I need to get this off my chest now I am calm...

Firstly I need to explain that I don't want to mention Poite, he was untipically good IMHO (well as good as Poite can be) he allowed scrums to play out, and didnt just let the team in posession do what they want. Credit to Poite, but that certainly hurt Wales as they were trying to play Poite and didnt react to him being decent!!!

I'll start with the top, Howley and co. I did comment on his interview tfriday night that he was saying all the wrong things in regards to beating Argentina, going wide, moving the pack around, etc etc.. WELL THAT WORKED DIDNT IT!! Lets be clear, I don't dislike Howley, but he had 1/2 seasons as backs coach under his belt before stepping up to the int stage, and now has the top job in Welsh rugby, looking at his CV he is massively underqualified, and it has shown.
Players like Gethin, Rees, Warburton, Roberts are either not playing regularly or very poorly, if they cant put a string of half decent club performances together then why do they have the right to play for the national team?
Ive said it previously I'd have Navidi over Warburton at present, but Tipuric has been the welsh back row shining light this year, and he did in 3 minutes what Sam couldnt in 75.
NO LOCK ON THE BENCH?!?!?!?
Hook as centre cover? this guy has been put through the ringer and is now playing well at 10 in France, only to be thrown back in at centre/fb cover again unsuccesfully. Why does he constantly throw a 2 man miss pass every time?!?!?!

All this has to be attributed to the coaching team (Howley)

Not everything can be attributed to Howley however, there were numerous brain farts from AWJ, Knoyle, RP well the list could go on!
Why touch a kicker when the balls gone, he barely made contact with the guy but why touch him at all??? AWJ has been the lock in wales but played like Ian Evans on a bad day, headless chicken isnt the word!!!

What a difference certain players made when they entered the fray, Tipuric, Hibbard and Phillips were all just what we lacked from the start, we only started going over the game line when Hibbard came on!!

I'll leave it there or I could go on all day, going to rewatch the game (without the beer and passion goggles) later and actually put it through my analysis software (yes I'm THAT sad) just to see what the hell was going on!!

Well said, Wales have been through the turmoil of having off form players being picked for the national team which has costed us many games in the past.

We only started to play well when players who are on form were selected in lieu of the old guard, I just hope history is not going to repeat itself and that we are picking the wrong players for the next few seasons.

The Welsh game is in crisis. The WRU needs to work with the regions and provide firmer foundations, which must include HC qualification based on merit (the top 6 or so of the Rabo, regardless of country) and better funding for the regions. The regions also have to take a long hard look at themselves and ask themselves have they got the best coaching setup to help train the academy players and pro players.

All that aside, coaches have to pick the best players for each match! The same goes for the squad. Gethin gets chosen to start, when M Philips does not -- if you have an apparent principle, apply it to all players.

Pick players who have proved themselves only if they have been playing well. Tipuric should have started, because he's the form 7 in Wales and the UK by a country mile.

If you look at the AI series over the last decade, how many times has Wales won its opening match? Once in the last decade? There is obviously a problem with match preparation -- this is partly down to the Rabo not being intense or consistently competitive enough (see above) and maybe the international players need to play a trial game a week before the first AI test. Playing is better than only training.

Central contracts (or something similar) that encourages players to play in Wales and enable them to be available for training for the national side needs to be brought in.

Problems with the front row/front 5 -- perhaps a specialist scrum school for international players and those with potential needs to be set up. We need more front row/front five players, and something more must be done to develop players. It isn't working at the moment -- we've relied on Adam Jones for too long.

Stop the jobs for the boys. If everyone agrees that Wales produces the raw rugby talent, we should bring in some proven coaches with great track records to the regions (at the elite level) and not give jobs to ex-players or others at elite level who have not served their apprenticeship or proved themselves. Rugby has been a pro sport for a while now but there is still too much of an amateur approach to the recruitment of coaches in the regions.

I was pleased to read that Mark Ring was offered a coaching job with Cardiff RFC. Mark has always struck me as a good thinker/analyst and the sides he has coached have always played exciting rugby. Why doesn't someone with his amount of coaching experience get a chance of a backs coaching role with one of our regions?

Wales needs to develop players with skills and the vision to see what's on, not simply playes who play only to a structure at all times or to plamnned moves. We should learn from the All Blacks. We need coaches who can teach the technical skills to forwards and backs, but who can inspire them to play what's in front of them and make the right decision. How many times on Saturday did you see a player throw a missed pass when there were greater numbers/overlap?

