England Inside Centre

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Inside Centre is a huge issue for most English members of 606 at the moment. Just who should be in England's starting centre partnership?

The majority of people argue that Tuilagi must start, most state at 13. Some claim he could play a Nonuesque role at 12, which could help provide space for a more cutting edge 13 such as Joseph or Lowe. Some have even put forward the argument of using his strike running and physicality from the wing, however his positioning and defence may be exploited in defence.

At inside centre three players are already in the EPS; Barritt, Turner-Hall and Allen. Don't get me wrong, all three players are integral for their clubs. Barritt is the defensive linchpin for Saracens, Turner-Hall is the go to man in Quins attack and Allen is claimed to be the gel that glues Leicester's midfield together. The only major problem for me is that all three players are extremely solid, yet mostly unspectacular. Barritt is the best defensively, Turner-Hall is the best ball carrier and Allen is the best all rounder, but none of them really provide the x-factor for me.

Twelvetrees is another player who many posters recognise as having a shed load of potential. I must admit that with more game time for Gloucester he is starting to impress. His passing can be exquisite, his tackling can be aggressive, his kicking can be a potent weapon. However, his decision making, positioning and consistency aren't completely up to scratch, I feel he needs a bit more experience at Gloucester before his best attributes can be used on the international stage. Burrell, Banahan and Geraghty are all options that may be considered as well, Burrell is extremely physical and I'm sure with more game time and exposure in the Saints environment will improve his game. Banahan is unfortunately injured at the moment, but is an extremely important player for Bath. Poor Geraghty doesn't seem to be getting much of a look in for Irish at the moment, a player who had so much promise has really gone off the radar.

In my opinion, there is one solution to the inside centre conundrum. Despite not being included in the EPS or the Saxons squad for a substantial period of time, Dom Waldouck has really impressed me since joining Saints from Wasps. He has been on the cusp of many England squads over the past few years and despite having only just turned 25, he has been around for a very long time. Injury has blighted his career, but he has looked extremely consistent, influential and sharp this season for Saints. His distribution is as good as most fly halves, his step, speed and vision have created many opportunities for the Saints outside backs, whilst his never say die attitude in defence has been highly impressive, he made 19 tackles and missed none, for Saints against Glasgow in the Heineken Cup at the weekend. He also has the ability to play both centre positions, which would help England bring the best out of Tuilagi.

This for me would leave a selection conundrum of who to pick on the left wing. You could go with a specialist winger such as Monye, Sharples or Wade. Or you could play Joseph on the wing, and he could interchange with Tuilagi in attack and defence, which would keep the opposition guessing. Joseph has experience of playing on the wing, whilst his running game would be more suited to open spaces.

My backline for England vs Fiji would look like this...

09. Care
10. Flood
11. Monye
12. Waldouck
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

21. Youngs
22. Burns
23. Joseph

I also feel Cipriani's form for Sale over the next few weeks should be closely monitored, as I feel he could really bring an x-factor to the England back line. However, if his form does not warrant selection, then he should not be considered.

I think the idea that 36 wasn't a good defender is one of those myths that this forum can be so fond of creating.

Absolutely. 36 is a brilliant defender, and has been since his days at Bedford. He's a big lad, and has put some great hits in this season so far, as well as consistently defending his channel.

36 has had a great impact at Glaws so far this season. Tall strong lad, good carrier & tackler and has also done some p/t FH duty with some aplomb. This is club level of course, but it would be intersting to seem him get a shout at international level..after a while.

gregortree wrote:36 has had a great impact at Glaws so far this season. Tall strong lad, good carrier & tackler and has also done some p/t FH duty with some aplomb. This is club level of course, but it would be intersting to seem him get a shout at international level..after a while.

Yes quite right wait until he he is at least 28 and has suffered a cataglouge of pace detroying injuries then pick him for England.

That is how we normally roll.....

beshocked wrote:Barritt is still the man in possession IMO.

Anyone who watched Edinburgh vs Saracens will know what Barritt can do.

There is this perception that he's just a one dimensional defensive centre but there's more to his game than that.

I watched the Saracens Edinburgh game last night off this recommendation.

He played excellently, and you're right, there's a lot more to his game than we've seen on the international stage so far.

