IRFU disrespect Fijians with Non-Cap "Test match"

As many of you know, Ireland play Fiji next week in Limerick in the second weekend of the Autumn Internationals. What most Ireland fans are probably aware of but others may not be is that this game is billed as an "Ireland XV" versus Fiji. No caps will be awarded, no rankings points will be contested.

It is rumoured that this is due to Ireland being contractually obliged to play all full internationals in the national stadium in Dublin. I was at the Samoa Autumn International in 2011 which was sparsely attended and can only think it's a good idea for us to move these games around the country- it gives fans who can't afford the trip to Dublin the chance to see the national side and playing in smaller grounds generates a better atmosphere, considering the demand for tickets is likely to be fairly low.

However whatever sense this might make from our point of view and whatever the reasons for this match not having 'test match' status, the closer we get to the test match the more I feel we are grievously insulting the visiting side. Fiji have just come off a heavy defeat to England but in that game they picked a team of players to represent their country, and those 15 men gave everything they had in front of a big crowd. Regardless of the result their efforts on the day and the effort they've expended throughout their career to reach the highest level of the sport will be recognised with a test cap.

But next weekend they won't be as the IRFU have trivialized the meeting between the two sides. Should Fiji shock the bookies and record an historic victory, it won't count in the official statistics for meetings between the two sides. I feel very uncomfortable about this to be honest. It seems like we are being very disrespectful to our visitors here- whilst the reasons behind this matches unusual status are murky, this should be considered a full international. I do feel that it's not represents the raw deal Pacific Islands nations have to continue to deal with on the international stage.

Yeah, I think it is nonsense, all Fiji has to do now is go and beat Ireland.

I completely agree, but the IRFU tied their own hands. Ireland can only play in the Aviva- its contractual. The fact that it is Fiji is irrelevant, it could be Fiji, Italy, New Zealand or whoever and the situation would be the same.

Well, we wouldn't need to move if it was Italy or New Zealand. Sheer idiocy though.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I completely agree, but the IRFU tied their own hands. Ireland can only play in the Aviva- its contractual. The fact that it is Fiji is irrelevant, it could be Fiji, Italy, New Zealand or whoever and the situation would be the same.

For money. They tied their hands for money...and then move away from Dublin for good reasons (i.e. not money).

Thing is it wouldn't happen if it was New Zealand or probably Italy (definitely since you only play them in the 6 Nations). Thing is it may say in the record books that Fiji have never beat Ireland (if they beat you). But you can guarantee it will be brought up every time you play them.

Notch wrote:Well, we wouldn't need to move if it was Italy or New Zealand. Sheer idiocy though.

True of course. I'm just surprised that you are surprised about the incompetence of the IRFU. Must I take you back to 2008 when they said they would never extend a coach to a long term contract on the eve of a tournament. What happened in 2011? The IRFU do an awful lot of good for Irish rugby, but this is certainly not an example. And when we lose to Argentina and drop out of the top 8 Kidney will still be in charge. And Jesus wept.

Oh I'm not surprised at all.

I just feel it needs pointing out. Our provinces are run on a highly professional basis, but the IRFU itself is not. Until people stop attending international matches the organisation won't be forced to change. You can only vote with your feet.

Indeed Notch. I went to one Six Nations match last season and won't be going to another until Kidney leaves the post. A match in Dublin coming from Bangor is an expensive day out. I don't see the point of spending a great deal of money to watch dirge.

What is the point being made here? Why didn't the IRFU host the game in Lansdowne if they're obliged to play all tests there?

The last time Ireland played Fiji in 2009, it was in the teeming rain at the RDS with a 30 point margin victory.

Pot Hale wrote:What is the point being made here? Why didn't the IRFU host the game in Lansdowne if they're obliged to play all tests there?

The last time Ireland played Fiji in 2009, it was in the teeming rain at the RDS with a 30 point margin victory.

The point being made is this is a meeting between two international sides, and therefore should be recognised as such.

I was at that Fiji game in 2009 and I enjoyed it a lot. I agree with the policy of moving these games to provincial grounds; given that this was in place before the AVIVA opened this contractual situation is brainless.

