Argentina Emerge

Well, many people have speculated that involvement in the worlds showpiece rugby tournament on an annual basis would propel Argentina from the plucky and emotionaly charged thorn in the world cup aspirations of so many contenders into an international powerhouse, completing a quartet of dominant South Hemisphere teams, with clear water back to the rest of the world.

But who could have suspected it would happen in just one season?

As if the bottom placed and winless Rugby Championship side comfortably dispatching the 6N Grandslam winners at home wasn't a terrifying prospect for those north of the equator, there is also the spectre of the Welsh who are the most attacking minded of the 6N constituents were held tryless for 80 minutes and scoreless in the second 40 minutes.

Pre match talk was of the dangers of the physicality of the welsh back line and the threat they pose up front. The reverse was true as the abbrasive and physical Pumas injured their counterparts and slowly ground their defense into the ground. Argentina dominated the breakdown, winning three times as many turn overs, humbled the Welsh scrum, caused such psychological damage at the lineout that Wales began to throw squint and lost a crucial late lineout chance in the Argentina 22.

Argentina quadrupled the number of offloads made by Wales and this facet was vital in the construction of their two scintilating backline tries.


It would be easy to point to the apparent lack of ambition, execution, patience or commitment of the Welsh team today but in reality Argentina harried their attack, consistently knocked back their big strike runners and swarmed into the breakdown. Wales were put under an immense amount of pressure and smothered out of the game by a relentless Argentina who have upped their game pace 200% since the last RWC.

The Pumas hardly needed to crank up their reknowned trademark driving lineout, and then showed the composure Wales had lacked in their Australian tour to wind the clock down for a famous victory possibly heralding in the new era of the SH IRB rankings full house.

Steady on AWOP.

A good Argentina win and they are truly part of international rugby now with a place in a tournament of note and it appears they have already benefited from that.

England looked sharp against Fiji though and will go into their games with the big SH 3 with confidence and a selection dilemma worth having.

Let's just say Argentina deserved their win tonight and if they become a regular consistent force in world rugby then international rugby is all the better for it. But I think we shouldn't judge Wales on one bad performance. Let's see what their reaction is against Samoa, Australia and New Zealand. See if their recently improved mental strength in the 6N gives them some fight.

I'm not pointing the finger at Wales Kia! I thought they were patient and stuck to their game plan. In recent years it's relied on the crash ball up the middle and pace and size out wide.

I had a wry grin as the prematch talk was off "running over" the Argentinians in the midfield with their big Welsh runners. If anyone had watched the RC they would already know the Pumas midfield defense is watertight.

I was impressed by the Pumas fitness and composure too. They seem to have learned their lessons from the RC and showed a very professional ability to close the game out when they went 14 points clear.

The close off-loading skills we'd already seen from Argentina looked honed and they have an astute understanding of when to set up a new phase and when to push the pass.

Welsh fans should not be dispondent, they were beaten by a very very good team today.

Eh.... Argentina have won games before this.

They drew with South Africa and have beaten Ireland on 5 separate occasions. They've learned their rugby in NH, and it showed today in how they managed the game. Sanchez looks like a very good prospect for the Pumas. My man of the match despite Lobbe's heroics.

Disagree Pot Hale. We saw the new style of Argentinian rugby today. Gone was the ponderous work behind the ruck, the pointless kicking, the cynicism and lack of discipline. No, I think they've left their bad habits behind and truely joined the rugby elite nations. For example, I feared they would struggle with the 5second law but on the contrary they upped the pace early on, looked to tap and go from penalties and free kicks and ultimately seemed to tire out the Welsh.

JFL before the game they'd learned the pace and intensity of the RC and they certainly brought that today, with two top drawer tries that any of the SANZAR sides would've been proud of.

anotherworldofpain your the same age as me, and really you should realise that Argentina emerged as a true rugby nation in 1995 when they impressed the World with their power and scrummaging at the World Cup.

Clearly the experience of playing in the new 4 Nations has helped them no end, as well as being battle hardened, 4 short weeks ago Argentina were ending their championship then their straight into a tour of Europe.

Wales on the other hand have not played together for 5 months. Clearly Wales were going to be rusty and Argentina blew us off the park. Good for them, but every Welshman knows our lads can do so much better than that, were always slow starters, I think the commentry team said Wales have never won their first November game in any series for 10 years. Most of the Welsh boys have only had a couple of games of rugby since the season started and weren't up to scratch today.