His bosh on Denton from a standing start in the first half was a highlight. He's certainly the man in possession of the shirt.

The thing about Barritt is when is he going to show some of these other skills in an England shirt? I think he's a good player but with him and Tuilagi in the past we seem to have had 2 centres who prefer to bosh than pass.
Come on Brad, start firing out some passes!

I know Bathman, it's frustrating. But it's important to recognise that Barritt was playing so well when Hodgson was at 10- a guy who knows how to engage his players in attack. When playing for England, Barritt's been playing with Farrell at either 10 or 13, and with a pack struggling to gain parity and provide quick ball. With someone like Flood at 10, I think we could see more of Barritt's attacking prowess.

bluestonevedder wrote:I know Bathman, it's frustrating. But it's important to recognise that Barritt was playing so well when Hodgson was at 10- a guy who knows how to engage his players in attack. When playing for England, Barritt's been playing with Farrell at either 10 or 13, and with a pack struggling to gain parity and provide quick ball. With someone like Flood at 10, I think we could see more of Barritt's attacking prowess.

Ive been saying this repeatedly for some time now.

Lets see how he goes with a competent 10 who has a bit of creativty and a pack giving a bit of forward momentum.

If he still doesnt look the part...he gets moved on. Its very simple...but very harsh to judge him on his games so far where he has been defensive leader...with little opportunity to actually show what he can do.

But i would be having a look at twelvetrees aswell.....as a challenger with considerable skills...and just as big a defence.

Got to have Twelvetrees in the EPS so he can train with the Eng team. Hopefully then he can pinch the no23 shirt.

I wouldn't mind seeing Barritt shift to 13 to allow Billy on at the 60 minute mark, move Tuilagi to a wing maybe.

Yeh, I know you have GF, and I agree with you every time. Barritt's got a lot to offer, and I just think SL and Co. are still working out the best way to use him.

Agree regarding Twelvetrees. He could make the bench as centre or fly half cover, although if he were the replacement fly half, his performance last night doesn't fill me with confidence because his goal kicking was quite stray!

Any Leicester supporters know whether Matthew Tait is showing any signs of getting back to his best? Or even just what position he's playing in?

He's been on the scene so long, it's easy to forget he's younger than Flood, Delon Armitage, Mike Brown & Foden, and only a few months older than Barritt, Allen, Geraghty & Banahan.

Fan - hadn't thought about his comparative age, but good point.
England management really trgically screwed him up young on the international front.
Be interesting to get an update from Leics watchers.

Mathew Tait's made a few appearances recently for Tigers' A team side, and looks to be back to full health. Cockerhill's cautiously getting him back up to full game time, and letting him re-adjust to the physicality of the game, since he's had so long out.

He made his first appearance at fullback against Worcester Cavaliers on 1st October, and capped it with a try, as well as setting up others. he was apparently well received by the crowd- his timely return could be a blessing since Murphy's out!

Game report here: http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/15025.php

Apologies for the source, but here's also an interesting piece on his return:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2213022/Mathew-Taits-return-like-new-player-Leicester-World-Rugby.html

Blue, thanks, I'll forgive you the source, which I do not normally read, but the whole article is pretty good.

gregortree wrote:Blue, thanks, I'll forgive you the source, which I do not normally read, but the whole article is pretty good.

Many thanks gregortree. It is shameful that the website has a page in my internet history, although thankfully there's not much room for political subliminals in the sports news!

Blimey I didn't realise Tait was so young! He has to be one of our most capped players...

Yet along the way he has won 38 caps and despite the rough treatment, crises of confidence and injuries, he has caught the eye.

New Zealand’s acclaimed Sevens coach, Gordon Tietjens, saw Tait running amok during the 2006 Commonwealth Games and pronounced that had he been a Kiwi, he would have played 50 Tests for the All Blacks by then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTtTppu4kI8 Nice!

In the 2007 World Cup final, which England lost to South Africa, it was Tait’s scorching break which led to Mark Cueto’s famous, ruled-out ‘try’. In that instant, he showed a glimpse of his class as a high-octane strike runner.

These days, so much emphasis is on bulk and off-loading prowess, yet if Tait can hit his stride again, he is too good for England to ignore.