I absolutely despise Brendan Fanning, but he puts it succinctly in the Independent today;

"Saturday in Thomond Park will be a box-ticking exercise, where a first world nation plays a third world one without doing them the honour of giving out caps."

"Third World" and "First World"? Now that is condescending. Fiji is not a third world nation. That's just racism in print. Fiji are a second tier rugby nation. At the rate they're going Ireland will be so too shortly.

It was a stupid arrangement for the IRFU to make but Fiji must have known the status of the game before they organised it.

I don't think it is disrespectful, just making the best of a bad situation. Will any of the players be thinking about whether it counts for World Cup Ranking points when they take the field?

Notch wrote:I absolutely despise Brendan Fanning, but he puts it succinctly in the Independent today;

"Saturday in Thomond Park will be a box-ticking exercise, where a first world nation plays a third world one without doing them the honour of giving out caps."

Goebbels Thornley will probably put Fanning in his place

anotherworldofpain wrote:"Third World" and "First World"? Now that is condescending. Fiji is not a third world nation. That's just racism in print. Fiji are a second tier rugby nation. At the rate they're going Ireland will be so too shortly.

Bejasus lad, maybe your pretend problems with English are acting up again? No speeky tha Inglisch? Fiji are a third tier rugby nation as they are outside the top 8. We will indeed be joining them very shortly. Notch is only wrong in saying we are first tier. Now diddums, trot away to WUM on another thread. Surely you have yet another moronic thread to start? Toodle pip

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:"Third World" and "First World"? Now that is condescending. Fiji is not a third world nation. That's just racism in print. Fiji are a second tier rugby nation. At the rate they're going Ireland will be so too shortly.

Bejasus lad, maybe your pretend problems with English are acting up again? No speeky tha Inglisch? Fiji are a third tier rugby nation as they are outside the top 8. We will indeed be joining them very shortly. Notch is only wrong in saying we are first tier. Now diddums, trot away to WUM on another thread. Surely you have yet another moronic thread to start? Toodle pip

Might be useful to argue from facts, H&H.

AWOP is correct in commenting on the journalist's quote where he used first world and third world as descriptors, which generally refer to economic and political status.

Fiji is designated by the IRB as a Tier Two rugby nation. Ireland is one of the designated ten Tier One nations that comprise the Six and Four Nations competitions.

First, second and third tier ranking - or more properly seeding - is a reference point in the context of RWC draw in December. And, in fact, Fiji are ranked 14th currently, so strictly they're not in the third tier for seeding purposes.

Well it was Brendan Fanning who used the terms third world and first world. He's famously a complete dickhole.

Pot Hale wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:"Third World" and "First World"? Now that is condescending. Fiji is not a third world nation. That's just racism in print. Fiji are a second tier rugby nation. At the rate they're going Ireland will be so too shortly.

Bejasus lad, maybe your pretend problems with English are acting up again? No speeky tha Inglisch? Fiji are a third tier rugby nation as they are outside the top 8. We will indeed be joining them very shortly. Notch is only wrong in saying we are first tier. Now diddums, trot away to WUM on another thread. Surely you have yet another moronic thread to start? Toodle pip

Might be useful to argue from facts, H&H.

AWOP is correct in commenting on the journalist's quote where he used first world and third world as descriptors, which generally refer to economic and political status.

Fiji is designated by the IRB as a Tier Two rugby nation. Ireland is one of the designated ten Tier One nations that comprise the Six and Four Nations competitions.

First, second and third tier ranking - or more properly seeding - is a reference point in the context of RWC draw in December. And, in fact, Fiji are ranked 14th currently, so strictly they're not in the third tier for seeding purposes.

I read the article and since it is a sports piece I took his reference to mean that Fiji were being treated as a third tier rugby nation. Even if you are right, and you may well be, if we want to argue from 'facts' as you desired then Fiji actually is classed as a 'developing nation' and close to being an LEDC given GDP, poverty index, natural resources and political freedom. Fiji is often classed as a third world nation by social geographers, though it is a rather arbitrary definition. So even if the article from Fanning is condescending it isn't factually wrong. Nor is it racism, if it is being argued 'from facts' as you say.

Indeed I made it quite clear that I was referring to ranking not the the IRB definitions. I forgot Fiji were 14th, sad times for them. Awk sure, they will overtake us soon enough.

