Cockerill complaining again.

First off I'm a leicester fan, but I am getting really bored that every time we don't perform, especially in Europe Cockerill makes some remark about it not being the players under performing, but the fact there is a salary cap in England.

Maybe its not the players but him who is underperforming

I didn't realise he'd anything other than there's no shame in losing on Tolouse but the players need to engage the top 2 inches more often and stick to the tactics.

Another example of Leicester arrogance...next they'll be sulking so much about RWC 2015 they'll be asking questions in parliament

Ah the Wums are out. Sigh. Should have known better.

Any chance of a quotation?

He said: “This club is in good health and we are doing some good things. There is no disgrace in losing away to Toulouse. You have to take everything into the context of the rugby landscape at the moment, not 10 years ago. That’s the reality. They have a player budget of probably double ours.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/9615939/Richard-Cockerill-says-Leicester-have-been-priced-out-of-Heineken-Cup-success.html

Thanks. It sounds more like a statement of facts than a whinge, but if as you suggest it's a drum he keeps beating, then I can imagine it getting quite tiresome.

To be fair to Cockerill and Leicester they haven't been the only club complaining about the salary cap.

On the other hand I think it's just deflecting from the faults the English clubs have. We can do better with the resources we have.

Quins beat Toulouse away last season and hammered Biarritz this season.

These French clubs aren't unmatchable juggernauts. We just have to have the right gameplan to beat them.

Well, he has a point, with regards to salary caps, it isn't a level playing field in Europe.

The salary cap in England, and to a lesser extent in France, skews the European competition in the favour of those countries where there is no effective salary cap. Personally, I think it's as much to do with fixture congestion as it is with squad strength/depth (if money is no object, why are Benetton-Treviso not topping the RABO Direct 12?).

The English teams not only compete in the Amlin/HEC, but also in the LV Cup and play throughout the Internationals, whereas the
other leagues take a break. Yes, Welsh teams compete in the LV, but since it isn't a must-win for them to have a shot at a coveted HEC place, they tend not to take the competition so seriously, plus they play fewer matches
anyway...

I think that this is a two sided statement.

1. The salary cap is stopping Tigers and Sarries from getting in about 4-5 more players that if they had they would be so much stronger and pushing more in europe.

The other side is that big teams like tigers should not be making excuses about why they lost. Cockerill would never have told the players to just go out and try their best and that was all that was expected. He would have come and told tha players to win and and expected a win (of sorts) because that is how the top teams play.

So he does have a point but it isn't a relevent excuse for tigers as they would consider themselves equal with the top teams in europe and so they should.

What are Tigers fans views of Cockerill?

From what I've picked up soem are beginging to think that a change in manager would see an Improvment in Tigers.

While he hasn't done to much wrong, and a lot right, is the feeling that while hes doing decent job their is somebody that could come in a do a better job?

Is pressure growing on him?

If I was a Tigers fan I know who I would want to get as my next director of rugby.

I wouldn't mind seeing Pat howard back, but that will never happen. Cockerill is a good coach but demonstrably an average DOR. Unfortunately, this needs to be addressed.

However, I think calling for the coaches heads at this stage of the season is a little premature at best. It's easy to say this one needs to go and that one needs to follow but realistically thats just not going to happen for many reasons, one of the main problems being who do you replace them with, what good coaches are actually available?

Tigers are comfortably one of the stronger prem teams but they need something extra to reach the levels of Leinster etc. I think the key is in the balance of the starting XV. Manu is clearly the 'go to' back but it becomes too obvious during the games so having more of a creator at 12 might help with that BUT Allen's defence and workrate is first class and this adds a lot to the team. I still think Manu's future lies at 12 once he adds some subtlety to his game. The back row is another that needs balance, they really didnt fire as a unit on Sunday against Toulouse but dont forget Croft coming back brings a different dynamic at 6 when joined by Salvi and the tank engine is very good. Just need a good fetcher I feel to win more ball.

Its not all doom and gloom, but Cockerill needs to be more flexible, at the moment he's picking his chums rather than players who are on form. A bit less predictability (change the props at 60 minutes every match?) in the substitutions and Tigers will be set fair. Murphy should be back this weekend and his presence should help to steady the ship.

