Raw First Tests

I'm on a search mission to find a player who had a poor debut and yet went on to be a class performer if not star of the game.

I have a theory that you can tell if a player will "step up" to international level in first 30 minutes of his first test.

As examples, I'd cite the examples of:

Isaia Toeava. On debut he looked constantly threatening, but bombed a try under the posts in the act of touching down and dropped the ball cold going over in the corner. He was said to be a star player in the making with unparalleled potential. But his handling and decision making during big tests ultimately should have ruled him out of contention well before the hip fracture did.

Richie McCaw. Outrage in the home country that such a rookie could be plucked from obscurity and fielded in place of a legend. Public outcry from said legend. But the guy played a stormer. Was man of the match and went on to become arguably the greatest All Black of all time.

Israel Dagg. Was outrageous in his first game. Played with his trade mark wide eyed bemusement against Ireland, he never looked over-awed. We only had to wait until his second outing for some world class brilliance as he defied the impregnable Springbok defence single handedly to dance through four of the worlds most fearsome defenders to score his debut try. He ultimately ousted the legendary Mils Muliaina on pure X-factor and game breaking ability during the biggest world cup stakes in NZ's history.

Colin Slade. Thrown in at the deep end. The guy looked nervous and uncomfortable as NZ were put away by South Africa. NZ persisted with him in the absence of DC in the world cup. He looked petrified from the moment he stepped out of the changing sheds. As one commentator put it "had to wait 20 minutes to pick up the injury he was hoping would rule him out of the rest of the tournament". Has now disappeared without trace.

Rene Ranger: Lit up Super Rugby and made his non-selection unthinkable. As an All Black he was awful on debut. He now struggles at club level.

Lelia Masaga: Seemed to have an Israel Dagg like X-factor, picked up the grand knick-name "The Flash" and duly got his chance. His first touch of the ball as an All Black against Italy, his instinct was to run from deep with no support. He was turned over in a flash and put the ABs under early pressure. He continued with a raft of poor decisions and handling errors and now warms the bench for the chiefs.

Matthew Tait: Yep. That Henson game. Wow. Career ender.

Danny Ciprinai: The next Wilkinson, so we were told. Only this one came with a knack to concede charge-down tries and a distinct difference in defensive prowess. Went truely global aferwards. In a bad way, become Super Rugby's worst ever defender. Ousting Quade Cooper, no less.

Yep. I just can't think of a guy who had a disspointing first outing and recovered.

Adam Jones is probably one.

A head scratcher this one. Well done AWOP

AWOP – I’d argue Slade’s debut was pretty impressive and it wasn’t against SA at all....he came off the bench for Cruden against Australia in 2010 when we were down (it was actually Cruden’s first start in Black) with 20 mins left and was integral in the comeback which saw us win.

Lomu had a tough debut in 94, outplayed by Ntamack. And speaking of that test series, Simon Mannix played his one and only test v France. He played so badly he was never called upon by NZ again.

Shane Wiliams endured a Raw few years before he was accepted, seemed to do ok in the end

I like to think Williams was reborn when moved to the wing though, V NZ then England.

That mustve been a stroke of genius

Neil back?

Didn't Charlie Hodgson score a record 45 odd points on debut? Against someone crap like Romania, but still

Steady on! Surely you mean "second tier nation" and not "crap"...

anotherworldofpain wrote:
Matthew Tait: Yep. That Henson game. Wow. Career ender.

I do love it when people are this stupid. The fact that he had an all right debut despite being picked far too early. The fact that he has had a decent international career and played very well in a RWC final. The fact that since then he has been in jured because a dumb coach wanted him to gain weight. these are all ignored because he was knocked backwards in a tackle. Some people really need to have an original, intelligent thought.

Danny Ciprinai: The next Wilkinson, so we were told. Only this one came with a knack to concede charge-down tries and a distinct difference in defensive prowess. Went truely global aferwards. In a bad way, become Super Rugby's worst ever defender. Ousting Quade Cooper, no less.

You may have missed the fact he won MotM on his debut, which kind of spoils your point.

Tiger i couldnt even be bothered to make those points...this whole site is becoming a little tedious now...

you and your new zealand a fairly class alright

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tiger i couldnt even be bothered to make those points...this whole site is becoming a little tedious now...

Have to agree, same old faces just the names change. Think it may be time for a little break.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Steady on! Surely you mean "second tier nation" and not "crap"...

One and the same

LondonTiger wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:
Matthew Tait: Yep. That Henson game. Wow. Career ender.

I do love it when people are this stupid. The fact that he had an all right debut despite being picked far too early. The fact that he has had a decent international career and played very well in a RWC final. The fact that since then he has been in jured because a dumb coach wanted him to gain weight. these are all ignored because he was knocked backwards in a tackle. Some people really need to have an original, intelligent thought.

