England's Half-Back Dilemma

While watching the Leicester v Osprey's game yesterday I couldn't help thinking that if England could play all their games at Welford Road then the half backs would pick themselves. I thought the performances of Youngs and Flood were as good as any other half-back pairing this weekend. In particular I though Flood was fantastic (The swan dive aside ).

Together they should be the first names on the team sheet for Lancaster in the AI's, however there is the inconsistency of one or both that makes that decision harder to make. I am aware that there are other individuals who can claim to be in with a shout of either jersey but for me I would start with the Leicester duo.

I wouldn't.

Youngs has had a torrid 12 months primarily due to being rushed back for England in RWC when not fit - due to Danny Care's injury there was little other option.

Leicester then rested him to let the injury heal. He came back rusty having no match fitness and really was not himself till the SA tour. further injury meant he missed yet another pre-season.

When fit and on form he is an excellent player. His passing becomes crisp and quick (as demonstrated yesterday) and he is always a threat ball in hand. However he needs more matches under his belt.

So for me Danny Care and Lee Dickson have been in form thios season and should be in the AI squad - while Youngs continues to regain his sharpness.

Care and Flood should work well.

Youngs and Flood are both very inconsistent players and both struggle behind a pack going backwards. Youngs could well be the long term solution, Flood pretty much definitely won't as his game has limitations. Fly half is THE big problem position in my opinion.

LT the point I was trying to make (not very successfully) is that away from Welford Road they aren't really that consistent, either of them, but particularly Youngs who can be affected too easily by things going on around him.
At Welford road though they are a different proposition.

LondonTiger wrote:So for me Danny Care and Lee Dickson have been in form thios season and should be in the AI squad - while Youngs continues to regain his sharpness.

Interesting LT, after watching Togers/O's yesterday i though it was the first time since coming back from injury that Young's the smaller really stuck his hand up for the 9 jersey. I'd still go with Care to start then again, i'm bias on that front!

Dickson just isn't quite in the same league as these two that are battling it out so far this season. He is exceptional for sure, and 'arguing' about having 3 players of the caliber to wear the Rose is a good arguement to have! As it stands, it is a 2 horse race for me.

Interestingly, I thought Youngs' performance was even more impressive given how the Tigers were owned at the breakdown for much of the game. He really didn't have an easy ride, especially since Toby plays very flat, giving Youngs fewer options if he can't deliver very quick ball.

Thought both played very well in spite of tough conditions (importance of game, going behind early, some very good pressure from Os).

pjm1 wrote:Interestingly, I thought Youngs' performance was even more impressive given how the Tigers were owned at the breakdown for much of the game. He really didn't have an easy ride, especially since Toby plays very flat, giving Youngs fewer options if he can't deliver very quick ball.

Thought both played very well in spite of tough conditions (importance of game, going behind early, some very good pressure from Os).

Not sure we were owned, but certainly not on the front foot. the key thing for Youngs was he decided what to do before picking the ball up and then executed with conviction. allied to not letting the ball just sit at the base it meant a high tempo and some really fast and accurate passing.

BUT

He needs more game time.


If England had a good back line I would actually select Dickson. As we lack some creativity and precision in the backs we need the extra flair that a Care (or youngs0 can bring.

LondonTiger wrote:Not sure we were owned, but certainly not on the front foot. the key thing for Youngs was he decided what to do before picking the ball up and then executed with conviction. allied to not letting the ball just sit at the base it meant a high tempo and some really fast and accurate passing.

BUT

He needs more game time.


If England had a good back line I would actually select Dickson. As we lack some creativity and precision in the backs we need the extra flair that a Care (or youngs0 can bring.

That was the most impressive... he has a habit of dilly-dallying and seeming to be stuck between two opposing ideas once he gets his hands on the ball. There was also less crabbing from him, save for a maybe 10 minute spell when he did it a few times in a row.

I'm not worried about the England 9 position right now: with Youngs, Care, Dickson x 2 and maybe even W'worth (!!) we're well covered by players good enough when on form... which means we should be picking the form players who suit the game plan. When was the last time we did that at SH?!

