The Law of Unintended Consequence

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10842658

The row escalates over the judiciaries failure to adequately sanction thugs involved in the recent trend towards barbaric, premeditated and deliberate targeting of All Black captain Richie McCaw by deliberate and calculated acts of foul play. The NZ players association chief has strongly condemning the South African citing commissioner who has continuous provided carte blanche for cowardly opposition "hard men" who have ritually attempted to illegally remove McCaw's constant threat from the game, and arguably end his career prematurely.

I can't help but think that with the AIs looming at the usual anti-All Black sentiment that entails (cue the annual "outrage" over the Haka protocols and questioning of whether NZ's success is entirely attributable to being given an easy ride by referees in some sort of conspiracy), this will ultimately end up haunting New Zealand. In fact no doubt any minute now tired old incidents of alleged All Black indiscretions will be exumed from their resting places and cast around like some kind of rallying call with emotive tag lines such as "lest we forget".

It's no secret that NZ are invariably given a rough ride during the AIs in terms of acts of foul play. In the past we've seen Dylan Hartley get away with a WWF style elbow drop on McCaw completely unpenalised or cited; conversely we've seen Kevin Mealamu cited for cleaning out English players illegally killing the ball, we've seen Dan Carter cited for tackling a Welsh player rather than letting him score a try and any amount of other nonsense.

I predict that despite copping more off-the-ball stuff than you could shake a strip of Biltong at, that a vital All Black will bizarrely be cited for some innoccuous act, will be given an insanely long ban, possibly 8 or 9 weeks and the citing judiciary will make a statement along the lines of "A suspension that will send a message to players about foul play and act as a deterent" blah blah, in some mocking of this players association statement.

We have to accept that international rugby is now a highly politicised beast and the amount of money washing around means that things like sporting integrity, fair play and the genuine best interests of the game are no longer paramount considerations. Representatives of invidual unions act as lobyists for their own best interest and the result of the game is as much influenced by what goes on behind board room doors and in hall ways as it is on the pitch between the kick off and final whistle.

This will continue until IRB meetings are televised and the transcripts of all meetings within the IRB are made public.We hold our politicians charged with running our countries to account, and so should be the executives in charge of running the game of rugby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXJyDHFKn0

lest we forget

mowgli wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXJyDHFKn0

lest we forget

Like clockwork, thats mowgli...

The sound of inevitability AWOP

Well AWOP, you better hope it is the same South African judiciary that heads that citing then.

They seem to be lenient enough.

Well the ban is effectively 4 games because Deans has left him out of the NH tour despite injury problems.

Given the circumstances I think it is a reasonable penalty personally.

I don't think your prediction will come true about the citing of an AB by the way.

Really looking forward to the tour.

Wonder if any of the NH opponents will have the honour of standing opposite Kapa o Pango? Or will it just be the run of the mill Ka Mate?

Well, I like both to be honest.

Come on biltong! You can do better than that Your reasonable'ness is however duly noted

And hows about that new biltong phrase AWoP coined, nice touch. Much better than boep.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Well the ban is effectively 4 games because Deans has left him out of the NH tour despite injury problems.

Given the circumstances I think it is a reasonable penalty personally.

I don't think your prediction will come true about the citing of an AB by the way.

Really looking forward to the tour.

To be honest, Higganbotham had a pretty rank game anyway, the knee and headbut aside. Perhaps he was left out for that reason.

ebop wrote:Come on biltong! You can do better than that Your reasonable'ness is however duly noted

And hows about that new biltong phrase AWoP coined, nice touch. Much better than boep.

Nothing to do with being resonable mate, I love a challenge being laid down.

Saw that, although I would suggest it didn't come out as well as he hoped.

I was thinking I should respond to it, but sadly didn't know how to.

anotherworldofpain wrote:The row escalates over the judiciaries failure to adequately sanction thugs involved in the recent trend towards barbaric, premeditated and deliberate targeting of All Black captain Richie McCaw by deliberate and calculated acts of foul play. The NZ players association chief has strongly condemning the South African citing commissioner who has continuous provided carte blanche for cowardly opposition "hard men" who have ritually attempted to illegally remove McCaw's constant threat from the game prone, limp body from the wrong side of the ruck, and arguably end his career prematurely.

