WHAT HAS LEE BYRNE DONE?

by thespreys Wed 24 Oct 2012, 12:58 pm

Why has BYRNE been left out of WALES SQUAD again ?. He is without doubt the best fullback WALES have.

by Jimpy Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:14 pm

Erm...probably because Gatland has a policy of not selecting foreign based players and that as part of the French 14, he probably wouldn't be available to train or for selection for the 1st match at least?

by ChequeredJersey Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:31 pm

Are Phillips/Hook in the squad?

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:33 pm

I wouldn't consider him better than Halfpenny or Liam Williams to be honest. He is good, but so are they. All three different types of players.

In a three horse race the others get selected ahead of him because they wont have trouble getting released, they are younger, Halfpenny is a better goal kicker, Williams a better tackler...!

I didn't think the decision was that hard for the Management. Byrne is a great player but we have some good rivals that won't let us down.

by Jimpy Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:33 pm

According to the BBC, their inclusion is in the balance.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:36 pm

Fair enough then.

by HERSH Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:38 pm

When he jumps he leads with his front foot, his a citing waiting to happen!

Not really a surprise.

Oops I forgot I'm not allowed to comment on Welsh issues.

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:40 pm

Jimpy wrote:According to the BBC, their inclusion is in the balance.

They are in the squad but unavailable for the pre-AI polish trip. Though the WRU are working hard to guaranty their release for the Australia game.

Charteris is released already.

by HERSH Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:42 pm

Charteris is released because he had the foresight to negotiate his release in his contract.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:44 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Jimpy wrote:According to the BBC, their inclusion is in the balance.

They are in the squad but unavailable for the pre-AI polish trip. Though the WRU are working hard to guaranty their release for the Australia game.

Charteris is released already.

To be honest the players and the WRU should have though of these things in advance, after all in was 2005 when Mark Taylor was at Sale and we first discovered all of these release issues. These boys have signed contracts since then, and could have requested 'early release' clauses etc if they had wanted to.

by offload Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:09 pm

I've watched CA four times this season and can't see any reason to recall Byrne. He's not the first or second best FB option we have.

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:12 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Jimpy wrote:According to the BBC, their inclusion is in the balance.

They are in the squad but unavailable for the pre-AI polish trip. Though the WRU are working hard to guaranty their release for the Australia game.

Charteris is released already.

To be honest the players and the WRU should have though of these things in advance, after all in was 2005 when Mark Taylor was at Sale and we first discovered all of these release issues. These boys have signed contracts since then, and could have requested 'early release' clauses etc if they had wanted to.

There is no such thing as an early release clause with any player. No one has one. Release clause is a made up media title. They do not exist.

It is purely down to the clubs or as in england the RFU to gain access to Welsh players abroad.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:23 pm

maestegmafia wrote:There is no such thing as an early release clause with any player. No one has one. Release clause is a made up media title. They do not exist.

Wrong. They can exist - if the employee (player) and employer agree to it. It woul dof course mean reduced wages for the player - so most choose not to go down this route. Wilkinson had an agreement in his first contract with toulon allowing him to attend extra sessions with England outside official release dates.

maestegmafia wrote:It is purely down to the clubs or as in england the RFU to gain access to Welsh players abroad.

RFU have nothing to do with allowing players from other countries to be released by English clubs outside of sanctioned windows. The clubs are the employers - it is up to them. PRL represents the clubs but WRU will not talk to them. Yet they are negotiating with French clubs.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:24 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Jimpy wrote:According to the BBC, their inclusion is in the balance.

They are in the squad but unavailable for the pre-AI polish trip. Though the WRU are working hard to guaranty their release for the Australia game.

Charteris is released already.

To be honest the players and the WRU should have though of these things in advance, after all in was 2005 when Mark Taylor was at Sale and we first discovered all of these release issues. These boys have signed contracts since then, and could have requested 'early release' clauses etc if they had wanted to.

There is no such thing as an early release clause with any player. No one has one. Release clause is a made up media title. They do not exist.

It is purely down to the clubs or as in england the RFU to gain access to Welsh players abroad.