Kingshu wrote:What are Tigers fans views of Cockerill?

From what I've picked up soem are beginging to think that a change in manager would see an Improvment in Tigers.

While he hasn't done to much wrong, and a lot right, is the feeling that while hes doing decent job their is somebody that could come in a do a better job?

Is pressure growing on him?

I don't think he necessarily needs changing - a lot is going right, and whoever you bring in instead would have their own faults. However, I do think something needs to change. Maybe that means bringing in another coach (a defence coach wouldn't go amiss) or maybe Cockers and co. need to be forced to review their coaching system and bring in a few fresh ideas. We've got Sir Clive on the board who in addition to his own coaching experience has been reviewing elite coaching set ups for a few years now for the Olympics, so we really ought to have the skillset within the upper management level to make sure that happens and is effective.

The other big thing we need is to just let the team grow up and get more experienced. Of the squad that started in Toulouse 10 were 26 or under and were in what I would generally consider the development phase of their career. We only really had one veteran (Hamilton) and only 4 players at what I'd consider peak age (Waldrom, Parling, Goneva and Flood) - and lets face it there are some solid internationals there, but none of them are the world class veterans we've had in years gone by. For me that suggests we are just lacking that bit of experience needed to make the right kind of decisions under pressure. As the current crop gets older hopefully that will come good.

In terms of the salary cap I think it is just a statement of fact. We could do better with what we have and I don't think Cockerill has evaded that, but even if we get everything right I think we would still struggle at the top end.

beshocked wrote:If I was a Tigers fan I know who I would want to get as my next director of rugby.

Hey they take enough of our players....keep of our management!!!

beshocked wrote:If I was a Tigers fan I know who I would want to get as my next director of rugby.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm enjoying the job I've got and would like to keep my weekends free!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:If I was a Tigers fan I know who I would want to get as my next director of rugby.

Hey they take enough of our players....keep of our management!!!

Actually, I could see Deano back at Tigers.... just kidding.

Tigers are not as good as they used to be but are still one of the best in England.

As pointed out a lot of their current top players are very young and so still learning and likely to have dips in form eg Flood, Youngs, Manu and Kitchener. Their older players who these youngsters should be able to rely on like Geordan, Hamilton, Deacon and Castro are either injured or really off form or have had to retire like Newby and Ellis.

Over the next few seasons this'll change and they'll be more like the Tigers of old. But currently they've made poor purchases and the good players they do have can't do it all on their own.

They could possibly do with a new DOR and leave Cockerill as head coach as one of his biggest issues is purchasing poor players and not using the academy boys enough.

Big wrote:

beshocked wrote:If I was a Tigers fan I know who I would want to get as my next director of rugby.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm enjoying the job I've got and would like to keep my weekends free!

Deano? Shouldn't you be training or something?

yappysnap wrote:

Big wrote:

beshocked wrote:If I was a Tigers fan I know who I would want to get as my next director of rugby.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm enjoying the job I've got and would like to keep my weekends free!

Deano? Shouldn't you be training or something?

Funnily enough I have recently moved up to Newcastle for a new job... but no not me. Did play against him once though. He turned out against our old club playing for Leicestershire Constabulary. Scary at first but he was actually a good bloke.

I did say that after they - em, I mean 'we all' - sort out the European competition elements that the PRL are not happy with, then they'll be after the other 'inequality' in Europe - the salary caps.

Cockerill is just a little bit more direct and premature about mentioning it. he's ahead of the posse..always has been.

SecretFly wrote:I did say that after they - em, I mean 'we all' - sort out the European competition elements that the PRL are not happy with, then they'll be after the other 'inequality' in Europe - the salary caps.

Cockerill is just a little bit more direct and premature about mentioning it. he's ahead of the posse..always has been.

Don't you also mean 'except the Irish Provinces' - who get to have their cake and eat it when it comes to the way the European competition is structured (at all levels).

Do we Jimpy.

In what way?

And so it begins...

Jimpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I did say that after they - em, I mean 'we all' - sort out the European competition elements that the PRL are not happy with, then they'll be after the other 'inequality' in Europe - the salary caps.