Fixed that up for you.

Attempted humour aside...two instances were brought up in the other thread about certain wrongdoings McCaw copped from other kiwi sides in Super Rugby including a forearm strangle on the ground (which he says is the worst that ever happened to him) and a head stomp from a fellow All Black. Given that there are probably dozens of other instances over the years, were the kiwis suitably up in arms over all this vigilante justice at the time? It seems to have only become a witchhunt since other countries started doing it.

Full Credit wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:The row escalates over the judiciaries failure to adequately sanction thugs involved in the recent trend towards barbaric, premeditated and deliberate targeting of All Black captain Richie McCaw by deliberate and calculated acts of foul play. The NZ players association chief has strongly condemning the South African citing commissioner who has continuous provided carte blanche for cowardly opposition "hard men" who have ritually attempted to illegally remove McCaw's constant threat from the game prone, limp body from the wrong side of the ruck, and arguably end his career prematurely.

Fixed that up for you.

Attempted humour aside...two instances were brought up in the other thread about certain wrongdoings McCaw copped from other kiwi sides in Super Rugby including a forearm strangle on the ground (which he says is the worst that ever happened to him) and a head stomp from a fellow All Black. Given that there are probably dozens of other instances over the years, were the kiwis suitably up in arms over all this vigilante justice at the time? It seems to have only become a witchhunt since other countries Australia started doing it.

Fixed up.

Well played Biltong.

Full Credit wrote:Well played Biltong.

It's true, we have always been thugs, Neanderthals, bullies, brainless. Australia is supposed to be the team full of back line players running around and not over the opponents.

Must say , this tough guy act of Australia isn't going down well across the ditch.

That's the problem Biltong, it's just an act. I'm sure we'll go back into our shells the next time we play Scotland or England. No doubt Dingo told everyone to go out there and sack-up for a change. On this occasion Higgers got it wrong but it was good to finally see some intent, even if it was misguided.

FC, I think the one player that led the charge for Australia being a bit tougher in the forwards was Sharpe.

The way he managed to niggle Etzebeth and got him thinking of retaliation rather than playing the game was smart.

As you say Higginbotham got it wrong, as did Greyling, but every team needs that sting in the forwards, others feed off it.

anotherworldofpain wrote:conversely we've seen Kevin Mealamu cited for cleaning out English players illegally killing the ball

Or he was cited for headbutting, depending on your viewpoint.

Players get cited for foul play from all nations. There's no conspiracy. Mistakes are sometimes made, but that's life.

AWOP please change the tune McCaw does as every great 7 play to the line and just over it.As every decent flanker has for years the days of a good shoeing sadly are gone.The cheap shots are relatively minor compared to what happened in amateur days.Hansen complains about cheapshots,Deans complained about McCaw pre match par for the course.Refs get things wrong sometimes there human,Citings are supposed to put it right.When the TMO is bought in for foul play things may change.Thugs? no nation is whiter than white it was a case of get your retaliation in first.Lions 1974 had "RIOT CALL99"in SA.Kel Tremain told a storey of his mate "PINEY"[Sir Colin Meads]after being kicked in the head in a match versus France .Afterwards he took on the whole French Pack.When the Frenchmen he was punching said "Why are you hitting me"Answer "I know it was one of you B*****S!!!
Mostly today its handbags ,gouging is beyond the pale and needs very strict penalties.
Reality is players like RM will carry on what they are doing,and otheres will take cheap shots.So what Ritchie played a whole RWC with a broken foot and played on thru the pain the odd punch or head butt won`t phase him.

emack2 wrote:AWOP please change the tune McCaw does as every great 7 play to the line and just over it.As every decent flanker has for years the days of a good shoeing sadly are gone.The cheap shots are relatively minor compared to what happened in amateur days.Hansen complains about cheapshots,Deans complained about McCaw pre match par for the course.Refs get things wrong sometimes there human,Citings are supposed to put it right.When the TMO is bought in for foul play things may change.Thugs? no nation is whiter than white it was a case of get your retaliation in first.Lions 1974 had "RIOT CALL99"in SA.Kel Tremain told a storey of his mate "PINEY"[Sir Colin Meads]after being kicked in the head in a match versus France .Afterwards he took on the whole French Pack.When the Frenchmen he was punching said "Why are you hitting me"Answer "I know it was one of you B*****S!!!
Mostly today its handbags ,gouging is beyond the pale and needs very strict penalties.
Reality is players like RM will carry on what they are doing,and otheres will take cheap shots.So what Ritchie played a whole RWC with a broken foot and played on thru the pain the odd punch or head butt won`t phase him.