Are you honestly telling me that a player can not get the words 'to be released for international training camps' written into their contract? Most likely if a club were asked to write something like that into the contract they would then re-assess the players wages, and most likely reduce it by about a month or two (value), or tell the player that they will have to look else where fot those conditions. However seeing as you can have all kind of weird and wonderful things written into a contract then I can't see a single reason (especially not a legal one) why they could not have what is esencially an early release clause.

by HERSH Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:24 pm

HERSH wrote:Charteris is released because he had the foresight to negotiate his release in his contract.

You do believe in contracts don't you Mae? Rolling Eyes

by HammerofThunor Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:27 pm

Haskell had a release clause in his contract. Stade Francais demanded he returned to Paris during the 6 nations off-weekend and the RFU refused as his contract with Stade Francais said he could stay with England. If it wasn't in his contract they would have been in breach of IRB regulations and without a doubt Stade Francais would have taken the legal action they threatened.

by HERSH Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:35 pm

Finished with my woman 'cause she couldn't help me with my mind
People think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time
All day long I think of things but nothing seems to satisfy
Think I'll lose my mind if I don't find something to pacify
Can you help me occupy my brain?
Oh yeah

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:45 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Jimpy wrote:According to the BBC, their inclusion is in the balance.

They are in the squad but unavailable for the pre-AI polish trip. Though the WRU are working hard to guaranty their release for the Australia game.

Charteris is released already.

To be honest the players and the WRU should have though of these things in advance, after all in was 2005 when Mark Taylor was at Sale and we first discovered all of these release issues. These boys have signed contracts since then, and could have requested 'early release' clauses etc if they had wanted to.

There is no such thing as an early release clause with any player. No one has one. Release clause is a made up media title. They do not exist.

It is purely down to the clubs or as in england the RFU to gain access to Welsh players abroad.

Are you honestly telling me that a player can not get the words 'to be released for international training camps' written into their contract? Most likely if a club were asked to write something like that into the contract they would then re-assess the players wages, and most likely reduce it by about a month or two (value), or tell the player that they will have to look else where fot those conditions. However seeing as you can have all kind of weird and wonderful things written into a contract then I can't see a single reason (especially not a legal one) why they could not have what is esencially an early release clause.

No, no one has a release clause in the contract it does not exist...!

The players get a verbal agreement with coach or President of the club at best. There is not one single player with an International Release specification within their contract. We are lucky enough that the French clubs that Welsh players are at generally have big squads and see the huge benefits of their Welsh players playing for Wales.

by HERSH Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:47 pm

HERSH wrote:Charteris is released because he had the foresight to negotiate his release in his contract.

by Morgannwg Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:48 pm

Halfpenny, Williams, Prydie and maybe Evans all fullbacks that are better and playing in Wales. Simple.

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:49 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Haskell had a release clause in his contract. Stade Francais demanded he returned to Paris during the 6 nations off-weekend and the RFU refused as his contract with Stade Francais said he could stay with England. If it wasn't in his contract they would have been in breach of IRB regulations and without a doubt Stade Francais would have taken the legal action they threatened.

Thats rubbish...

If that was true when the RFU didnt want to release Ben Morgan last year to the Scarlets, but did because the Scarlets said they needed him.

Haskell was on a verbal agreement and the RFU pleaded Stade complied.

by HERSH Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:50 pm

Can't argue with that Morgannwg thumbsup

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 2:58 pm

Morgannwg wrote:Halfpenny, Williams, Prydie and maybe Evans all fullbacks that are better and playing in Wales. Simple.

And to think we had little option beyond Byrne 18 months ago certainly good to see the strength in depth coming from regional academies.

was similar for Openside Flankers and for Tighthead Props previously. Now those positions look much better too.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 24 Oct 2012, 3:13 pm

To be honest I think we were just in our untouchables phase back then. After all Martyn Thomas, Dan Evans and Stoddart have all been on the scene for a fair while now, and it was something like three years ago that Prydie got his first cap.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 24 Oct 2012, 3:27 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Jimpy wrote:According to the BBC, their inclusion is in the balance.

They are in the squad but unavailable for the pre-AI polish trip. Though the WRU are working hard to guaranty their release for the Australia game.

Charteris is released already.

To be honest the players and the WRU should have though of these things in advance, after all in was 2005 when Mark Taylor was at Sale and we first discovered all of these release issues. These boys have signed contracts since then, and could have requested 'early release' clauses etc if they had wanted to.