Cockerill is just a little bit more direct and premature about mentioning it. he's ahead of the posse..always has been.

Don't you also mean 'except the Irish Provinces' - who get to have their cake and eat it when it comes to the way the European competition is structured (at all levels).

If you mean we've been winning it a good bit, then yes, I agree with you. That's all I can say to that comment. You have to play well to win it....always. Excuses aren't the best of tactics to use when trying to.

Now maybe we can get back to the topic. Cockerill suggesting they play at a disadvantage to French sides in the salary cap area???

I have to say that in the ear of the beholder, one person's comment may be interpreted as whingeing or complaining or straight-talking or whichever way the beholder (wants?) to interpret it.

Tone is important which is why listening often better to reading a transcript. But to be fair, experienced spokespeople like politicians will frequently be trained in separating their message and the words they use.

I'm too old to be too often fooled by weasel words.

My best guess is that Cockerill is saying that in trying to keep the Jeff domestically competitive, the PRL is making it clubs uncompetitive in Europe.

greytiger wrote:I have to say that in the ear of the beholder, one person's comment may be interpreted as whingeing or complaining or straight-talking or whichever way the beholder (wants?) to interpret it.

Tone is important which is why listening often better to reading a transcript. But to be fair, experienced spokespeople like politicians will frequently be trained in separating their message and the words they use.

I'm too old to be too often fooled by weasel words.

My best guess is that Cockerill is saying that in trying to keep the Jeff domestically competitive, the PRL is making it clubs uncompetitive in Europe.

Which is absolutely what he meant and is absolutely true. I'd say he's got every right to bang on about it.

yappysnap wrote:And so it begins...

Some of them literally jump into the boat, all you have to do is whack 'em with the oar...

So he does have a point but it isn't a relevent excuse for tigers as they would consider themselves equal with the top teams in europe and so they should.

I think it was more in reference to the criticism of a minority of fans post game. The injuries at Tigers have hurt them this season.

Jimpy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:And so it begins...

Some of them literally jump into the boat, all you have to do is whack 'em with the oar...

But you prefer you're old reliable grenade and net

So what happens when a penny less Region like the Ospreys take them apart at home on sunday?
The Ospreys have a even smaller wage cap.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I think it was more in reference to the criticism of a minority of fans post game. The injuries at Tigers have hurt them this season.

I've rarely known injuries that don't hurt, but maybe I'm just a wimp!

Seriously though, I know what you mean. I'm not sure if it is really worse than at other clubs or if I just notice it more as I'm a fan and therefore pay more attention to what's happening at Tigers. However, it does seem that injuries have been hurting us for quite a while on two fronts (players available at any given time and those lost before their peak), makes me think that rather than bemoaning the injury situation the club should be looking at ways to reduce the number of injuries.

viewtothegym wrote:So what happens when a penny less Region like the Ospreys take them apart at home on sunday?
The Ospreys have a even smaller wage cap.

And some fans with even smaller intelects it would seem.

Big wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I think it was more in reference to the criticism of a minority of fans post game. The injuries at Tigers have hurt them this season.

I've rarely known injuries that don't hurt, but maybe I'm just a wimp!

Seriously though, I know what you mean. I'm not sure if it is really worse than at other clubs or if I just notice it more as I'm a fan and therefore pay more attention to what's happening at Tigers. However, it does seem that injuries have been hurting us for quite a while on two fronts (players available at any given time and those lost before their peak), makes me think that rather than bemoaning the injury situation the club should be looking at ways to reduce the number of injuries.

I don't think your injuries are worse then other clubs it's just that Cockerills purchases to cover injuries have been far far worse and coupled with pretty rubbish squad management it's just made the situatino a million times worse. Let's have a little look:

Salvi- was meant to be replaced by Newby, a long term absentee forced to retire because of his knee damage. Does Cockerill act on this and get another 7? No he purchases Thorpe from Irish, a flanker apparently so bad he can't be trusted by Tigers and LI paid Leicester to take him, and then gets utitily journeyman Deacon in as well, who again is not worth the game time. Why not get one pretty good 7 instead?

Geordan Murphy- Getting on in his career and injury prone Murphy is meant to be covered by Tait, another player eternally injured, and infact damaged when originally bought.