Can't argue with your assessment there AWOP. But still plenty of rugby to come and I don't think there's daylight between the NH and SH.

Argentina have been doing this for years whats the big deal?

I think roughly 48% of us (Bell Ends apparently) on 606v2 voted for Argentina to win on another thread.

Shifty wrote:anotherworldofpain your the same age as me, and really you should realise that Argentina emerged as a true rugby nation in 1995 when they impressed the World with their power and scrummaging at the World Cup.

Clearly the experience of playing in the new 4 Nations has helped them no end, as well as being battle hardened, 4 short weeks ago Argentina were ending their championship then their straight into a tour of Europe.

Wales on the other hand have not played together for 5 months. Clearly Wales were going to be rusty and Argentina blew us off the park. Good for them, but every Welshman knows our lads can do so much better than that, were always slow starters, I think the commentry team said Wales have never won their first November game in any series for 10 years. Most of the Welsh boys have only had a couple of games of rugby since the season started and weren't up to scratch today.

Today wasn't about power and scrummaging Shifty. It was about smothering Wales out of the game, keeping the pressure on, upping the tempo and using the close quarters off load. It was great ball management in tough conditions, astute kicking and great composure to never allow Wales a sniff and then the ruthless use of the drop goal to keep the score ticking over. Absolute master class in winning rugby from the Pumas, and it was gratifying to watch. Certainly can see the unfluence Sir Graham Henry has had on them and the lessons they've learned from the initial baptism in the RC.

Unfluence. You even write like a Kiwi mate.

No doubt there'll be the usual suspects claiming that Argentinas win today is all to do with their participation in the 4N.

Their previous performances in the World Cup say otherwise.

Hopefully they continue to do well this Autumn series.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Well, many people have speculated that involvement in the worlds showpiece rugby tournament on an annual basis would propel Argentina from the plucky and emotionaly charged thorn in the world cup aspirations of so many contenders into an international powerhouse, completing a quartet of dominant South Hemisphere teams, with clear water back to the rest of the world.

But who could have suspected it would happen in just one season?

As if the bottom placed and winless Rugby Championship side comfortably dispatching the 6N Grandslam winners at home wasn't a terrifying prospect for those north of the equator, there is also the spectre of the Welsh who are the most attacking minded of the 6N constituents were held tryless for 80 minutes and scoreless in the second 40 minutes.

Pre match talk was of the dangers of the physicality of the welsh back line and the threat they pose up front. The reverse was true as the abbrasive and physical Pumas injured their counterparts and slowly ground their defense into the ground. Argentina dominated the breakdown, winning three times as many turn overs, humbled the Welsh scrum, caused such psychological damage at the lineout that Wales began to throw squint and lost a crucial late lineout chance in the Argentina 22.

Argentina quadrupled the number of offloads made by Wales and this facet was vital in the construction of their two scintilating backline tries.


It would be easy to point to the apparent lack of ambition, execution, patience or commitment of the Welsh team today but in reality Argentina harried their attack, consistently knocked back their big strike runners and swarmed into the breakdown. Wales were put under an immense amount of pressure and smothered out of the game by a relentless Argentina who have upped their game pace 200% since the last RWC.

The Pumas hardly needed to crank up their reknowned trademark driving lineout, and then showed the composure Wales had lacked in their Australian tour to wind the clock down for a famous victory possibly heralding in the new era of the SH IRB rankings full house.

Great post.
I totally agree with your words.
Proud of the Argentine team.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Today wasn't about power and scrummaging Shifty. It was about smothering Wales out of the game, keeping the pressure on, upping the tempo and using the close quarters off load. It was great ball management in tough conditions, astute kicking and great composure to never allow Wales a sniff and then the ruthless use of the drop goal to keep the score ticking over. Absolute master class in winning rugby from the Pumas, and it was gratifying to watch. Certainly can see the unfluence Sir Graham Henry has had on them and the lessons they've learned from the initial baptism in the RC.

They played to the strengths of their game and beat an under cooked Wales. But giving the credit to Graham Henry is really far fetched, lol.

There is a marked improvement in their play resulting from regular rugby particularly in the RC.

