Inoke Male says England are vultures..

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England are vultures - Fiji coach

Www.planetrugby.com 26th October 2012 13:37


Fiji coach Inoke Male has slammed England, France, Australia and New Zealand for "poaching" youngsters from the Pacific Island nations.

Male comments come in the wake of England naming New Zealand-born Saracens prop Mako Vunipola, the son of former Tongan international Fe'ao Vunipola, in their squad for the November internationals where he will join Manu Tuilagi, whose elder brothers have played for Samoa.

"There are several players not available to us for this tour because they want to play for other countries," Male told the Times ahead of Fiji's clash with England at Twickenham on November 10.

"Young players now want to pursue options for other countries rather than coming on tour which is not a good sign.

"We have got a lot of problems caused by European countries, especially France and England, who have taken some of our players through their academies when they were young.

"England and France have got a lot of players to pick from already and, as a small country, for our players to be poached from us is not acceptable.

"There is one very talented player we wanted to select who went to an English academy and he is now 16-years-old and has opted to play for England.

"It is very obvious what is happening. If you go to the secondary school championships you will see scouts from Australia, New Zealand and England trying to find your players who want to go overseas. They are taking our young players like vultures.

"I will not tell you the specific players but I know of players who get invited to the UK when they are 14," added the Fiji coach.

"Now as 17-year-olds they are opting to play for England. That means everybody here who is young wants to play for England.

"As a good player that's what they choose and we respect that but it is mainly because of the money. That's what happened when boys are given the option. We need the IRB to stop this rule or change it."

There you go Geordie. both eyes open and I couldn't agree more with you - Now watch out for those Mackems! strange fellas them

Another issue is say you are from Gambia or Papua New Guinea. Both countries play rugby but nowhere near tge level of Fiji never mind the big 3. You are good enough to play for Australia or South Africa and qualify on residency. You fit in with the groups there because big countries like these have strong culturally identifying sub groups that are both culturally similar and different to the macroculture of the larger country. You are proud of your original country but at the same time you have gotten a lot from your new country and you can identify, to differing degrees, with both. If you pick the smaller country, your talent is going unfulfilled. Should they have to pick their original country?

This is an ethical debate, albeit a specialised, small and not that significant one in the large scheme of things, though still relevant to the livelihood of many (and the pay of people playing rugby in T14 vs Fiji is surely as big a moral factor as which country they represent? Is a man's ability to make a good rather than a meagre and uncertain living for his family less important than National values in a multicultural and interactive age? Is it morally acceptable to put our preconceptions of patriotism above the influence such decision will have on people's careers and their ability to provide for their family after these careers have ended?) As such it is unlikely that there is a correct answer or a solution that is even nearly satisfactory to the majority. However, the acceptance that a solution may be impossible shouldn't detract from yhe value of seeking one just in case.

I'd have a residency qualification period of 7 years for any immigrant.

I'd also have a "residency" qualification of three years for everyone else with ancestry. This three year period could be served as actual residency or from the time the player first represented his country at junior or 'A' level.

For countries like Fiji who inevitably want to select players who have never lived in their country they would have to select a player for an underage, sevens or A side and then wait three years for them to be available for selection to the full Test side.

The Great Aukster wrote:
For countries like Fiji who inevitably want to select players who have never lived in their country they would have to select a player for an underage, sevens or A side and then wait three years for them to be available for selection to the full Test side.

But I've just been informed a few posts back that with a parent then residency rules does not apply, and I agree, should not.

The Great Aukster wrote:I'd have a residency qualification period of 7 years for any immigrant.

I'd also have a "residency" qualification of three years for everyone else with ancestry. This three year period could be served as actual residency or from the time the player first represented his country at junior or 'A' level.

For countries like Fiji who inevitably want to select players who have never lived in their country they would have to select a player for an underage, sevens or A side and then wait three years for them to be available for selection to the full Test side.

How about reduce peiod for people who come over as teenagers (e.g. Tuilagi)?

Also - 7 years would be a bit unfair for people from non-rugby countries. People like Visser might never get a chance to play top-flight international rugby.

Alex_Germany wrote:

Also - 7 years would be a bit unfair for people from non-rugby countries. People like Visser might never get a chance to play top-flight international rugby.

I don't understand how you would see a 7 year residency rule as being particularly tough on people from non-rugby countries when it would be put in place to actively do just that (make things tougher) for players from any external country, rugby playing or non-rugby playing. Why should a person from a non-rugby playing country get favourable status?