While the game is dominated by the crash-bash-release routine, there still must be scope for guile and nimble, elusive qualities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OVuDMYSJ7M What a crazy moment!

Will be really good when we say Tait back playing for Tigers, either on the wing, 15 or 13 doesn't matter just get him out there!

Completely agree Yappy

He's such a talent, and was so poorly treated by AR

I recall Tait saying that, after the 2007 World Cup, he felt he had finally done enough to be central to England's future plans, and perhaps became too complacent as a consequence.

He got back into the side in time to make a run for last year's World Cup but Johnson didn't like what he saw when Tait toured in Australia and New Zealand during 2010. I seem to remember his defence was a bit ropey. He picked up an injury, which made him unavailable anyway, but looked to have already slipped out of the running.

Since Johnson' departure, Tait has been injured, so hasn't had a chance to feature in Lancaster's plans. Farrell and Catt both played with him in that 2007 World Cup squad so it would be interesting to know what they make of him.

Until he gets a good run of first team rugby again at Leicester, though, he's not going to come into the frame again as quickly as someone like Tom Wood. It's a shame he looks like getting the full back spot at Tigers for now, since we already look well-served in that position.

I always think of him when people say someone like Manu Tuilagi is set for a long England career. Tait's the prime example of how showing promise at an early age is no guarantee of a run if the team isn't getting the results.

Cipriani's form is not the issue it is the massive flaws in his basic skills that need to be addressed

Rugby Fan wrote:I recall Tait saying that, after the 2007 World Cup, he felt he had finally done enough to be central to England's future plans, and perhaps became too complacent as a consequence.

He got back into the side in time to make a run for last year's World Cup but Johnson didn't like what he saw when Tait toured in Australia and New Zealand during 2010. I seem to remember his defence was a bit ropey. He picked up an injury, which made him unavailable anyway, but looked to have already slipped out of the running.

Since Johnson' departure, Tait has been injured, so hasn't had a chance to feature in Lancaster's plans. Farrell and Catt both played with him in that 2007 World Cup squad so it would be interesting to know what they make of him.

Until he gets a good run of first team rugby again at Leicester, though, he's not going to come into the frame again as quickly as someone like Tom Wood. It's a shame he looks like getting the full back spot at Tigers for now, since we already look well-served in that position.

I always think of him when people say someone like Manu Tuilagi is set for a long England career. Tait's the prime example of how showing promise at an early age is no guarantee of a run if the team isn't getting the results.

Very good point.

I think if he can get himself first choice at Tigers then he'll be in prime position. He is very experienced and versatile, but has his time gone? Bit like Haskell in that respect.

I suppose that's the problem with just so many players to pick from in England, as a player you snooze you lose!!

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing Barritt shift to 13 to allow Billy on at the 60 minute mark, move Tuilagi to a wing maybe.

No, no, no, no, no, no. Barritt cannot play 13, you simply cannot have a 13 without pace. Even Farrell is definitely quicker than him. Tuilagi on the wing is worth a look at some point though.

On Tait if I remember correctly he had a shocker for the midweek team in NZ in 2010 and at that point I didn't want him anywhere near the England side ever again. Since then he's been injured and I think in every position he could play we have better options. He should be happy with just having a decent club career now - hopefully he can.

For Fiji:

9.Care
10.Burns
11.Sharples
12.Twelvetrees
13.Manu
14.Ashton
15.Goode

Bench: 21. Dickson, 22. Flood, 23. Joseph

For the following 3 games.

9.Care
10.Flood
11.Joseph
12.Barritt
13.Manu
14.Ashton
15.Goode

Bench: 21. Dickson, 22. Burns, 23. Brown.

Youngs needs to rediscover his form and fitness at Tigers. Goode looked extremely classy at FB in SA so should be a fixture there. Burns and Twelvetrees have been showing form so are worth a go.

Whilst I remain to be convinced about Barritt it's difficult to disagree with too much of that. I'd start Brown against Fiji though - he deserves a start.

Of course the risk is that Brown or Twelvetrees or Burns etc play out of their skin in the FiJi game, but I guess that is a nice problem to have.

I hope people arent seriously considering Tait.

An immense talent...but a career destroyed by Andy robinson and injuries.

He needs a season playing regular games for the tiger before even thinking about him.