Their game has evolved ten fold since the last WC and is now not just about a scrum, maul and kick / chase.

Long may their improvement continue it's great for the game and a matter of time until they get one over the Boks etc

Shifty wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Today wasn't about power and scrummaging Shifty. It was about smothering Wales out of the game, keeping the pressure on, upping the tempo and using the close quarters off load. It was great ball management in tough conditions, astute kicking and great composure to never allow Wales a sniff and then the ruthless use of the drop goal to keep the score ticking over. Absolute master class in winning rugby from the Pumas, and it was gratifying to watch. Certainly can see the unfluence Sir Graham Henry has had on them and the lessons they've learned from the initial baptism in the RC.

They played to the strengths of their game and beat an under cooked Wales. But giving the credit to Graham Henry is really far fetched, lol.

We differ on opinion here shifty. It's a tired and lame old excuse that "rust" or "being undercooked" is to blame. We heard the same excuses in the defeat to Australia, and two weeks later they were supposedly too tired. The NH season is well in swing and supposedly the SH sides are exhausted, the opposite seemed to be true today. Argentina struggle to get access to first choice players due to club commitments that haven't been ironed out and regularly play varied combinators and manage to make it work. I agree that nobody should right of Wales on the strength of that performance, Argentina were simply very effective and clearly have benefited from the introduction of the wisdom and tutorage of the world cup winning Henry. I don't see how that is a contentious point.

Lack of game time, lack of preparation has limited Argentina for the last decade or so. Only 6 games a season previous except for World Cup years (when they tend to do better, surprisingly). This was their 10th game this year I think. Much more prepared and match fit as a squad. I expect, and hope, that this will continue and they continue to grow. So far it's a one off. Italy won their first game of the 6 nations.

I think a similar thing could happen with Samoa if they had more time together and more games.

Well, Warburton's talk of a clean sweep for the AIs is Toast now. He needs to start playing a good game rather than talking a good game.

For me, the most important thing that lets this game is that it shows that Argentina has enough players to keep the level with many second choice players.

Whatever the excuses it remains that the RC worst team trounced te 6N's best.

While Wales may be undercooked it could be argued that Argentina was fatigued etc. No need to mention that Wales were playing at home right?

Argentina has seriously arrived and results like today will become more common. Rest assured, next RC, one of AUS, NZ or SA will be on the receiving end.

"Whatever the excuses it remains that the RC worst team trounced te 6N's best."

I sincerely hope they are NOT the 'best' the NH has to offer. They may have won the 6Ns last time but that was then and this is now.

I see what you've done here pain. When Wales win, they are the best side in the world. Now that Arg have beaten Wales, they have taken up the mantle.

"completing a quartet of dominant South Hemisphere teams, with clear water back to the rest of the world"

Lets wait until the result of the ireland v bok game before we start trumpeting that kind of crap shall we?

Meh.......Arg have been a tough side for a long time now.....wales have been an improving side but lacking in forwards for a good few years too....not much gonna change......

NH/SH.....not a grest deal in it, 'cept for those pesky kiwi's.

tatterd wrote:"completing a quartet of dominant South Hemisphere teams, with clear water back to the rest of the world"

Lets wait until the result of the ireland v bok game before we start trumpeting that kind of crap shall we?

Let's remember it's hardly the best side the boks have that will play today. I don't think anything can be read into the result of IRE v SA to be honest.

Yep.....ireland's creaky scrum......but SA will do this one. The SA side will only get better but still looks a bit too private school boy for my liking x

since when has one game defined a team's ability? There's still a lot of rugby to be played on this tour

I agree that the RC has had an effect on the Argies, even their coach was saying how it has helped them to up their intensity and composure. But I don't want to read to much into one round of matches. AS we've seen, for example, the Aussies get thumped by SA, then thump the Argies, then draw with the All Blacks then get a hiding from the French: teams can be quite up and down....

ultra wrote:Yep.....ireland's creaky scrum......but SA will do this one. The SA side will only get better but still looks a bit too private school boy for my liking x

What does this mean? (please note: given that tone cannot be conveyed so well in writing, I shall state it, lest it is thought that I am being antagonistic... I am just enquiring, 'cause I don't know what this means or connotes...)