Basically the reason the match was downgraded was because either kidney or the IRFU not sure which is not confident enough of beating Fiji and a loss to them would more than likely mean we would drop out of the top 8. Really I think that when we drop to such levels of desperation surely its time for change in management.

I'd say its to do with the fact that they are struggling to sell tickets for the Aviva.

SA wasn't a sell out and Argentina definitely won't be. The place would be empty for this.

rodders wrote:I'd say its to do with the fact that they are struggling to sell tickets for the Aviva.

SA wasn't a sell out and Argentina definitely won't be. The place would be empty for this.

It was reported as a sellout in th english papers (50k right?)

rodders wrote:I'd say its to do with the fact that they are struggling to sell tickets for the Aviva.

SA wasn't a sell out and Argentina definitely won't be. The place would be empty for this.

You wont really sell any more tickets by making it an 'A' game.

No Guns, rodders means we're moving it to a smaller stadium. The reason it's an A game is the game is being played in Thomond Park, Limerick and the IRFU seems to have foolishly signed a contract that Ireland will play all test matches in the AVIVA stadium, Dublin.

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:I'd say its to do with the fact that they are struggling to sell tickets for the Aviva.

SA wasn't a sell out and Argentina definitely won't be. The place would be empty for this.

It was reported as a sellout in th english papers (50k right?)

Think capacity is around 52000. There were definitely tickets available the day before the match. I don't think it was far off a sell-out but the stadium wasn't full to capacity, maybe just short.

The IRFU should have given the game to Leinster as the HC champions and share the takings with the IRFU including TV takings. I think a no cap match is an insult also I suspect nobody will put in 100% on both sides i.e., not representing their Country or club.

Doubt that tbh alun.

The established players know that a poor performance here may cost them a place in the side for next week. Any fringe players who are selected know they need to rip up some trees to stay in the team.

Notch wrote:No Guns, rodders means we're moving it to a smaller stadium. The reason it's an A game is the game is being played in Thomond Park, Limerick and the IRFU seems to have foolishly signed a contract that Ireland will play all test matches in the AVIVA stadium, Dublin.

I think that's a bit of a red herring though. Not sure you'd sell much more tickets in Limerick.

Who did Ireland sign this 'contract' with??? Doesn't make any sense.

Should have called it off if they didn't want a full test match. Less of an insult to the Fijians.

Aviva

Shocking management to be honest. Absolutely shocking.

Either hold the international in the Aviva because of the deal you made, or have the foresight not to make a deal like that in the first place.

I hope Ireland are giving Fiji some compensation for their deal with Aviva for this. Especially if they win.

This is all from a third person perspective - I like Ireland as a team but from watching on the sidelines I have to admit, you guys seriously need a shakeup in management and coaching.

"They" win being Fiji of course.

Surely Fiji would have known this wasn't going to be a test match? Im sure Ireland would have told them that before the fixture was made.

This is good for Fiji is it not. They have a completely knew squad and can now give those guys experience without worrying about losing ranking points.

The fixture is billed as 'Ireland A' (i.e. The Wolfhounds) v Fiji so how can it be a capped international? The only issue is whether people feel that Ireland's 1st XV should be facing Fiji.

I think the fact that it's Ireland's A team taking the field probably has more to do with ensuring the best team available take the field in the (rankings) crunch game against Argentina.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is good for Fiji is it not. They have a completely knew squad and can now give those guys experience without worrying about losing ranking points.

They won't lose many rankings points from losing to nations ranked higher than them. Ireland actually rose in the rankings slightly after the New Zealand tour if I remember correctly, because we're so far behind them losing doesn't affect us unduly.

Whereas if we lose to Argentina (near us) we'll lose more points.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:The fixture is billed as 'Ireland A' (i.e. The Wolfhounds) v Fiji so how can it be a capped international? The only issue is whether people feel that Ireland's 1st XV should be facing Fiji.

I think the fact that it's Ireland's A team taking the field probably has more to do with ensuring the best team available take the field in the (rankings) crunch game against Argentina.