Personally I want to see the best rugby players playing rugby, and if guys from fringe nations in particular can find a more mainstream team and commit themselves fully to it then I cant see the problem

I think that players should have some genuine link to the country they wish to represent - at the very least the appropriate citizenship. With no rules we are in danger of just being giant franchises.

Some of the suggestions being bandied about though risk creating stateless players and at times sound too much like a BNP manifesto.

Thats fine lost in Wales...but he must still go through the 7 year + residency criteria...thats the way it should be. If a National team is prepared to take a chance they can pay for him to stay with a club team and see how he goes...isnt this in "Project Player" areas....

No special treatment...

what's a stateless player?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Though when you consider that assorted Pacific Islander teams have "lost" potential players like Faletau, both Vunipolas, Manu Tuilagi, the New Zealander of PI heritage etc you can see why they are frustrated ay the situation. But te overall lifestyle offered by these big Western Countries can't be competed with and what do they do? Turn away eligible immigrants because they are too good at rugby? Make them feel isolated once they are there so their kids don't want to play for their new country? Actively poaching is bad but in the examples
I've seen this hasn't been what has happened

Make the residency rule something like 10 years instead of 3 to prevent players who are scouted and signed as young teenagers becoming eligible aged 18/19.

Alex_Germany wrote:How about reduce peiod for people who come over as teenagers (e.g. Tuilagi)?

Also - 7 years would be a bit unfair for people from non-rugby countries. People like Visser might never get a chance to play top-flight international rugby.

But thats the problem. Big clubs are scouting players younger and younger, as teenagers.

From www.planetrugby.com

Fijians paid to miss World Cup?
06th November 2012 15:03


Former Racing Métro backs coach Simon Mannix has alleged that Fijians at the Parisian club were paid to be unavailable for the 2011 World Cup so they could play in the Top 14 instead.

Clubs are required to release players during international windows and for major tournaments such as the World Cup and IRB Regulation 9 forbids clubs from offering players incentives, either through "contract or conduct", to turn down a national call up.

Former All Black fly-half and current Munster backs coach Mannix, who was part of the Racing staff from 2006 until he was fired last November, has accused the big-spending French club of using its deep pockets to keep some players in Paris last year.

"Racing Métro had Fijians who declined to go to the World Cup ... because the club gave them a cheque if they stayed here [in Paris]," Mannix told The Independent.

Sireli Bobo and Jone Qovu cited "personal reasons" while Josh Matavesi (now at Worcester) said he wanted to focus on club commitments when they declined to play for Fiji in the 2011 Pacific Nations Cup, effectively ruling themselves out of World Cup selection.

The Racing Métro President Jacky Lorenzetti has denied the club made any illegal payments or broke any regulations.

"(The accusations) make me laugh, especially coming from Simon Mannix. Nothing else to add," Lorenzetti told French site Rugbyrama.

Northampton lock Samu Manoa chose to play in the Premiership rather than with the USA Eagles at the 2011 World Cup although Saints insist it was the player's personal choice.

The 2015 World Cup will once again overlap with European domestic leagues and the tournament risks being devalued should players from cash-strapped teams like Fiji, Tonga and Samoa be persuaded to rather feature for their clubs.

While critics suggest the IRB have not done enough to enforce Regulation 9 the global governing body insists it can only take action if it receives a complaint.

"The IRB can only act on player release issues if requested to do so by a union or if it is provided with credible evidence that would allow it to pursue its own enquiry," read an IRB statement.

Former Fiji Fly-half Nicky Little, who has played for clubs in five European countries, said the practice was not new.

"For many seasons, European and UK-based Islanders have either been blackmailed not to play for their countries, or had pay docked when they were with their national teams," Little, who represented Fiji in four World Cups, told The Independent.

Chief executive of the International Rugby Players' Association told the newspaper that the World Cup would be worse off if the practise was allowed to continue.

"We have been made aware of various situations where this kind of thing has happened but the players concerned haven't wanted to take it to the next level," said Nichol.

"If clubs can circumnavigate regulation nine, they will - and international rugby is the worse for it."

HERSH wrote:Toby Faletau

Is this the same Toby Faletau who moved to Wales as a small child and grew up in Wales watching his father play club rugby in Wales?

Hardly in the same realm as....

Vainikolo
Flutey
Hape
Botha (strong English name)
Hartley
Fourie

I can't be bothered to continue too many SH mercenaries.

At least the foreign born Welsh lads have a connection to Wales that stretches beyond their bank account.

Well...its nothing new...