Allan- Should be being pushed by Twelvetrees but Cockerills blind refussal to play talent unless it earns the shirt in the 10 minutes out of position he'll give it was the kiss of death on this one. He should have been assured a proper rotation policy with Allan and a whole heap on Heineken action. Instead you're now stuck with Allan who without the pressure has become even more average. Twelvetrees btw after a run of games for Glaws already looks 10x better then Allan this season.

Manu- Looking very very quiet at the moment, but still starts and plays every game when he's fit. There is a player in the Tigers squad called Smith, he is so keen and so dedicated to Tigers that he'd probably give his left nut to play, but rather then rotate or rest Manu and put Smith in the starting line up Cockeril decides to leave him out of the squad all together after his MoM display the week before. What was that about earning the shirt Rich?

Waldrom- Tigers best 8 and one of the few players actually comfy running with the ball, he now gets to be shunted all across the backrow to make way for the ponderously average Crane another player who earned his shirt when we all must have been blinking.

A Tuilagi- The big powerful and sadly very lazy winger was replaced by a... big powerful and still lazy winger, who seems to love throwing wild no-look offloads to the opposition. Apparently there are a few very talented wings in the Tigers academy, I don't think we'll be seeing them soon though (unless they put on 5+ stone).

yappysnap wrote:

Big wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I think it was more in reference to the criticism of a minority of fans post game. The injuries at Tigers have hurt them this season.

I've rarely known injuries that don't hurt, but maybe I'm just a wimp!

Seriously though, I know what you mean. I'm not sure if it is really worse than at other clubs or if I just notice it more as I'm a fan and therefore pay more attention to what's happening at Tigers. However, it does seem that injuries have been hurting us for quite a while on two fronts (players available at any given time and those lost before their peak), makes me think that rather than bemoaning the injury situation the club should be looking at ways to reduce the number of injuries.

I don't think your injuries are worse then other clubs it's just that Cockerills purchases to cover injuries have been far far worse and coupled with pretty rubbish squad management it's just made the situatino a million times worse. Let's have a little look:

Salvi- was meant to be replaced by Newby, a long term absentee forced to retire because of his knee damage. Does Cockerill act on this and get another 7? No he purchases Thorpe from Irish, a flanker apparently so bad he can't be trusted by Tigers and LI paid Leicester to take him, and then gets utitily journeyman Deacon in as well, who again is not worth the game time. Why not get one pretty good 7 instead?

Geordan Murphy- Getting on in his career and injury prone Murphy is meant to be covered by Tait, another player eternally injured, and infact damaged when originally bought.

Allan- Should be being pushed by Twelvetrees but Cockerills blind refussal to play talent unless it earns the shirt in the 10 minutes out of position he'll give it was the kiss of death on this one. He should have been assured a proper rotation policy with Allan and a whole heap on Heineken action. Instead you're now stuck with Allan who without the pressure has become even more average. Twelvetrees btw after a run of games for Glaws already looks 10x better then Allan this season.

Manu- Looking very very quiet at the moment, but still starts and plays every game when he's fit. There is a player in the Tigers squad called Smith, he is so keen and so dedicated to Tigers that he'd probably give his left nut to play, but rather then rotate or rest Manu and put Smith in the starting line up Cockeril decides to leave him out of the squad all together after his MoM display the week before. What was that about earning the shirt Rich?

Waldrom- Tigers best 8 and one of the few players actually comfy running with the ball, he now gets to be shunted all across the backrow to make way for the ponderously average Crane another player who earned his shirt when we all must have been blinking.

A Tuilagi- The big powerful and sadly very lazy winger was replaced by a... big powerful and still lazy winger, who seems to love throwing wild no-look offloads to the opposition. Apparently there are a few very talented wings in the Tigers academy, I don't think we'll be seeing them soon though (unless they put on 5+ stone).

Agree with that.

Wow Yappy, you managed to write all that without any mention of Ford..

Lets be honest Leicester have had it good for a long time, even someone with a little rugby knowledge could have coached them and had some success which is just as well for Cockerill!

But times have changed and Cockerill is beginning to find it tough, I don't think it will be too long before he is given the boot.