Thats kind of the chicken before the egg there Hound. It's billed as Ireland XV vs Fiji because it's not being treated as a capped international. There probably will be a degree of rotation but it's the senior squad not a Wolfhounds selection. It's not an 'A' international. Similar to the Barbarians games which the IRFU does not award caps for this is the senior side under the name Ireland XV versus the full international Fiji side.

Notch - I was just going by a fixture list I saw (BBC??) that had the game down as Ireland A.

Notch wrote:No Guns, rodders means we're moving it to a smaller stadium. The reason it's an A game is the game is being played in Thomond Park, Limerick and the IRFU seems to have foolishly signed a contract that Ireland will play all test matches in the AVIVA stadium, Dublin.

Yup that's what I meant, cheers Notch .

This disgraceful situation is because when the IRFU sold the naming rights to Lansdowne Road, exclusivity was part of the deal. The IRFU have moved the game to Thomond because it is far cheaper to stage it there than staff up the Aviva with policing costs etc.

The losers here are the Fijians who have been disrespected and denied the chance of a meaningful game. The other losers are the Irish players who lose out on a cap, especially if some of them only ever get this chance to represent their country. Johnny Sexton got his first cap against Fiji three years ago but that same honour will not be extended to Jackson or Madigan (should they debut) because of IRFU idiocy and greed. I wonder if ROG will now be risked considering he won't get another cap closer to Gregan's record?

Since the match isnt an International, will the Fijians still be allowed to do the Cibi?

This makes no sense at all. Surely the IRB and not the IRFU decide what does and doesn't constitute a test match.

It's a load of bollix alright. Disgraceful.

I think this is a touch of Irish Genius, If they lose then it wont impact on their IRB ranking, and if they win, well its a home game so they wouldnt have picked up that much in the way of points anyway.

I'm not sure the IRFU are that smart. I'd say they arranged a game with Fiji, switched it to Thomond then realized that they can't stage internationals outside the Aviva and had to rebrand the team as Ireland XV

rodders wrote:I'm not sure the IRFU are that smart. I'd say they arranged a game with Fiji, switched it to Thomond then realized that they can't stage internationals outside the Aviva and had to rebrand the team as Ireland XV

Ah Id doubt that Rodders. Im sure they knew what they were doing, just like Im sure Fiji knew what they were doing accepting it as a non test match.

I think we are over reacting a bit on this.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Notch - I was just going by a fixture list I saw (BBC??) that had the game down as Ireland A.

There seems to be some confusion on this unsurprisingly! It's not Ireland A it's an Ireland XV. Ireland A (Wolfhounds) is our second international team. 'A' caps are awarded for players who represent them. No caps of any kind will be awarded at the weekend.

This straight from the Irish Times (i.e. An Irish rugby press release )

The Fiji match three years ago drew a crowd of almost 1,000 below the 18,000 capacity at the RDS and for that reason the IRFU wanted to move the game to a provincial venue. The game has not been granted Test status because part of the 20-year commercial deal with Aviva for naming rights of the old Lansdowne Road stipulates that all Test matches be played there.

LeinsterFan- the above confirms it is exactly as rodders and I have been saying. Thats why it's an Ireland XV- it's the first team in all but a technical workaround.

So now I'll ask the bigger question; in the next twenty years, is every home game we play against a minnow nation like Fiji, Canada and the USA going to be an uncapped friendly because the AVIVA is too big?

Because that would be shameful. And- given the previous attendance figures for that Fiji game were known well before any commercial deal on the new stadium was reached- evidence of incompetence on a massive scale. I'm guessing the dollar signs lit up in their eyes and pen went on paper before they even realised the consequences of a lack of public interest in games like this.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I think this is a touch of Irish Genius, If they lose then it wont impact on their IRB ranking, and if they win, well its a home game so they wouldnt have picked up that much in the way of points anyway.

I would almost be certain that this is why it was done despite the contract issues excuse. Though I wouldnt call it genius as much as a desperate state of affairs.

Notch wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Notch - I was just going by a fixture list I saw (BBC??) that had the game down as Ireland A.

There seems to be some confusion on this unsurprisingly! It's not Ireland A it's an Ireland XV. Ireland A (Wolfhounds) is our second international team. 'A' caps are awarded for players who represent them. No caps of any kind will be awarded at the weekend.