BUT i can see the argument for Both sides.

Players want to represent their countries...
Clubs pay for the services of those players and could miss them for a number of games....

Whats the right answer?

Notch wrote:

Alex_Germany wrote:How about reduce peiod for people who come over as teenagers (e.g. Tuilagi)?

Also - 7 years would be a bit unfair for people from non-rugby countries. People like Visser might never get a chance to play top-flight international rugby.

But thats the problem. Big clubs are scouting players younger and younger, as teenagers.

But are they, though?

Male seems to think so, but if it's been going on for more than a couple of years you'd expect the England Age-grade teams to be bulging with PI's, which they're not. The England Regional Academies do present a pathway for players from their teens, but they're only for EQ youngsters and recruit from within their defined catchment areas.

Tuilagi, Vunipola and Faletau were not scouted directly, it was their fathers/brothers who were recruited as players that brought them to UK. It's this 2nd generation of dual-qualified players, which is only going to increase and who are settled in UK, France and Ireland, that may present ethical challenges.

RogerLewis wrote:

HERSH wrote:Toby Faletau

Is this the same Toby Faletau who moved to Wales as a small child and grew up in Wales watching his father play club rugby in Wales?

Hardly in the same realm as....

Vainikolo
Flutey
Hape
Botha (strong English name)
Hartley English Mother, Here since about 16yo.
Fourie

I can't be bothered to continue too many SH mercenaries.

At least the foreign born Welsh lads have a connection to Wales that stretches beyond their bank account.

Yawn here we go again.

What links did Shane Howarth have? Hal Luscumbe, Cockbain, etc etc

Look every team have their players who the actual fans have NOT wanted to see play.

Besides Hartley has an English parent and has been here since he was about 16.

[quote="GeordieFalcon"]

RogerLewis wrote:

HERSH wrote:Toby Faletau

Is this the same Toby Faletau who moved to Wales as a small child and grew up in Wales watching his father play club rugby in Wales?

Hardly in the same realm as....

Vainikolo
Flutey
Hape
Botha (strong English name)
Hartley English Mother, Here since about 16yo.
Fourie

I can't be bothered to continue too many SH mercenaries.

At least the foreign born Welsh lads have a connection to Wales that stretches beyond their bank account.[/quote

Yawn here we go again.

What links did Shane Howarth have? Hal Luscumbe, Cockbain, etc etc

Look every team have their players who the actual fans have NOT wanted to see play.

Besides Hartley has an English parent and has been here since he was about 16.

Are you really going to respond to me with players who played for Wales in the last millennium?!

At least give me some examples of players THIS side of the stone age.

And anothe thread descends into wales v england

This is where we need the ?



Look, as long as the players are playing for the country they want to, for whatever reason, and put their professional best in, let's just let them get on with it? International rugby will not go the way of soccer internationals, there'll still be pride and passion. club rugby probably will have the higher standards, but international rugby, for me, has the passion, and for now, a better intensisty.

This will rumble on and on until the IRB changes the rules, and the same protanganists will spout the same names. Yawn...

Yes England have used this to field "foriegn players" but lest we forget Roger lewis,bristol taff,rhonddasmackhead, westernosprey whatever....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grannygate#Rugby_union

LondonTiger wrote:And anothe thread descends into wales v england

And GUESS who started it? Your reliable Mr HERSH. The WUM in chief who never gets banned.

RogerLewis wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:And anothe thread descends into wales v england

And GUESS who started it? Your reliable Mr HERSH. The WUM in chief who never gets banned.

What do you mean never. He served a ban a couple of weeks back, and has had several over the past year or 2.

At least he serves them rather than setting up a new account to weasel around being banned.


Personally I'm in favour of tightening up the regs a little - get rid of grandparent qualification, and increase residency to 5 years. And while we're at it, the same rule should apply to international coaches. They have at least as much influence as any single player.

Just to say also that checking back over this thread Hersh does mention Toby 1st off but then later says that both Toby and Manu have a good case to be doing what they are.

The bad stuff really kicked off with Morgannwg and then later on with RogerLewis. I am not denying the fact that for some seeing Hersh anywhere near a thread can be seen as a provocation.

Maybe Male needs to consider the possibility that some players dont want to play for Fiji, he should have a talk to Isa Nacewa.

HERSH brings Wales and Ospreys into every thread he comments on

Even if it's a discussion on Galway under 9's, he'll find a way to flip it to a Wales or Ospreys dig lol.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Maybe Male needs to consider the possibility that some players dont want to play for Fiji, he should have a talk to Isa Nacewa.