There is no such thing as an early release clause with any player. No one has one. Release clause is a made up media title. They do not exist.

It is purely down to the clubs or as in england the RFU to gain access to Welsh players abroad.

Are you honestly telling me that a player can not get the words 'to be released for international training camps' written into their contract? Most likely if a club were asked to write something like that into the contract they would then re-assess the players wages, and most likely reduce it by about a month or two (value), or tell the player that they will have to look else where fot those conditions. However seeing as you can have all kind of weird and wonderful things written into a contract then I can't see a single reason (especially not a legal one) why they could not have what is esencially an early release clause.

No, no one has a release clause in the contract it does not exist...!

The players get a verbal agreement with coach or President of the club at best. There is not one single player with an International Release specification within their contract. We are lucky enough that the French clubs that Welsh players are at generally have big squads and see the huge benefits of their Welsh players playing for Wales.

Johnny Wilkinson certainly had such a clause last year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/feb/28/stade-francais-no-more-english-players

While clubs are not obliged to release players for international duty this week under International Rugby Board regulations, Haskell and Palmer have both signed letters making them available to England when required. Wilkinson has the same written in his contract with Toulon.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 24 Oct 2012, 3:29 pm

Pete - your wasting your time trying to argue the point here, and I'll explain. The reply will be 'Jonny WIlkinson is English, no Welsh players have the clause'

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 3:41 pm

Why would it differ for players of different nations.

French clubs make arrangements with National Unions requesting player. Sometimes a national union is granted access sometimes not, and no money has to transfer to do so.

These players do not have international release written in to their contracts, or if the players or the press believe they do, this is inevitably disproved when the clubs request those players as in the Link above, during an International window.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 24 Oct 2012, 3:46 pm

Maes - i think we have cross wires. WE were saying the players should have got this sorted out whent hey got their contracts, after all the whole release issue kicked off back in 2005 with Mark Taylor. We are not saying they have, or they have not, just that they should have done it. If I were a player, and being able to play for Wales meant that much to me, I would have ensured it were in my contract (like Willko, and Co.).

However, there are such things as release clauses, but whether or not the welsh lads have then (and I assume not) does not stop them from being real.

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 3:49 pm

aye SS

I am saying there is absolutely nothing the players can do about it or could have when the contracts were written. The releases don't exist, whatever agreements anyone has verbally or paper is not worth a thing, no matter what country they are in.

We just have to be thankful that the WRU have a good relationship with french clubs and they have generally been very kind to the WRU and released our players as much as they can.

That is why Howley and Gatland have been doing so many trips to see French clubs, whilst giving up on the un-negotiable RFU.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 24 Oct 2012, 3:54 pm

All French and English based players in the squad will be available for the first 3 games, their respective clubs have no choice but to release them as the games are inside the IRB window. Its the Polish training camp and the Australia game that they do no have to be released for.

As for Byrne I wouldn't say he is better than Halfpenny in any sense but he has been on top form and would have added some extra experience to the squad.

by HammerofThunor Wed 24 Oct 2012, 3:58 pm

maestegmafia wrote:aye SS

I am saying there is absolutely nothing the players can do about it or could have when the contracts were written. The releases don't exist, whatever agreements anyone has verbally or paper is not worth a thing, no matter what country they are in.

We just have to be thankful that the WRU have a good relationship with french clubs and they have generally been very kind to the WRU and released our players as much as they can.

That is why Howley and Gatland have been doing so many trips to see French clubs, whilst giving up on the un-negotiable RFU.

Is there a legal reason for this? Why would a paper contract that said a player would be released for XXX outside of the IRB international window not be worth anything?

EDIT: Reading the reference from Pete, it doesn't sound like Stade Francais agreed with Haskell and Palmer's release. It also doesn't sound like the RFU pleaded. It sounds like they said that they weren't going back and they had a written agreement that Stade Francais couldn't go back on. Not really a surprise they both left when their contracts were up.

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 4:23 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Reading the reference from Pete, it doesn't sound like Stade Francais agreed with Haskell and Palmer's release. It also doesn't sound like the RFU pleaded. It sounds like they said that they weren't going back and they had a written agreement that Stade Francais couldn't go back on. Not really a surprise they both left when their contracts were up.