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

ultra wrote:Yep.....ireland's creaky scrum......but SA will do this one. The SA side will only get better but still looks a bit too private school boy for my liking x

What does this mean? (please note: given that tone cannot be conveyed so well in writing, I shall state it, lest it is thought that I am being antagonistic... I am just enquiring, 'cause I don't know what this means or connotes...)

yes, I don't get that either.

Too private school?

Can anyone see Buenos Aires team getting into the S15 next time there's a re-jig? Potentially the best players step up from their clubs (although amateur) or pro-players just employed by the team or a mix of both?

With the extra money from the RC they'll hopefully be able to build their professional home-based Elite Squad (whatever they call it). Even if this doesn't bring players back from Europe it'll mean their best ones may well not always go there in the first place.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

tatterd wrote:"completing a quartet of dominant South Hemisphere teams, with clear water back to the rest of the world"

Lets wait until the result of the ireland v bok game before we start trumpeting that kind of crap shall we?

Let's remember it's hardly the best side the boks have that will play today. I don't think anything can be read into the result of IRE v SA to be honest.

Against a much weakened Irish team. In fact Ireland were missing first (Drico) second (O'Connell) and third choice captain (Best). They were also missing reiging european player of the year Rob Kearney, the previous european player of the year Sean O'Brien and arguably Ireland's best player Stephen Ferris amoung others. Lets face it AWOP you really havent a clue do you.

Both teams missed great players.

But to be honest it was a poor game, only two things worked for SA, line outs and defence.

For the Irish not much worked sufficiently enough though. Their line out was under pressure, their attack toothless, but they did manage to have more possession and territory than SA.

I did feel SA was disrupted by the late withdrawal of Beast Mtwarira.

Iwhen we will be able to put out our best team, or even close to what resembles our best team.

GunsGerms wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

tatterd wrote:"completing a quartet of dominant South Hemisphere teams, with clear water back to the rest of the world"

Lets wait until the result of the ireland v bok game before we start trumpeting that kind of crap shall we?

Let's remember it's hardly the best side the boks have that will play today. I don't think anything can be read into the result of IRE v SA to be honest.

Against a much weakened Irish team. In fact Ireland were missing first (Drico) second (O'Connell) and third choice captain (Best). They were also missing reiging european player of the year Rob Kearney, the previous european player of the year Sean O'Brien and arguably Ireland's best player Stephen Ferris amoung others. Lets face it AWOP you really havent a clue do you.

That list is tiny in comparison with whom SA were missing. Or check out Argentina, who manage to field a different team every time out and still get it together. We must accept the team suffering most is Australia as witness from their hiding in Paris.

Argentina emerge? If you have watched rugby as long as you say you have then you would know they emerged well over a decade ago.



And here is a for a classy Argentina. Their brand was boring for the most part but they definitely looked more slick with ball in hand. Their skills and scrum were far superior to ours. Jarvis did well however it was Gethin that was outdone. James, Bath rugby's scrum saviour should have started but Howler picks Toulon's bench warmer. Hate to say it but since the end of the Australia tour Geth looks past it . Have to say it was the worst I've seen from Wales in over 2 years, I had no idea what type of game they were trying to play, it looked like that side to side stuff again. No urgency or pace like we've seen from Wales over the past 12 months, it was all Argentina. But they're hardly setting the world alight AWOP and they still have to face France; you jumping the gun a bit?

Argentina emerged to a level below a decade ago, I agree. But if you watched with your eyes open and blinkers off you would see they were not "boring" at all. In fact it was Wales trying to slow things down by the end. Quite some statement they made!

So repeat up and unders and constant drop-goals aren't boring? Arg didn't even compete for the ball in the air, they were more concerned about taking out our players. That's my gripe. But in between, as I have stated, they played some good rugby. Rugby the SH tri-nations play. Maybe you should watch with your blinkers off. Anyway don't you have a whinging thread to create? I'm sure you have a lot to say about these ref's who are out to get the All Blacks. Heaven forbid should Scotland get within 20 points of NZ later on.

If anyone thinks that was a good Argentinian performance you need to reassess your sport.

The scrum, lineout and parts of the breakdown went well for Argentina, every other phacet was lacking, if they had played as they did in 1/2 of their RC games we wouldve had another 20 points put on us!!!

Three DGs attempts from static ball. They kept the score ticking over.