We also have players like Joseph and Lowe who are pushing for the 13 spot.

Well seriously considering his potential.. again... a v gifted player. But yes, agreed, needs a lot of club time to get back from his long layoff..
See if that natural potential can be rebuilt into the finished article he could be. Still relatively young, but I fear he may get left behind on the England front.

I hope Tait gets seriously considered if he starts playing seriously well again.

DaveM jogged my memory and he really did have a poor match against New Zealand Maori in 2010. That was a strange game after the high of a victory over Australia.

We led 13-0 and then shipped 17 unanswered points. We replied with 15 unanswered points of our own and took an 11 point lead into half time. England then didn't score again while conceding 18 points to go down 35-28.

Despite having a healthy lead, and momentum, on two occasions, England got carried away with their early tries and never controlled the game. Tait's defence was at fault for at least one of the Maori tries and I think he may have tried a mad pass or two which handed the initiative back.

It was his only real stinker of a game in an England shirt but very bad career timing. England beat Australia twice with Tindall and Hape at centre which confirmed Johnson in his view that solidity was the better option in midfield.

If Tait can get back to even his 2010 Six Nations performance level, then he'll have a chance for a recall because he's fast and skillful. He never lost form dramatically like Geraghty or, in the past, Balshaw. The biggest issue is whether the long injury lay-off has slowed him down, or made him more prone to breaking down. If there's a hint of either, then the door will be shut.

I've been a fan of Tait in the past, but if the other options in the England squad for the positions he can play are fit and in form, I think he's a player or two down the order. He'd be a decent bench selection though, covering centre, wing & FB.

Given how brilliant he was in 7's I have wondered if he should go back to that

2 tries in 2 A league games for Tait from full back. I think he will be an excellent utility back three option at Tigers and the same for England. Only Ashton has nailed a space in the England back three so far.

I'll be amazed if he ever appears for England again.

I'd love to see Tait playing regularly and showing some form, he's young so a future Test recall isn't impossible. I do think highly unlikely though given the options at FB.

A lot of people criticised him for his front on defence at 13, and they had a point, i never thought 13 was a great fit for him but it wasn't just defence. One aspect no-one seemed to mention was that, although his top-speed pace is incredible, his acceleration was never top draw. Compare his speed off the mark against someone like Joseph and he looks poor. Add that to the fact he didn't have a great step, he just used his immense pace to go around people on the outside.

I think wing, and even more so FB suit his skills much better. He can enter a line at full pace rather than try and use footwork and trickery and he has a big boot on him. I hope it works out cause I loved him at the Falcons.

timhen wrote:I think the idea that 36 wasn't a good defender is one of those myths that this forum can be so fond of creating.

Completely correct. I think it's more our natural fear of spark players looking for excuses.

In the 'A' games does Tait look like he still has his pace...or has it dropped a little?

I think the idea that 36 wasn't a good defender is one of those myths that this forum can be so fond of creating

His tackling has always been good but his positioning in defence and inability to organise a defence were issues when he rejoined Tigers. He fixed the positioning issue but he never organised a defence particularly well.

I remember that mid week game and while he didnt have his best game he wasnt entirely at fault for the Maori tries. Strettle gifted Gear one by flying out to hit him, got bounced off and left a huge hole for him to run through. Tait managed to get back to him but Gear pushed him off and went in at the corner. Hardly his fault really.

I agree that if he got back and playing well for Tigers he would make an excellent utility back for England. He has a real footballing brain about him and knows when and how to give the pass and went to run etc. Im not sure who thinks his acceleration isnt good, it is, i have seen him fly out of the line to make man and ball tackles before and the attacker hasnt had a chance because of how fast Tait got out to him.

Great player who will hopefully get another chance.

On Tait I really hope to see him back playing regularly at Tigers as I think he could be a great fit for the club at the moment! If he's playing well at Tigers in the back three it could put him in prime position for England much quicker than many seem to think.

I could never understand a lot of the hostility toward him from England fans. Massively talented player and plays a free flowing fast game just like the one we've been screaming for.

On IC, I've been saying it for a while now that I want to see Barritt,Allen and Twelvetrees as the three in the squad.