I do still worry about 10 - Flood can be sublime when he clicks, but can get stuck in a deep rut occasionally. His flat game can be lethal if he gets enough support and options around him, but is susceptible to an aggressive defence especially if his backs are not quite on his wavelength (more likely to be the case in England).

What to do at 12 is of more concern!

pjm1 wrote:
That was the most impressive... he has a habit of dilly-dallying and seeming to be stuck between two opposing ideas once he gets his hands on the ball. There was also less crabbing from him, save for a maybe 10 minute spell when he did it a few times in a row.

I'm not worried about the England 9 position right now: with Youngs, Care, Dickson x 2 and maybe even W'worth (!!) we're well covered by players good enough when on form... which means we should be picking the form players who suit the game plan. When was the last time we did that at SH?!

I do still worry about 10 - Flood can be sublime when he clicks, but can get stuck in a deep rut occasionally. His flat game can be lethal if he gets enough support and options around him, but is susceptible to an aggressive defence especially if his backs are not quite on his wavelength (more likely to be the case in England).

What to do at 12 is of more concern!

Agree very much with that. Youngs and Flood are great when the game is played their way, but Youngs in particular struggles to adapt when the players around them are a bit more restrained. A sniping run is no good when you are the only player the defence needs to worry about! For now I'm going with the general sentiment that Youngs needs more game time regardless. So many of his problems of late are due to being played either through injury or before he's back to his best. That is pointless when we have other good options at 9.

Big wrote:
Agree very much with that. Youngs and Flood are great when the game is played their way, but Youngs in particular struggles to adapt when the players around them are a bit more restrained. A sniping run is no good when you are the only player the defence needs to worry about! For now I'm going with the general sentiment that Youngs needs more game time regardless. So many of his problems of late are due to being played either through injury or before he's back to his best. That is pointless when we have other good options at 9.

Yup... Unless injury strikes again (!!) he'll definitely be in the England squad and that, combined with the AP matches between now and the Nov tests, mean he should be there or thereabouts. It will be nice to be able to choose from options rather than force people into the 9 shirt, as you rightly say.

What surprises me when watching Leicester is how long the ball takes to get to Allen at 12, by which time the Ospreys defence was often all over him. Youngs' and Flood's distribution needs to speed up. Care for me, followed by Dickson for his all round energy. At 10 I would stick with Flood, with Burns hot on his heels.

I'm not sure dillemma is the correct word here...

Or if it was I really wish Wales would have the same Dillemmas!!!!!

bathmad wrote:What surprises me when watching Leicester is how long the ball takes to get to Allen at 12, by which time the Ospreys defence was often all over him. Youngs' and Flood's distribution needs to speed up. Care for me, followed by Dickson for his all round energy. At 10 I would stick with Flood, with Burns hot on his heels.

I might be wrong, but I think that's because a lot of the time, both Flood and Allen are playing incredibly flat. Frequently, Allen (or whoever is standing one-out from Toby - not always Allen) will be used as a decoy with the ball going to the player 3-4 yards back. Of course, you have to use a decoy sometimes, which is generally when that particular player gets engulfed by defenders. Although it makes it look like poor play, it's the only way you can keep the defence guessing and make alternate plays work.

I actually though Ben's passing was a lot snappier yesterday. Apart from a few crabs across, he was pretty good at getting quick ball from them base - at least as quick as not having a "conventional" back row would allow.

Edited to add: this is all based on the game against the Ospreys. Previous games this season have definitely suffered from the problem you describe; the Toulouse game especially. It did look much more encouraging yesterday, though.

Def a bit more of the Youngs of old about Sundays performance. Brilliant to see and England need it. He still has three (?) games before the AI's to work on his form as well so plenty of time.

Flood is a very good player, there are questions over him but he's still better then any of the other options out there, and proved that when the team is going forward he can be a true attacking threat.

As to Allan I thought he got the ball alright but wasn't quick enough with it, or more importantly never looked to do anything other then bosh it up (other then when creating that try ofcourse!).

