Yet another proposal for the regions

It seems to be the season for doom and gloom regarding the regions, their place in the current pro12 set up, their existence and history, etc., etc. Lots of people have opinions, some people have made suggestions, some suggestions have been laughed out of town and some have been met with some support. Here I will make a left field suggestion for your perusal, thought and criticism (constructive only please).

What can we do in Wales to please everyone? Who are these people that we need to please? Well, we need to please the fans, the whole of the welsh rugby supporting public (not just some), the selectors/national governing body (WRU), the owners/board of clubs, our fellow Pro12 partners and their fans. Therefore it's not easy getting it right.

So, here's maybe a ridiculous but perhaps more merit based solution to the current system that currently doesn't seem to get the best out of the players:

The welsh premiership was recently ringfenced to 12 teams, with at least 2 semi pro teams in each 'region' (3 per region would have been better for this!). As a ring fenced league there will always be a guaranteed number of teams per region at this level as far as I can tell.

My suggestion is essentially for a scrapping of the regions and instead a return to clubs. However, in my proposal each region would put a team forward as their pro representative in the Pro 12 and Europe. The rest continue to compete in the welsh prem (which would be just 8 in real terms) and B&I cup. Regional academy players would turn out for the semi pro teams and could step up to the pro team. You'd have the best players representing the pro club and the rest playing in the condensed 8 teams prem which, due to condensing, would go up in standard. You may also get better crowds as people would know exactly who the teams represented and could get behind their town.

Just as an intro I would perhaps keep the current 'teams'/superclubs (no different from what we have, some would argue): Newport, Cardiff, Llanelli, Neath (or would it be Swansea?). But, the whole notion is based on merit. Each team would have a certain amount of time, say 3 or 4 years, and then their position/lease/pro franchise is reviewed. If a team is not meeting their targets then they're served notice and another team from the region gets to apply to take on the franchise. This would be based on a business plan, facilities, potential, etc.

I guess the thought behind this is that pro rugby is not a closed shop to welsh prem teams so they will bust a gut to get the next lease, it encourages a bit more interaction amongst the clubs in the region, but it also encourages the pro teams to perform as they could be demoted if not performing.

In the case of Cardiff, for example, if they're not performing then Ponty get the nod for a 4 year license. For Neath, the Swansea, Bridgend or Aberavon could get the nod.

Lots of issues with this obviously, like no club owner wanting to risk being demoted, etc. Also, would it take a few years for a new lease to get up to speed and the risk being booted out straight away? Would there be a decent flow of the best players or would clubs be greedy and try to stop them going to the pro franchise. Could this work from a pro 12 point of view? Do Irish and Scottish fans care which 4 clubs you face?

As I said at the start, this is probably a crazy notion, but currently we have teams that few people associate with, which are hard to market, where the safety net of guaranteed pro status and no relegation means that players can become complacent, and where there are parts of the country that do not feel that they are being represented. I appreciate that a 'proper' regional model would be underpinned by the 12 premiership clubs, but we haven't got that, we've just got a quasi regional thing going on.

Could this change of internal competition create a stronger product overall?

(P.s. I've had a couple of glasses of wine so I may not be in full control of my thoughts!)

ha!

If the best players are required to play International rugby, HEC rugby for the region and Pro12 rugby for the region, then they will barely (if ever) play in the Premiership, and the Prem will have the younger players and squad players playing a few games in it to prepare them for the Pro12 and HEC - almost exactly like now.

The only difference I can see is that it may negatively effect the regional academies

Not overly enthused that any of your suggestions are designed to improve anything, in fact it is hard to see it as anything but a rebranding of the same concept we already have, minus the strong accademies

I am not WELSH so i feel i meant of missed some thing.

How of what you are suggesting, going to attract more fans to go to the game?

Because it would be club sides as opposed to made up franchises. So, it would be Newport RFC as the pro team in the Gwent region. Those fans that don't support the dragons currently because it's not newport RFC (I know of plenty) may be tempted back. Thus attendances may increase.

Maes. Yes it is exactly that. A rebranding. People have been asking for suggestions of how we can a) increase attendances and b) improve the desire for teams to perform and win. This is my suggestion to answer those questions, a) make the teams represent something, so go back to the clubs that the regions are pretending to be; b) include the risk of demotion to add pressure and make players bust a gut. It will also give the other teams in the region something to play for.

Maes. The academies would stay the same, still representing their region. It's just that instead of sending a regional select team to the Pro 12 and HC (we currently call them ospreys, Scarlets, blues and dragons) we'd nominate a team from the region, e.g. Newport, Cardiff, Neath and Llanelli. Or, after the first period if things aren't going well then it could be Cross Keys, Pontypridd, Llanelli and Neath. The academies would still be regional.