Straw man argument emack. It's not relevant to compare behaviour to the amateur era, it's important to compare it to acceptable conduct. It's unacceptable and needs to be stamped out by the judiciary with reflective bans.

anotherworldofpain wrote:
It's no secret that NZ are invariably given a rough ride during the AIs in terms of acts of foul play. In the past we've seen Dylan Hartley get away with a WWF style elbow drop on McCaw completely unpenalised or cited; conversely we've seen Kevin Mealamu cited for cleaning out English players illegally killing the ball, we've seen Dan Carter cited for tackling a Welsh player rather than letting him score a try and any amount of other nonsense.

I agree on Hartley and Carter, but you can't surely be serious about the Mealamu incident? Doesn't resemble any sort of 'clean out' that I've seen before.

To be fair if Moody was on his feet, it would have been a more standard clean out. It's difficult to clean out a guy who is lying prone on top of the ball.

anotherworldofpain wrote:To be fair if Moody was on his feet, it would have been a more standard clean out. It's difficult to clean out a guy who is lying prone on top of the ball.

So what are you saying AWOP, that unconventional clean outs are occasionally inevitable if someone is lying prone on top of your ball? Curious.

Full Credit wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:To be fair if Moody was on his feet, it would have been a more standard clean out. It's difficult to clean out a guy who is lying prone on top of the ball.

So what are you saying AWOP, that unconventional clean outs are occasionally inevitable if someone is lying prone on top of your ball? Curious.

Very revealing.

I'm saying Mealamu did his best in difficult circumstances.

This is quite different, I must stress, to a deliberate flying forearm in the face, or a knee to the head and heat-butt.

So you are now qualified to adjudicate whether one player is under difficult circumstances and another is not?

Not only is AWOP qualified to comment on the difficulty of the circumstances, he's also qualified to adjudicate on the level of Mealamu's efforts to avoid it. Outstanding assessment.

It's not adjudication it's merely commentary on facts.

Facts as you see them, that's the key difference. To me, the only thing Mealamu did his 'best' to do was to land that headbutt.

So you really see no difference between the Higganbotham incident and the Mealamu incident?

anotherworldofpain wrote:So you really see no difference between the Higganbotham incident and the Mealamu incident?

Well I suppose the main one is that Mealamu may have hurt Moody whereas I don't think a girl guide would have been bothered by Higganbotham. To be fair though Higganbotham wasn't subtle whereas Kev was quite sly.

Of course they're different. Your guy did it under the guise of 'general play' so it can be easily rationalised away and explained. Our numbskull did it in broad daylight.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Incorrect AWOP there is a very real link between Amateur and Professional.Players have had reps you did`nt take liberties with certain players Colin Meads and kevin Skinner are two that come to mind.McCaw does`nt usually retaliate thus risk sending off.Until last year Kaino and Thorn were the NZ enforcers watching his back.They have`nt as yet been replaced
Martin Johnson learned his Rugby in Kings Country people did`nt take liberties with him.

So to conclude Kevin is a god fearing Christian so he was clearing out a ruck legally and was harshly treated, whereas higginbottom in a thug who should be strung up immediately.

AWOP...do you often find yourself standing alone at parties...assuming you get invited of course?

mowgli wrote:AWOP...do you often find yourself standing alone at parties...assuming you get invited of course?

Ad hominem.

anotherworldofpain wrote:So you really see no difference between the Higganbotham incident and the Mealamu incident?

Yep, Mealamu had a running start and went for the back of the head. In other words, a cheap-shot.

Full Credit wrote:Not only is AWOP qualified to comment on the difficulty of the circumstances, he's also qualified to adjudicate on the level of Mealamu's efforts to avoid it. Outstanding assessment.