All in all impressive display for England fans over the weekend, things are looking just a little brighter. Let's see what Lancaster can manage now...

Youngs... we don't want to draw too many conclusions from just one game but it was a good improvement. Hopefully more to come.
Flood... couldn't have done much more IMO. He will always have his weaknesses (pinging the corners when he needs to doesn't seem to come naturally) but another to have played a very good game.
Allen... I can't see him being anything other than military medium - he rarely makes an absolute howler but doesn't do much to excite, either. He is, however, good at setting others up. Just not sure he has enough at international level? Only justification for selection at the moment would be if you wanted to play a Tigers 9-10-12-13 combo?!

pjm1 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Not sure we were owned, but certainly not on the front foot. the key thing for Youngs was he decided what to do before picking the ball up and then executed with conviction. allied to not letting the ball just sit at the base it meant a high tempo and some really fast and accurate passing.

BUT

He needs more game time.


If England had a good back line I would actually select Dickson. As we lack some creativity and precision in the backs we need the extra flair that a Care (or youngs0 can bring.

That was the most impressive... he has a habit of dilly-dallying and seeming to be stuck between two opposing ideas once he gets his hands on the ball. There was also less crabbing from him, save for a maybe 10 minute spell when he did it a few times in a row.

I'm not worried about the England 9 position right now: with Youngs, Care, Dickson x 2 and maybe even W'worth (!!) we're well covered by players good enough when on form... which means we should be picking the form players who suit the game plan. When was the last time we did that at SH?!

I do still worry about 10 - Flood can be sublime when he clicks, but can get stuck in a deep rut occasionally. His flat game can be lethal if he gets enough support and options around him, but is susceptible to an aggressive defence especially if his backs are not quite on his wavelength (more likely to be the case in England).

What to do at 12 is of more concern!

I don't get the problem with him crabbing (perhaps sometimes do it a little less), he's used it many times to pull across a defender to create a gap for someone to run through. Of course it only works if someone else is on his wave length.

Nathan, you've hit the nail on the head... it's fine when it works! Used judiciously, it's like any tactic - all about keeping the defence guessing. Whether running decoys, wrap-around or mis-passes; they're fine as long as they don't become predictable.

What had happened prior to his latest injury was he was crabbing too frequently and not creating any gaps for others. Which meant all of his outside backs had even less space and time to do anything... certainly didn't help!

If he can keep it mixed up and use it effectively, it can be a useful weapon in the armory.

pjm1 wrote:Nathan, you've hit the nail on the head... it's fine when it works! Used judiciously, it's like any tactic - all about keeping the defence guessing. Whether running decoys, wrap-around or mis-passes; they're fine as long as they don't become predictable.

What had happened prior to his latest injury was he was crabbing too frequently and not creating any gaps for others. Which meant all of his outside backs had even less space and time to do anything... certainly didn't help!

If he can keep it mixed up and use it effectively, it can be a useful weapon in the armory.

+1

Youngs and Flood are great when the game is played their way, but Youngs in particular struggles to adapt when the players around them are a bit more restrained.

I actually think he's maturing through that. He certainly shone at the end of last season and in the summer tor when actually fit. I agree with LT in that he should not play in the AIs.

The danger with Youngs will be that after one strong performance the England management will declare him fit and ready to return to international action. He should be spared the "elite" coaching of the England set-up and be left alone until the 6 Nations. Danny Care is on great form at the moment and should start as first choice in the AIs. I'd take Dickson and Simpson as the replacements (Simpson on the bench).

Fly half is a tougher choice at the moment. Flood, Hodgson and Burns probably the three I'd want in the squad at the moment, but with Hodgson retired it makes the choice of 3rd fly half tricky. Olly Barkley??

Nah I don't think Barkley is either that good a 10 or on the England radar. I think Lancaster will go with Flood, Burns and Farrell. With Farrell senior on the coaching staff young Owen will definitely be selected.

I agree that will be the likely outcome, but in my view farrell should be nowhere near the squad as a fly half, not until he plays there at club level.