Doesn't mean I'm right, of course. But it is just an idea.

Griff wrote:Because it would be club sides as opposed to made up franchises. So, it would be Newport RFC as the pro team in the Gwent region. Those fans that don't support the dragons currently because it's not newport RFC (I know of plenty) may be tempted back. Thus attendances may increase.

There are probably a hundred fans who don't support the Dragons because its not the Newport rfc they formerly supported. If its more it really isn't much more. Rodney Parade is averaging 6500-7000 mainly all home fans. 100 ish supporters would make no difference. Certainly not worth changing anything for. Attendances would likely not change.

Even worse when the non current regional teams like Cross Keys get a shot, what do they have? A thousand maybe two thousand regular fans?

Griff wrote:Maes. Yes it is exactly that. A rebranding. People have been asking for suggestions of how we can a) increase attendances and b) improve the desire for teams to perform and win. This is my suggestion to answer those questions, a) make the teams represent something, so go back to the clubs that the regions are pretending to be; b) include the risk of demotion to add pressure and make players bust a gut. It will also give the other teams in the region something to play for.

Attendences will increase and decrease related to the success/quality of the team and the economic vibrancy in the area. Promotion and relegation have nothing to do with it. The league was failing as we're its clubs ten years ago. They would be starved if we went back to club rugby. International quality would drop.

Griff wrote:Maes. The academies would stay the same, still representing their region. It's just that instead of sending a regional select team to the Pro 12 and HC (we currently call them ospreys, Scarlets, blues and dragons) we'd nominate a team from the region, e.g. Newport, Cardiff, Neath and Llanelli. Or, after the first period if things aren't going well then it could be Cross Keys, Pontypridd, Llanelli and Neath. The academies would still be regional.

The academies quality would drop too,we have four, plus a WRU elite academy. If we had eight clubs we would be reducing the quality of those four academies by half.

Griff wrote:Doesn't mean I'm right, of course. But it is just an idea.

I applaud the thought and time you put into the argument, I agree with the sentiments of guys like yourself who write these posts suggesting hopefully better alternatives or improvements but you have to understand that regional rugby is very much here to stay.

If you want to find suggestions that could benefit the regions then look at ideas that might make Attendence more affordable to adults, exciting to kids. Look into how we can develop more players and improve their coaching at early stages.

My opinion is that too many Welsh posters on here dedicate a great deal of their time and brainpower to create threads looking at pointless alternatives to what we have.

Their time and intelligence would be far more beneficial looking at what we have and making suggestions that will make it better, more streamlined, more effective, more productive and most importantly more fun to watch for the future.

One question Griff as I probably missed something - but if say you have Cardiff RFC playing as the Pro side in the Pro12/HEC then would they have access to players from the other clubs within the region? If so then I imagine it would be even more difficult for fans to stomach seeing their best players one minute playing in the Black and White of Ponty and the next playing in the Blue and Black of Cardiff in the bigger games (and vice versa if the next season Ponty got the licence).

If not then I imagine it would be difficult for any of the clubs to sustain a competitive squad for all the competitions - especially with the risk of losing the Pro12/HEC income each season.

Just thought - another point, in the Scarlets region there is only 1 stadium up to Professional standards, in the Dragons region I think there's 2. If the Quins got the licence instead of Llanelli, then would they need to play at PyS, or would they need to build their own stadium up to professional level (I think it's called A+ level) - this would more than likely be way too costly for all 8 clubs to do.

Maes, you could sell tickets to the Dragons for £1 and you still wouldn't get 10,000. It's not to do with affordability. It's to do with being boring. Going to the Dragons is a crap night out. Trust me, I've done it for 10 years. We haven't moved with the times. We're trying to entice young people and kids in with the same product as that which appeals to middle age codgers, I.e. just the rugby and a good moan. And when the rugby is crap and everyone is moaning, which it always is these days, then there's nothing else to make it worthwhile going.

I'm living proof of this too. I'm a passionate rugby supporter but I've ditched my season ticket for the first time in 14 years because I'm fed up and bored. Bored of standing in the cold and dark waiting for the game to finish. There's no shout left in me because shouting has got me nowhere. Fed up of paying my money to watch lack luster performances. People are talking with their feet. Unless you've got a magic wand that will make players play more competitively then we have to look at alternative 'tweaks' to make the whole package better. There's nothing on offer at the Dragons apart from the game. Ship them in then ship them out, maybe some heifer from the Ivy Bush pub to sing at half time through a broken PA system. Where's the pre match entertainment (and no, not more cabaret)? Where's the family tented viallages? Where's the mini rugby? Where's the coaching clinics? Hog roasts? Jazz bands? All things that were done pre regional rugby but they can't be bothered to put on now. Well, if they can't be bothered then nor can I. It's all take, take, take and I think fans have had enough of being mugs.