It was during the Six Nations international window so the RFU didnt have to release them.

by Toadfish Wed 24 Oct 2012, 4:26 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:aye SS

I am saying there is absolutely nothing the players can do about it or could have when the contracts were written. The releases don't exist, whatever agreements anyone has verbally or paper is not worth a thing, no matter what country they are in.

We just have to be thankful that the WRU have a good relationship with french clubs and they have generally been very kind to the WRU and released our players as much as they can.

That is why Howley and Gatland have been doing so many trips to see French clubs, whilst giving up on the un-negotiable RFU.

Is there a legal reason for this? Why would a paper contract that said a player would be released for XXX outside of the IRB international window not be worth anything?

EDIT: Reading the reference from Pete, it doesn't sound like Stade Francais agreed with Haskell and Palmer's release. It also doesn't sound like the RFU pleaded. It sounds like they said that they weren't going back and they had a written agreement that Stade Francais couldn't go back on. Not really a surprise they both left when their contracts were up.

Nope, no legal reason why they can't (and do in some cases) have these provisions.

by GunsGerms Wed 24 Oct 2012, 4:48 pm

lee Byrne had one stellar year and the rest average to good.

by GunsGerms Wed 24 Oct 2012, 4:50 pm

Halfpenny is the best 15 in wales, second best in the NH. Byrne is past it.

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 4:55 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Halfpenny is the best 15 in wales, second best in the NH. Byrne is past it.

Lima Williams looking very good too at the moment. We are pretty lucky with Fullbacks.

by GunsGerms Wed 24 Oct 2012, 5:05 pm

Lima Williams? Is that a Brian Lima Shane Williams hybrid?

by HammerofThunor Wed 24 Oct 2012, 5:07 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Reading the reference from Pete, it doesn't sound like Stade Francais agreed with Haskell and Palmer's release. It also doesn't sound like the RFU pleaded. It sounds like they said that they weren't going back and they had a written agreement that Stade Francais couldn't go back on. Not really a surprise they both left when their contracts were up.

It was during the Six Nations international window so the RFU didnt have to release them.

no it wasn't. It was during the off weekend when the International Window has a gap. The EPS agreement allows the RFU to keep the England based players. But only these. that's why Morgan had to go back to the Scarlets. Palmer and Haskell didn't go back to Stade Francais even though they were wanted.

EDIT: Just to back that up with dates, the above article is dated Monday 28th Feb 2011 and talks about the lack of release for the weekend (5-6 March 2011). The 6 nations website fixture archives show this was one of the off-weekends

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/match-centre_fixtures-results.php?includeref=736&season=2010-2011

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Oct 2012, 5:20 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Reading the reference from Pete, it doesn't sound like Stade Francais agreed with Haskell and Palmer's release. It also doesn't sound like the RFU pleaded. It sounds like they said that they weren't going back and they had a written agreement that Stade Francais couldn't go back on. Not really a surprise they both left when their contracts were up.

It was during the Six Nations international window so the RFU didnt have to release them.

no it wasn't. It was during the off weekend when the International Window has a gap. The EPS agreement allows the RFU to keep the England based players. But only these. that's why Morgan had to go back to the Scarlets. Palmer and Haskell didn't go back to Stade Francais even though they were wanted.

EDIT: Just to back that up with dates, the above article is dated Monday 28th Feb 2011 and talks about the lack of release for the weekend (5-6 March 2011). The 6 nations website fixture archives show this was one of the off-weekends

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/match-centre_fixtures-results.php?includeref=736&season=2010-2011

I didn't know there was a window within the window...! And only one window within the larger window on the non game weekends, not two...?

Thats interesting...! We are talking about two years ago and it certainly doesn't seem like the same rules apply now as did then, as you pointed out Morgan was returned to Scarlets last year.