Ouch

Ok RogerLewis. Please quote something in this whole thread where Hersh mentions Wales or the Orsplays.

He did mention Toby Faletau - a player of PI background who grew up in Wales and plays for a team other than the Ospreys. He then points out

HERSH wrote:Male has a point but he should raise it with the IRB, and anyway Faletau and Manu have lived and played most of their rugby in Britain so I don't have a problem with them choosing to play for Wales & England.

Keep digging please

Nacewa...now there's another interesting one on the 'grandmother' link.

He now has I think two Irish kids....so he qualifies by the 'Daddy' rule!

SecretFly wrote:Nacewa...now there's another interesting one on the 'grandmother' link.

He now has I think two Irish kids....so he qualifies by the 'Daddy' rule!

Or is this a case of selective breeding and planning for the future?

Could be, could be... but let's not mention Hitler on a rugby thread

Scotland need to get looking at the PIs, they're ripe for the picking!

SecretFly wrote:Nacewa...now there's another interesting one on the 'grandmother' link.

He now has I think two Irish kids....so he qualifies by the 'Daddy' rule!

So those kids would qualify to play for New Zealand then. when will this poaching ever end.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Nacewa...now there's another interesting one on the 'grandmother' link.

He now has I think two Irish kids....so he qualifies by the 'Daddy' rule!

So those kids would qualify to play for New Zealand then. when will this poaching ever end.

NZ, Fiji and Ireland, possibly more but I don't know the heritage of Mrs Nacewa. So, should we legislate to limit the national choices of Nacewa Jrs, or leave it up to him/her?

I think sometimes, sadly, we (in the UK and Ireland) only tend to really notice these sort of things when we're presented with those that are different and who stand out. Perhaps it happens elsewhere in the world too, but this forum is my main reference for fans views. If Toby Faletau had been called Toby Smith, a lad who'd rocked up in Wales from abroad at the age of 8 (like Faletau did) then no one would have batted an eyelid. The fact he looks a bit different and his name stands out makes him and Wales targets for these poaching comments. Similarly, in England if a player named Vunipola or Botha or first name Schalk turns up then we're like blood hounds onto their parentage, heritage, residency, etc. However, players with UK/Ireland features (looks and/or name) can sneak under the radar. A good example of this is Aaron Jarvis, poached by Wales from Bath recently because of a grandmother, poaching in the classic sense as he was identified because of his grandparent and brought over by the ospreys to become a project player. But, because his name doesn't stand out, or his looks don't make him look 'foreign', he's gone pretty much under the radar. If he'd been called Bakkies Van Der Westhuizen (sp.) then the poaching crowd would have been onto us from day one. Loads of other examples of this too.

I'm not saying that we're racist or xenophobic or anything like that, just that we're quick to jump on players and ask questions based on looks and names in the first instance when in fact they're often more Welsh/English/Scottish/Irish than some of those we sneak in with UK or Irish 'characteristics'. It's a shame the world works that way.

Funnily enough, the main focus of this article is Mako Vunipola. I actually know his dad Vinnie from years back through a friend. He played for Pontypridd and Ebbw Vale and was/is in the construction and surveying industry. That he played rugby in Wales in the late 90's shows how long he's been here and how 'English' his son is (by residency it must be about 13 years) yet it's his name that makes him stick out as being poached, unfortunately.

I have been reading this thread with interest, and I have very strong views, but just for my own personal view towards this, let me just say this, I am Welsh, I do not see myself as anything else, I was born here, I have grown up here and I am raising a family here, there is nothing that would make me think that I am anything else, and this is where I start thinking, just because the Vainikolo's and the Hape's and the Flutey's (I know I have only stated English ones, but at the moment they are the only one's until Visser is capped by the Scots) have choosen to represent England, do they consider themselves English ? I bet you my mortgage that they don't and they can say what they like, if their own native countries came knocking they would have chosen them in a heartbeat. It is different if a player has grown up in a country as they have an affiliation with it, they understand the history and the ethics of the country they grew up in, North, Tuilagi, the Armitage brothers, Ronan O'Gara, Heaslip, Shaw. These are all players who were not born in the country they grew up in but have lived there all their life and know no other culture like their "own". For me, you can represent any country you like if it is within the rules, but lets not take people for mugs, they are not English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish, they are just qualified to represent them. My mother was born in England, to an English mother and a Welsh farther, she moved to Wales when she was one year old if I chose I could be "English" on that ruling, where is the sense of belonging ?where is the pride in your nationality ? I am Welsh and I would only want to play for Wales, I am passionate about my nationality as I am about my country, I will cheer Wales on in a game of pitch and toss if they were playing it, I just cannot understand for the life of me how a person in their mid twenties can change their alleigence at a drop of a hat, but as I have never been put in that position I do not know how strong the pull of an extra few quid is to the cost of your nationality, this argument will rumble on for years, but, I for one will never understand it, and until the powers to be do something about it, mercs will always chase the coin over their hearts, and this really does leave me with a very, very heavy heart.