So, there's two main issues for me:
1. The whole supporter experience, which goes hand in hand with,
2. Players giving a damn and trying to put on a show.

Is the answer to no. 2 central contracts? Something appealing for players, that are performance related, and which act as incentive for others players to strive to? A performance carrot, if you will?

On your last point Maes, I find it a bit of a contradiction. Welsh posters should stop suggesting alternatives but should make suggestions for alternatives?! Wtf?

I have to agree Griff I think its doomed to failure,
Would say fans of Neath get behind Swansea if they were the team in the Pro 12, no they would want them to fail, so they could get the place, Neath wouldn't be happy with Swansea calling up and using theere players, to keep a pro 12 spot Neath want. (just using Neath and Swansea as examples but you could use any 2 clubs in a region)

This model would create infighting and jealousy within each region, with each club in the region refusing to assist the other as it wants to get/keep the top spot.

Need a model that promotes harmoney between the clubs in the regions so they are all working together to create a common goal. (easier said than done) but I'll try in a post in a few minutes.

Yeah, Smirnoff there's lots I've failed to consider. On the Ponty blues things I guess a true regional approach to this proposal would be the best players in the region go to the top team. That's how regional rugby is meant to work. If players are happy to stay at Ponty on semi-pro contracts when they could be at the blues on pro contracts then that's their problem. Fans won't be happy. But are Ponty fans happy now that the dragons are picking up their players?

All this suggestion is really is regional rugby as we have it but with a pro team being a club representative on a renewable franchise, rather than a superclub which can't be challenged, changed, promoted or demoted as we currently have. I just thought that may generate more local interest and perhaps competition for a shot at being the regional representative.

On the stadium side of thing, that is a great shout. Not sure. Cross Keys would obviously not be a great arena for showcasing Gwent Rugby! And I doubt their fans would want to travel to Newport. Hmmmm. A non starter really!

Griff for the Dragons, I know in some football clubs they have 'singing sections' this is an area for certain season ticket holders/supporter clubs that are know to be good at getting chants/songs going, and lifting the crowd. Rather than these be in small groups spread out over the ground, (where a small group can try and get sometime going, but if no one else starts it quickly dies) they group them together so the chants/songs catch on quickly in this bigger group and has more chance to spread around the ground.
If RP seams to be a good ground to visit, with this it may make matchday experience more enjoyable.

Cheers Kingshu, but RP is already a pretty vocal ground as it's quite small and intimate. However, I think it's getting less vocal as the fans get more fed up!

What we do need to do however is stop the idiots with the football chants! 'He's only got own arm' and 'He knocked it on', to the tune of famous football chants, really grates! At least they're having fun I suppose...

Griff wrote:Yeah, Smirnoff there's lots I've failed to consider. On the Ponty blues things I guess a true regional approach to this proposal would be the best players in the region go to the top team. That's how regional rugby is meant to work. If players are happy to stay at Ponty on semi-pro contracts when they could be at the blues on pro contracts then that's their problem. Fans won't be happy. But are Ponty fans happy now that the dragons are picking up their players?

All this suggestion is really is regional rugby as we have it but with a pro team being a club representative on a renewable franchise, rather than a superclub which can't be challenged, changed, promoted or demoted as we currently have. I just thought that may generate more local interest and perhaps competition for a shot at being the regional representative.

On the stadium side of thing, that is a great shout. Not sure. Cross Keys would obviously not be a great arena for showcasing Gwent Rugby! And I doubt their fans would want to travel to Newport. Hmmmm. A non starter really!

I see what you mean, but I imagine that Ponty, Carmarthen Quins, Cross Keys would be even more annoyed to see their best players and star players creamed off to play for their nearest rivals each season.
These players would then be signed up on pro contracts, turning out for their rivals, and making it increasingly unlikely that the 'other' teams within the region would ever be able to prove their better than the team with the Pro licence - and if they did someone manage to prove that a semi-pro team shorn of it's best players is better than a pro team with all of those best players, then they'd then need to find the money to 'buy' their best players back and pay pro wages all of a sudden. I think this would turn off lots of fans and lead to a lot of uncertainty - while with the players they wouldn't have much risk, and could play each club off against each other for a pro contract at the end of every season.