This straight from the Irish Times (i.e. An Irish rugby press release )

The Fiji match three years ago drew a crowd of almost 1,000 below the 18,000 capacity at the RDS and for that reason the IRFU wanted to move the game to a provincial venue. The game has not been granted Test status because part of the 20-year commercial deal with Aviva for naming rights of the old Lansdowne Road stipulates that all Test matches be played there.

LeinsterFan- the above confirms it is exactly as rodders and I have been saying. Thats why it's an Ireland XV- it's the first team in all but a technical workaround.

So now I'll ask the bigger question; in the next twenty years, is every home game we play against a minnow nation like Fiji, Canada and the USA going to be an uncapped friendly because the AVIVA is too big?

Because that would be shameful. And- given the previous attendance figures for that Fiji game were known well before any commercial deal on the new stadium was reached- evidence of incompetence on a massive scale. I'm guessing the dollar signs lit up in their eyes and pen went on paper before they even realised the consequences of a lack of public interest in games like this.

Notch, I know that. What I was saying is that Im sure when the fixture was made that Fiji knew that it was a non test match. Which is why I think we are over reacting a bit on this. I doubt they see it as disrespectful.
Once Kidney leaves and the team becomes succesful again we should be able to draw big crowds in the Aviva for matches against Fiji etc. Look at England they got 80,000 to twickers for their recent game against Fiji. No reason why we shouldnt be able to get at least 30k to these games once we start performing again.

I'm sure they asked Fiji if they minded it being a non cap test so they could move stadium, and they agreed.

However I think only smaller nations would agree to this, and bigger teams would say full test or we'll go elsewhere.

The IRFU need to speak to the sponsors about this, because they are being made to look like the bad guys in this, as its precieved that the IRFU are being forced to do a non cap game in order to move rugby round the country by the sponsors. When in fact it was the IRFU's fault for agreeing the deal without the fore thought they may want to play some games outside Dublin.

IRFU make sponsors look bad so they redo the deal where Ireland can have one game outside Dublin a year everyone wins.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:]Notch, I know that. What I was saying is that Im sure when the fixture was made that Fiji knew that it was a non test match. Which is why I think we are over reacting a bit on this. I doubt they see it as disrespectful.
Once Kidney leaves and the team becomes succesful again we should be able to draw big crowds in the Aviva for matches against Fiji etc. Look at England they got 80,000 to twickers for their recent game against Fiji. No reason why we shouldnt be able to get at least 30k to these games once we start performing again.

I think its disrespectful because it says- we're willing to play you, but we don't deem you important enough as a rugby nation to make it a capped international. Fiji are probably still happy of the game.

I think the nuances of intensity of emotion can be lost in the written word. It's not like I'm spitting nails with fury, ready to march on IRFU HQ with mob and pitchforks in tow. I'm just very disappointed in the IRFU at how this is being handled.

I think you're a bit optimistic in your analysis of how things are going to go post-Kidney. I'm no Kidney apologist, and I think he should go because I don't believe he and his coaching team have the ability to improve the team or the players they have at their disposal. We've essentially flat-lined and there's little prospect of us getting better. But don't fall into the trap of thinking everything is going to be rosy as soon as he leaves.

We can be more successful if a suitable candidates are available for the main coaching positions, and the IRFU identifies and successfully recruits them. Getting the right man for the job is key if we're going to go anywhere at all and I have very little faith in the IRFUs ability to do this. The most respected national coach in NH rugby, Warren Gatland, had a few things to say about the IRFU as an organisation... they may be an obstruction to getting someone of the same calibre in.

Even if we get the ideal hypothetical perfect-world candidates in place, it will still take time to get the best out of what we have. They'll inherit a team in transition. And in the meantime, the loyalties of the fans have swung from national side to province. People are not just going to come flooding back unless we start regularly punching above our weight and contesting tournaments. If we remain a mid-range side people will stick with the provinces.

Assuming this contract excuse is correct - it would have been a great gesture by Aviva to allow Ireland (as the game is going ahead regardless - albeit with non-cap status) to play it as a full test.

Would have gained them lots of positive 'PR' - and showed themselves as a sponsor as interested in the game as they are the prawn sandwiches & fizzy water.