Griff I agree with you, however that applies only to us lunatics on a rugby blogsite, hopefully the wise men of the IRB dont think down those same thought processes that you mention.

What concerns me is that over the last couple of decades International air travel has become more affordable and accessable to all of us around the globe, and the IRB do not appear to be reacting to consequences, which we all here can see.

Auckland, another example is one of your guys actually! I think NZ have a young lad with a welsh sounding name. As soon as we (on here and friends elsewhere) saw his name the first thing we did was assume he'd been poached! I think his first name or surname is Llewellyn which is a very welsh name. Think I read the he'd come over when he was young. If he was welsh but called Zac Smith, or something similar, we wouldn't have even noticed!

EDIT: Rhys Llewellyn is his name. Very welsh name, which is what alerted us to the blantant poaching

aucklandlaurie wrote:What concerns me is that over the last couple of decades International air travel has become more affordable and accessable to all of us around the globe, and the IRB do not appear to be reacting to consequences, which we all here can see.

I would say flight costs are one of the incredibly small reasons for players of poorer nations playing for the wealthier ones. It is a financial decision.

Griff, and heres an even better example, I read the first line of your last post, and immmediately presumed you were talking about Gareth Anscombe, (who by the way has Welsh heritage and travels on a UK passport)....

maestegmafia wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What concerns me is that over the last couple of decades International air travel has become more affordable and accessable to all of us around the globe, and the IRB do not appear to be reacting to consequences, which we all here can see.

I would say flight costs are one of the incredibly small reasons for players of poorer nations playing for the wealthier ones. It is a financial decision.

Maesteg, what I was getting at was, that as people travel and play more in other countries the opportunity to play for another country arises, the cheap/available air travel comes first.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Griff, and heres an even better example, I read the first line of your last post, and immmediately presumed you were talking about Gareth Anscombe, (who by the way has Welsh heritage and travels on a UK passport)....

Ah yes, didn't think of him. Same name as my father! Good strong welsh name that!

Are you really going to respond to me with players who played for Wales in the last millennium?!

At least give me some examples of players THIS side of the stone age.

Erm..Cockbain and Luscumbe are reasonably recent...but i was merely pointing out that apparent whiter than white Wales are just as guilty. But you can have Adrian Jarvis who will most likley get his cap in these AI's..with Andries Pretorius and Mike Paterson not far behind.....

And anothe thread descends into wales v england

LT, Sadly from the moment i saw this OP from a Welshman i knew it was only going one way and i bit....

beshocked wrote:Maestegmafia I don't think you can point the finger when there is yet another English born player in the Welsh squad - Aaron Jarvis

This goes with North,Lydiate,Cuthbert,A.Shingler,J.Davies and Charteris. Warburton is half English but born in Wales.

Wales tried to get Morgan too but he chose England.

Every single side is guilty of picking players that aren't strictly their own nationality.

Italy with Gower and Burton for example.

Scotland with Visser and Maitland.

South Africa with the beast etc.

Ireland are bringing in the likes of Strauss etc.

Are you seriously comparing the "poaching" situation in SA with that of The European countries?

Which poaching in SA Biltong?

I don't know Griff, that is what I am trying to establish from. My learned friend Beschocked.

Well said Male
England as a nation for centuries have enjoyed taking what isn't theirs

beshocked wrote:Maestegmafia I don't think you can point the finger when there is yet another English born player in the Welsh squad - Aaron Jarvis

BS
You've got the wrong end of the stick. This thread is exploiting poorer nations. Not players born in one playing for another.

The Fijian coach has not accused any nations other than England, France, Australia and New Zealand of poaching young Fijian players.

How about a player can play for their country of birth from 18 but can only play for the country they've moved to after three years starting from 18. Basically giving their birth country a chance to make an approach and the youngster can choose either an early Int career or they can hold out for the country they're in.

A simplified rule would be that you can't play for a nation if you are only living there on a work/study permit.