Wales kicked just over twice as much as Argentina. The Welsh kicking was just awful, too long and Argentina ran it back with multiple phases and patience and recycled quickly ! I didn't see any evidence of Argentina players "taking out" Welsh players, that sounds like sour grapes to me.

Argentina made four times more off-loads and that's how they created two stunning tries. Wales made just 3 off loads in the entire game.

If anyone was "boring" it was Wales I'm sorry, especially all that lateral play and predictable skip passes.

Wales were certainly not boring, thats way too good a word!!!!

anotherworldofpain wrote:Three DGs attempts from static ball. They kept the score ticking over.

Wales kicked just over twice as much as Argentina. The Welsh kicking was just awful, too long and Argentina ran it back with multiple phases and patience and recycled quickly ! I didn't see any evidence of Argentina players "taking out" Welsh players, that sounds like sour grapes to me.

Argentina made four times more off-loads and that's how they created two stunning tries. Wales made just 3 off loads in the entire game.

If anyone was "boring" it was Wales I'm sorry, especially all that lateral play and predictable skip passes.

How can you keep the score ticking with missed drop-goals?

And your wrong again. Argentina kicked away posession 38 times to Wales' 27. Our tactic was to obviously kick it long because we thought we had the advantage in the backs but they proved to also be superior there. Their recycling was always quick ball, something we failed to do. It certainly helped them beat us. And yes I know you didn't see any evidence because to an extent what they did was legal. They didn't compete for the ball they just wanted to knock our players away from catching it, hit the ball backwards and hope for the best. Sale Sharks do it often if you watch any Aviva. This isn't sour grapes. I'd say sending out death threats to a referee is a form of sour grapes but nobody will be doing that because we can accept the better team won.

Again, Argentina made 13 offloads to our 7. Your math isn't very good. But this is obvious and has been highlighted, even by me, so not sure why you repeat it. You are right about our play though. I've no idea what game plan we were trying to execute. It was just poor and unprofessional. And yes it was boring to watch. Arg aren't world class though as you seem to want to insinuate.

The worrying thing is it shows the gap between north and south. Wales are an overated side with overated players but this was a match they should be winning and the gaps between the teams in the 6 Nations outside of Scotland/Italy are still quite small. France lack consisntency, Wales lack mentality against the SH, Ireland are average and England are still in transition.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

France lack consisntency, Wales lack mentality against the SH, Ireland are average and England are still in transition.

Nuff said!!!

Morgannwg wrote:

...... And yes it was boring to watch. Arg aren't world class though as you seem to want to insinuate.

And Wales is?

Argie fan wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

...... And yes it was boring to watch. Arg aren't world class though as you seem to want to insinuate.

And Wales is?

I didn't think it was boring at all. I thought Argentina's smothering approach has added a new dimension of class. Gone is the repeated tiresome infringing, and it's been replaced with real discipline and an eye for the turnover opportunity. They executed well in defense and on the counter attack they looked impressive.

Argie fan wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

...... And yes it was boring to watch. Arg aren't world class though as you seem to want to insinuate.

And Wales is?

Read all of my previous posts if you have a question for me. Because you haven't. Now awop will you stop interchanging between your two accounts you crafty bugga.

Biltong wrote:

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

ultra wrote:Yep.....ireland's creaky scrum......but SA will do this one. The SA side will only get better but still looks a bit too private school boy for my liking x

What does this mean? (please note: given that tone cannot be conveyed so well in writing, I shall state it, lest it is thought that I am being antagonistic... I am just enquiring, 'cause I don't know what this means or connotes...)

yes, I don't get that either.

Too private school?

Maybe he's referring to the green Blazers with the gold piping some of the Saffer officials wear. Reminds me of the old days at Twickers when the French touch judges would wear Rugby shorts and Blazers.

Morgannwg wrote:

Argie fan wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

...... And yes it was boring to watch. Arg aren't world class though as you seem to want to insinuate.

And Wales is?

Read all of my previous posts if you have a question for me. Because you haven't. Now awop will you stop interchanging between your two accounts you crafty bugga.

Leave that sort of thing in the hands of the mods Morgan! I certainly have only ever had one account and any of that kind of action is ably spotted by our techno-savvy mods who can presumably spot the posting IP and MAC address. To get away with it, you'd have to have two separate machines connected on two different internet connections, I don't think anybody would go to those lengths just to wind you up!