Danny Ciprinai: The next Wilkinson, so we were told. Only this one came with a knack to concede charge-down tries and a distinct difference in defensive prowess. Went truely global aferwards. In a bad way, become Super Rugby's worst ever defender. Ousting Quade Cooper, no less.

You may have missed the fact he won MotM on his debut, which kind of spoils your point.

Ah! By my point exactly. Tait was forever tarred with the debut brush...hence the need for the weight gain.

And it is not me who is stupid...Cipriani had a rank awful debut. His MoM merely a reflection of the inability of the media to notice reality amongst the hype...his subsequent disappearance from contention is merely testament to that.

Got to learn to admit when you make a mistake AWOP. Not doing so really gets people p*ssed of with you. Then they start firing back and so it spirals into a pit of spitefulness leading to divorce. Back up and think of the children.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tiger i couldnt even be bothered to make those points...this whole site is becoming a little tedious now...

i completely agree, it's become the personal forum of a few posters and MODS who have taken all the fun out of it by being paternalistic and not allowing people to have disputes.....i hope autumn perks it up

Since Colin Slade has been out injured and still is hardly a case of never seen again.Had a lot of injuries pro RWC and hardly had a chance before his RWC debut was dumped on bigtime.Toeva was started at a very early age versus Scotland was good in parts.Cursed with the "Futilty"obsession of AB selector sapparently had a long term injury.Which affected his overall game and sadlyhad to give the game away.Cipriani was a "wunderkind"then bombed then became a George Best lifestyle.May yet surprise the doubters MathewTait started young,messed about again the utility bit never being allowed to settle.Richard Kahui outstanding centre but so injury prone he seldom makes a complete season.
Gavin Henson what can you say all the talent but wasted by his overall life style plus a lot of injuries.

Shane Williams through an intercepted offload which resulted in a try on one of his first touches in international rugby.

mowgli wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tiger i couldnt even be bothered to make those points...this whole site is becoming a little tedious now...

i completely agree, it's become the personal forum of a few posters and MODS who have taken all the fun out of it by being paternalistic and not allowing people to have disputes.....i hope autumn perks it up

That's not true. I have seen at least two new posters - greytiger and Avalon. I think there are others too.

How about Sharpe? It took about 50 or 60 tests before he was given any significant credit even at home, then about another 30 until he got much of a mention outside Aust. Now seems pretty well regarded.

I think jonny Wilkinson's first start was in the 76-0 loss to Oz and things didnt go too badly for him? Admittedly he wasnt the only one who had a howler that day!

Excellent point Bathman! His kicking was awful early on wasn't it?

Indulge me here. Was he a very accurate kicker at club level, who just went astray when the pressure of international rugby came on? or was his initial selection for other compelling reasons? and he evolved into a great kicker?

I'm sorry by Wilkinson came onto my radar late because I didn't live here at the time.

nganboy wrote:Got to learn to admit when you make a mistake AWOP. Not doing so really gets people p*ssed of with you. Then they start firing back and so it spirals into a pit of spitefulness leading to divorce. Back up and think of the children.

Nganboy check my posting history, I have no problem admitting when I am outright wrong. But on this occassion I think the reply misses my point. I remember watching that Cipriani game and I remember the hype before it and the general disillusion afterwards. I think they persisted with him a few times but ultimately it was repeatedly the same story.

Wilkinson's debut was on the wing wasn't it?

Yeah his debut was as a sub on the wing, but I'm pretty sure his first start was that game. Or if not one of his first.

Awop, from memory (!) he was one of those players who was touted as the next big thing rather than being the best 10 in the league for his first season and then forcing his way onto the tour.

A lot of promising players never really appeared after that tour, apparently the bars of Sydney were a bit too much of a draw!

Just had a look at the reports of the 76-0 game.

Then England team was:
15 FB Tim Stimpson

14 W Spencer Brown
13 C Matt Perry
12 C Steve Ravenscroft
11 W Austin Healey

10 FH Jonny Wilkinson
9 SH Scott Benton

1 P Graham Rowntree
2 H Richard Cockerill
3 P Phil Vickery

4 L Danny Grewcock
5 L Garath Archer

6 F Ben Sturnham
7 F Richard Pool-Jones
8 N8 Tony Diprose (c)

Replacements
16 C Stuart Potter
17 F Ben Clarke
18 FB Dominic Chapman
19 Alex King
20 Dave Sims
21 Duncan Bell
22 Phil Greening

So the front row was reasonably strong (especially with Greening and Bell on the bench) and the second row wasn't terrible, but other than that it was a real hotch-potch selection. 7 players made debuts in that game, with none of them going on to have distinguished international careers.

It was Wilkinson's second test and first start, after a sub appearance on the wing against Ireland a couple of months earlier.