Yes, soon he'll be so bad, he'll be considered elligible to become the DOR at Bath, you know, with all the other Tigers cast offs..

Jimpy you seem to have a Big Issue with me & Bath?

Why?

Come on Jimpy, no need for that.

Jimpy thats not a very nice way to talk to a fellow 606er.

Isn't that against house rules?

I suppose the question is - would Leicester have kept the likes of Vesty,Twelvetrees,Hipkiss,Agulla and Moody if they had a higher salary cap?

Then again are any of them a serious loss bar perhaps Twelvetrees?

There's no doubt Leicester haven't had the best of luck of injuries but as mentioned is it self inflicted?

Is it just simply bad luck?

beshocked wrote:I suppose the question is - would Leicester have kept the likes of Vesty,Twelvetrees,Hipkiss,Agulla and Moody if they had a higher salary cap?

Then again are any of them a serious loss bar perhaps Twelvetrees?

There's no doubt Leicester haven't had the best of luck of injuries but as mentioned is it self inflicted?

Is it just simply bad luck?

It does I suppose depend on whether those players nominated would have preferred to leave or whether they were sold off to satisfy wage caps.

Of those Vesty and,Hipkiss appear to be lesser players than they were at WR.
Moody was at the end of a fine career and we were all sorry to see him go.
36 wanted more game-time than he'd wanted at Leicester and went for impossible kerching.
Agulla wasn't available for a third of the season. I'd hoped a deal could be stitched up. But the ceiling is to low. I believe that both parties wanted him to stay. But he's a luxury which couldn't be justified.

Biltong wrote:Come on Jimpy, no need for that.

You'll notice I've retracted my statement. However, it doesn't mean that it has stopped what i and i'm sure many others on here are thinking.

beshocked wrote:I suppose the question is - would Leicester have kept the likes of Vesty,Twelvetrees,Hipkiss,Agulla and Moody if they had a higher salary cap?

Then again are any of them a serious loss bar perhaps Twelvetrees?

There's no doubt Leicester haven't had the best of luck of injuries but as mentioned is it self inflicted?

Is it just simply bad luck?

Indeed, and he went to Glaws, not Barf, so clearly he wasn't that desperate

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:Come on Jimpy, no need for that.

You'll notice I've retracted my statement. However, it doesn't mean that it has stopped what i and i'm sure many others on here are thinking.

You have many Issues son.

Some bigger than others.


I don't know why 606v2 put up with people like this, it's not like Jimpy contributes anything, apart from insults!
He doesn't even have the bottle to stand by his comments, instead he chooses to send offensive Personal messages.

I would respond in the negative but since you're already a Bath supporter, that would be like kicking a man when he's down, you've already got enough Big Issues of your own to go round all of us.

greytiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:I suppose the question is - would Leicester have kept the likes of Vesty,Twelvetrees,Hipkiss,Agulla and Moody if they had a higher salary cap?

Then again are any of them a serious loss bar perhaps Twelvetrees?

There's no doubt Leicester haven't had the best of luck of injuries but as mentioned is it self inflicted?

Is it just simply bad luck?

It does I suppose depend on whether those players nominated would have preferred to leave or whether they were sold off to satisfy wage caps.

Of those Vesty and,Hipkiss appear to be lesser players than they were at WR.
Moody was at the end of a fine career and we were all sorry to see him go.
36 wanted more game-time than he'd wanted at Leicester and went for impossible kerching.
Agulla wasn't available for a third of the season. I'd hoped a deal could be stitched up. But the ceiling is to low. I believe that both parties wanted him to stay. But he's a luxury which couldn't be justified.

It's that whole what if. Hipkiss showed what he can do by scoring the winning try vs Saracens in the 2009/10 final. I feel that him and Vesty have regressed at Bath for whatever reason. Vesty has never been a superstar but he was the guy you could rely on at Leicester.

I feel these guys have more to give.

Players. Or players in certain roles seem to come along like London buses. You wait for an age for then then they all tip up together in their twos and threes.

Currently Tigers are waiting for the number 7 (It would be interesting to know what that route is) but two or three have broken down en-route.

Should I blame the ticket inspector, the depot manager or the London Transport Executive?