Thinking about it, if the season were to be restructured a bit, we could have all the players registered to their clubs (Cardiff, Cross Keys, Carm Quins, Neath etc), and play in the welsh premiership at the start of the season and play each other once, end of Aug til Xmas, then we could have the elite players from the three teams in each region step up to their regional side and play in the Rabo, play each other once, from Jan to March, and the HEC run from April to start of June. That would please fans of clubs and regions, and hopefully encourage people to actively support both. However it would involve restructuring the entire european season, and that would then most likely offend the English and French (And Irish, Scots and Italians) and cause even more agro for everyone.

Maybe centrally contracted squads then? If Cardiff fails then the centrally contracted players are sent to Ponty to take up the mantle?

Ahh, you know what. Forget it! I can't be ar*ed! Lets just leave them as they are.

I think the whole Euro season desperately needs to be restructured, and I like your idea - it's just whether the other nations would want to restructure it to our extent!

Soz to be negative Griff but I just didn't see any of the positives working.

I like SS' idea but we are in a catch 22 where we need more and more games, competitions and internationals to make money to invest in the game and keep the game viable, but we need less internationals and competitions so that the season can be strucutred properly and the players can play in all competitions.

Ok Griff here my attempted solution.

Cardiff got to stand alone for £1 million, and hence for some a team owned and operated by Cardiff RFC, will be just a rebadged Cardiff RFC and they won't support that, no matter what same applys to a lesser extent to other regions.

I also believe that the WRU fund the regions less than IRFU does the provinces and now SRU the districts, partly because they would be putting money into region year on year, but have little control over them, and no say in thier running. I think if the WRU had a say in all they would be more willing to fund them.

So my solution....
Domestic Rugby is reorginised, you have the Welsh Prem, below that you have 4 leagues. Dragons League, Scarlets league, Ospreys League and Blues League. Each League has divisions.
This way each club will identify better with their region as the region represents thier league, it also cuts down on travel for clubs and has more derbies. When two regions play it creates a sense of its the best in our league v the best in your league.

Now the Pro sides, for about £1 million (about same as Cardiff paid to stand alone 10 years ago,) the WRU can buy a 49% share in each region (Dragons they would sell back 1%). This would give all the regions a cash boost make and WRU more likley to invest rather than just give money as before.

For each region a board of directors say 5 is created two seats for current owner (Cardiff/Llanelli/Newport, one each Neath/Swansea) one seat WRU, and two seats to representives of all the other clubs in the region.

These regional boards have 2 jobs, the first is the running of the regional team, appointing coaches, directors etc etc, acamady etc etc, The second is the regional League

The funds that the WRU normally grants the clubs all the way down and the Pro team is granted to the board, with additions they give for ground improvment etc etc.

This board then assigns the clubs money on its own critea (certain amount for club per league, promotion, ground improvements) and the running of the its Pro team.

This in my opinion would create a regional feel to the Pro teams, the control of them would not be with one club but all clubs in the region having a voice. The WRU may be more inclinded to Invest rather than give money to the regions.

Kingshu, at first read that sounds like a nice plan. Tying to get the clubs in a region in harmony is a big thing for me too. I'll give it some more consideration (off to a meeting now) and come back with a better answer.

I like the idea of a regional league below the pro team. We sort of have it at much lower levels to reduce travel, e.g. Division 5 east and west, but maybe regional leagues may be a way of artificially growing regional boundaries and passion for the region. The swalec cup could start out in separate regions and then come back for the semis??? Played at the MS maybe?

My dream in terms of regional rugby has always been for it to be club led in terms of having the best players being part of a club first and foremost, and then if they're good enough, the cream of the crop, then they get picked up by the elite team that represents those clubs across a region. This is a bit of a NZ model I suppose. We don't have this in Wales unfortunately as we have competition between regions and clubs rather than a clear pathway structure. If we'd started the regional concept with north, south, east, west then we may have been able to do this, i.e. the aspiration for players in Newport, Ebbw Vale, Cross Keys, Bedwas would be to represent east Wales. However, as discussed time and time again the clubs often see the Dragons as Newport and thus that is competition rather than the step up, unfortunately.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Soz to be negative Griff but I just didn't see any of the positives working.

I like SS' idea but we are in a catch 22 where we need more and more games, competitions and internationals to make money to invest in the game and keep the game viable, but we need less internationals and competitions so that the season can be strucutred properly and the players can play in all competitions.

No, no, not at all Smirnoff. You weren't really negative, just pointing out some of the problems in a constructive way! Now MaestegMafia, that was negative!