resentment there?

beshocked wrote:Well done to Harlequins for beating the most overrated side in Europe.

Sad attempt! lol

rodders wrote:That was last seasons AP final wasn't it?

Not sure anyone rates us any more - not after you stuffed us any way.

Don't worry LT Barnes still rates you guys maaaaaaassively....

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:That was last seasons AP final wasn't it?

Not sure anyone rates us any more - not after you stuffed us any way.

Sorry LT only messing buddy...the Ospreys rate you anyways!..... ....

Think Connacht are better than when EOS was in the Ireland job, if he had the Ireland job he may have been thier as much as DK, and if DK was Ireland boss back them he may only have watched them as much as EOS.

What I'm saying is thier performances and players have desevered to be viewed more by the Ireland manager, and it wasn't nessarly EoS snubbing them.

I don't know if EOS is the best man for the job but he was/is a very good coach, He was an IRFU development officer, and by the look of it did coach Connacht before.

I was speaking to a guy not so long ago who played for Connacht under EOS and George Hook and he reckoned they were brillant coaches - way ahead of their time, at that time.

Mind you once upon a time the dinosaurs were top of the food chain too.