Barritt is the man in possession and has really impressed me so far this season after I'd been skeptical for a while. A rare moment when I'm glad to be proved wrong by many on these boards.

Allen has improved massively since coming to Tigers and is the best all round 12 in the AP at the moment (and last season) IMO. His attacking play and distribution is good and his defensive play has improved out of sight.

36 is one of the most talented player's we've got and in a position England have struggled with since Greenwood retired. His distribution is great (better than any of our current FH options!), he's a big strong guy with ball in hand and and in defense. Also his kicking from hand is a huge weapon. That's one of the things I like best about 36 - his kicking from hand would allow us to use Burn's attacking play from 10 and take some pressure of with tactical kicking.

Personally I'd like to see this backline from current choices;

9.Care
10.Flood

11.May
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Brown

20.Youngs
21.Burns
22.Joseph

On Johnny May at 11 I know it's unlikely but he's just a player who impresses every time I see him play. He's strong under the highball and in defense from playing full-back and also has great skills and pace.

belovedfrosties wrote:I remember that mid week game and while he didnt have his best game he wasnt entirely at fault for the Maori tries. Strettle gifted Gear one by flying out to hit him, got bounced off and left a huge hole for him to run through. Tait managed to get back to him but Gear pushed him off and went in at the corner. Hardly his fault really.

No, it was his fault, he got pushed off. That was a horrific performance.

In the meantime he's been unlucky with injuries, but this is man who's achieved little in his career, and I think his popularity is to a significant degree because he offered hope at a very dark time for Engliush rugby. Unfortunately it just hasn't worked out and now we have huge talents like May and Eastmond who could cover the utility back role far more effectively. Time to move on and let Tait concentrate on having a reasonable club career.

DaveM wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:I remember that mid week game and while he didnt have his best game he wasnt entirely at fault for the Maori tries. Strettle gifted Gear one by flying out to hit him, got bounced off and left a huge hole for him to run through. Tait managed to get back to him but Gear pushed him off and went in at the corner. Hardly his fault really.

No, it was his fault, he got pushed off. That was a horrific performance.

In the meantime he's been unlucky with injuries, but this is man who's achieved little in his career, and I think his popularity is to a significant degree because he offered hope at a very dark time for Engliush rugby. Unfortunately it just hasn't worked out and now we have huge talents like May and Eastmond who could cover the utility back role far more effectively. Time to move on and let Tait concentrate on having a reasonable club career.

No other 13 at the time would have even got back to attempt a tackle, Tait was stretching out to get hands on him and Gear turned and pushed him back to give him time to get in at the corner. I dread to think how many players Gear has brushed aside in his career, many players better than Tait and im sure there will be more, the guy is an absolute beast.

About the 12 jersey, I'd have Barritt, 36 and Allen in the EPS.

Barritt because i think hes the most solid and dependable and as many have said, none of us have seen what he can do in an England shirt with good ball from an attacking flyhalf, i also think he balances out the sometimes wayward Tuilagi.

36 has impressed me a lot this season, excellent in defence, can crash it up when required and has great hands. Needs to work on his consistency a bit, but has time. Also he has a cannon of a boot on him, i watched him play for the Saxons against italy where he punted it from our 22 to theirs, he also has enough pace to be a threat himself on the gainline. He also does excellent work at the breakdown, think i heard that he has made more turnovers at the ruck than any other Gloucester player has.

Allen really caught my eye against ospreys, whilst he didnt do anything spectacular he was always there when the ball got a bit sloppy. There were a number of times i saw a move look like it was about to break down because of a bad pass, only for it to be recovered and passed on perfectly by Allen to carry an attack on. He seemed to work as the grease in the tigers back play and i think he provides a similar role to Barritt, of getting on with things and letting the flair players show off their stuff knowing that they have cover in Allen.

DaveM wrote:I think Eastmond is a good shout - he's an exceptional talent and I think 12 may be where he's best suited. In terms of ability in traffic he is probably without parallel in English rugby, and he's a top quality distributor too. He's slightly on the small side, but punches well above his weight. You'd want Tuilagi outside him though.

In the meantime I think Twelvetrees is closing in on the starting shirt. When he carries the ball he carries an attacking threat that Barritt, Allen and JTH can't match.

I agree east mind looks like he has the distribution skills and running to creat problems