Pot Hale wrote:

mowgli wrote:AWOP...do you often find yourself standing alone at parties...assuming you get invited of course?

Ad hominem.

well spotted

Pot Hale wrote:

mowgli wrote:AWOP...do you often find yourself standing alone at parties...assuming you get invited of course?

Ad hominem.

Mate if we pointed out every ad hominem on this board that is all tge threads would be

anotherworldofpain wrote:I'm saying Mealamu did his best in difficult circumstances.

This is quite different, I must stress, to a deliberate flying forearm in the face, or a knee to the head and heat-butt.

I agree, it wasn't as bad as Carter's swinging forearm.

I think the results of this Op were entirely intentional.

I don't have a problem with Mealamu's citing, or the call for banning of Mealamu and Umaga following the O'Driscoll tackle. I can see the argument (as a kiwi I can also see the reverse). I'm sure everyone would be happy with consistency. That's the key point here.

The issue with McCaw is as much to do about the continued targeting of his head. there is a trend here, It goes back a few years and goes beyond those incidents that have been cited. I think it is getting to the point where one player is being serially assaulted. It's a similar situation to serial citings by an individual player. It's not a good look. Concerns about his play are a separate issue.

The Carter citing was joke and shines a bright light on inadequacy of the system.

Just to highlight the issue. Here's 60 seconds worth of searching on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ygseQDp_o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXe0_b8l6kI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FQkwYfqDnU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9RYZStDdDI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otz7OUb7f9k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttY0jl1LAFU&feature=fvwrel

There's more out there.

That Rougerie incident was disgusting and he should not be allowed anywhere near a rugby pitch. I found it difficult even watching that again.

Justin Marshall said (of the Greyling incident) "I can understand his frustration. McCaw was in there and probably had no right to continually be disrupting the ball, but that's for the referee to deal with".

That pretty much sums up this whole discussion.

Indeed full credit, leave it to the ref to set the boundaries. If a team is lying all over your ball, do the same to theirs.

Actually, I'd just like to thank other international teams for understanding that the ABs like to play at pace and not blatantly lie all over our ball. It's really thoughtful and considerate. Probably explains why teams get frustrated with McCaw for not returning the favour.

ps. I really hope Gougerie gets his schnozz displaced next time we play them

Full Credit wrote:Justin Marshall said (of the Greyling incident) "I can understand his frustration. McCaw was in there and probably had no right to continually be disrupting the ball, but that's for the referee to deal with".

That pretty much sums up this whole discussion.

Like I said many times before, I fully agree that the type of actions Greyling etc commits is illegal and has no place in the game, however I do not agree completely with "leave it to the referee"

We have seen first hand proof of what happens when referees don't deal with players on the wrong side of the ruck etc.

That is where I firmly beleive (and maybe it is a saffer trait) that you sort it out yourself.

And the manner in which to do it is simple and legal.

You grab the guy by the arms, legs whatever you can get hold of, and pull him out of the ruck, similar to pick up sticks.

If you aren't legally allowed to ruck him, you aren't legally allowed to pot him with a fist, shoulder, knee etc.

Simply remove the offending player from the equation.

How many times do you have to do that in a match before the referee will automatically start watching the player?

I bet not long.


If you leave it up to the referee to see every infringement, sadly you are fooling yourself, it ain't gonna happen, and 80 minutes later you will sit in the changeroom complaining the referee did nothing.

I say take matters into your own hands.

There is a mentality amongst players to make an issue of a guy on the wrong side of the ruck, how many times have we seen a scrumhalf thow his hands in the air gestulating there is a player blocking the ball, hoping he will get a penalty awarded, in the meantime the player has managed to secure the ball and a counter attack comes from it.

It is the mindset of players trying to play for a penalty.

Stuff the penalty, focus on the job at hand and get rid of the obstacle. The mindset must be, we want to score points, the referee isn't seeing it, we'll sort it out ourselves.

A lot of cheap shots against McCaw there, I feel sorry for the guy. It could get worse from now on now that big Brad Thorn isn't there to babysit him.

Bathman_in_London wrote:So to conclude Kevin is a god fearing Christian so he was clearing out a ruck legally and was harshly treated, whereas higginbottom in a thug who should be strung up immediately.

We finally see it the same way Bathman!