I would think that the RFU used the training time reasoning. The IRB provides national training camp time which all clubs have to comply with.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Wed 24 Oct 2012, 7:31 pm

Ask Thom Evans !

by HERSH Wed 24 Oct 2012, 8:40 pm

You're not going to stand for that are you Mae?

by thespreys Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:18 pm

Why are you all talkin total rubbish ie players contracts,this post is as to why BYRNE has not been selected again when he is playing well for CA.But then once your in the click you just can,t get out, take WARBURCRAP he gets injured running into the wind it,s a farce and the reason why we can,t compete with NZ.

by offload Wed 24 Oct 2012, 10:18 pm

thespreys wrote:Why are you all talkin total rubbish ie players contracts,this post is as to why BYRNE has not been selected again when he is playing well for CA.But then once your in the click you just can,t get out, take WARBURCRAP he gets injured running into the wind it,s a farce and the reason why we can,t compete with NZ.

Well, I'll repeat my earlier post in case you missed it.
Byrne is not good enough. He's not the best or even second best FB. He's not been international standard for some time and is unlikely to feature again for Wales unless we get a bad run of injuries.

The reason we struggle to compete with NZ is a very different question, but nothing to do with Warbuton. If you take the best XV players from both sides, man for man in most positions they are better than us. Simple really...

by HammerofThunor Wed 24 Oct 2012, 10:40 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Reading the reference from Pete, it doesn't sound like Stade Francais agreed with Haskell and Palmer's release. It also doesn't sound like the RFU pleaded. It sounds like they said that they weren't going back and they had a written agreement that Stade Francais couldn't go back on. Not really a surprise they both left when their contracts were up.

It was during the Six Nations international window so the RFU didnt have to release them.

no it wasn't. It was during the off weekend when the International Window has a gap. The EPS agreement allows the RFU to keep the England based players. But only these. that's why Morgan had to go back to the Scarlets. Palmer and Haskell didn't go back to Stade Francais even though they were wanted.

EDIT: Just to back that up with dates, the above article is dated Monday 28th Feb 2011 and talks about the lack of release for the weekend (5-6 March 2011). The 6 nations website fixture archives show this was one of the off-weekends

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/match-centre_fixtures-results.php?includeref=736&season=2010-2011

I didn't know there was a window within the window...! And only one window within the larger window on the non game weekends, not two...?

Thats interesting...! We are talking about two years ago and it certainly doesn't seem like the same rules apply now as did then, as you pointed out Morgan was returned to Scarlets last year.

I would think that the RFU used the training time reasoning. The IRB provides national training camp time which all clubs have to comply with.

That shows how much better relationship the regions have had with the WRU over the years (the English players had to go back to their clubs twice during the 6 nations until the EPS deal in 2008/09). There are two weekends during the 6 nations that are outside the window.

The reason Morgan had to go back is because the Scarlets wanted him and there was no deal that allowed him to be released (he certainly wouldn't have it in his contract as he was builder when he signed for them wasn't he?).

The extra training time introduced in 2008/09 is for 3 days before the 6 nations window and AI. But it can't stop the player playing for their club/domestic team. The RFU used the fact that Haskell had it in his contract that he would be released for the extra time.

by Morgannwg Thu 25 Oct 2012, 12:09 am

GunsGerms wrote:Halfpenny is the best 15 in wales, second best in the NH. Byrne is past it.

Who's first best then? Can't be a certain injured Leinsterman can it Wink

.

by Guest Thu 25 Oct 2012, 12:11 am

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Ask Thom Evans !

Nice one.

by GunsGerms Thu 25 Oct 2012, 6:44 am

Morgannwg wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Halfpenny is the best 15 in wales, second best in the NH. Byrne is past it.

Who's first best then? Can't be a certain injured Leinsterman can it .

Sure is. At the moment though Halfpenny was very impressive in the 6n.

by HERSH Thu 25 Oct 2012, 8:38 am

Back on topic!

What has Lee Byrne Done?

Did he do Alex from the One Show?

by Ospreydragon Fri 26 Oct 2012, 6:32 pm

"Charteris is released because he had the foresight to negotiate his release in his contract." -- That's an assumption, unless you are privy to the contract negotiations of all the players. It's more likely to be the case that other players were only allowed to play in int. games within the international window, and the clubs would not agree to anything else, at least not contractually.

As for Lee Byrne, he is in top form and I agree with you -- he should be in the Wales squad.

by HammerofThunor Fri 26 Oct 2012, 6:37 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17217346

Doesn't specifically say it's in his contract but he's pretty confident (and is the only French based player released?) for word of mouth.

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