The problems in the regions and the make-up of the coaching setups and the problem with the structure of the game in Wales and the NH have been there for a long time. In Wales' case, three Grand Slams have simply put a slightly more pleasing veneer over the cracks.

Mike

I actually think we've reached a point where we don't know how to handle so much depth in certain positions.

In the past we've always had the like of Shane, Stephen Jones, Martyn Williams and they were head and shoulders above their competition. Today the players pushing for positions in the starting 15 can outperform the established guys. Look at Tipuric, twice the player Sam is at present yet comes on for a few minutes?!?!?!?!

IMHO the welsh mindset is part of the problem, Jenkins, Ruddock, Howley are all sub par to foreign options, they hold the wrong mindset and are from an era gone by!!

Stop the jobs for the boys.

That is one huge part of the problem in the Welsh game, I have seen so many cases of this in the last few seasons first hand!!

IMHO the regions have all but failed, and the game is struggling, the FAW and football trust are doing a great job of converting youngsters, and the idea that the WRU could lose a generation of fans and focus on the generation beyond it is failing because the generation they have alienated are ensuring the game will die soon enough!!!

Agree with that, we need to learn from how NZ handle their players, as no doubt they have amazing depth.

The problem occurs when players believe themselves "undroppable", if you can install a genuine belief that your position is constantly under threat the players have no choice but to step it up.

Mike

Couldnt have said it better myself, didn't Carter take some stick last season and was dropped from a few Crusaders games?

In NZ you are privilaged to wear the jersey, in Wales for a certain few they beleive they are the jersey. It's strange to say as a Cardiff boy but Jenkins, Sam, and Roberts had no right to be on the pitch yesterday, Roberts and Warbs have given their club nothing of note, Evans and Navidi have been far better, and Jenkins cant get into the Toulon team ahead of Sheri!!!

My Wales team wouldve looked like...

James
Hibbard
Jarvis
AWJ
Evans
Tipuric
Mccusker (warbs)
Falatau
Roberts
Hook
North
Beck
Williams
Cuthbert
1/2p

Although I did say I wouldve played Warbs at 6 before the game but clearly he isnt there!!!

And Beck has been ok at best this season, IMHO the best Welsh centre this year has been Maule or Evans, but they arent int quality in reality!!

I wrote on another thread that i watched the game this morning for the first time.

Wales gave me the idea that they was usuing this game has a training run, it was not a serious game. Wales was just going through their routine and saving them selves for the Autralia and New Zealands game.

Argetina on the other hand they came here today to play a game of rugby and to win a game of rugby. and win they did.

maj

Wales looked rusty certainly, but I don't think they were taking it easy, I just think some of our best players were underprepared due to not playing club rugby, playing garbage club rugby, or knowing their wales place is under no pressure!

Couldn't agree more. Argentina 1-23 were very good, played with passion and were deserved winners. Never have I feared an Argentina team until now. But concentrating on our boyo's for a moment;

1. Gethin Jenkins; he just looks overweight and passed it. He was meant to be the experienced prop but just went backwards in the scurms. For all the flak he takes I never seen that often. A shocker by Howler to start with Toulon's bench warmer over Paul James, who is being rated as one of the top scrummaging LH's in the Aviva Premiership. 4/10.

2. Matthew Rees; was okay for the most part, but the form pick? Of course not and that showed. Hasn't even got a consistent run of games for the Scarlets. Howler takes the blame for this one. 6/10.

3. Aaron Jarvis; played very well considering it was his first cap. One of the few form choices. Good around the field, in defence and in the scrums. I expected Arg to just collapse and collapse when they seen they'd be up against him, but Jarvis dealt with it well as did Poite. 8/10/

4. Alun Wyn Jones; yes one of the form players. But he was awful throughout this game. It strikes me as odd to see a 2nd row miss tackles, get stripped of the ball by a back and just play so dumb. What was his closeline all about? Injury came as a blessing, shame there was no Davies on the bench to stake his claim for a starting berth. 4/10.

5. Ian Evans; have to say he played average. The 'penalty' he conceded for that high tackle was a ridiculous call, made even more ridiculous when Argentina tackle like that for the full 80. I think he's one of a few that can play a lot better than this. 5/10.

6. Josh Turnbull; another played not picked on form. I don't have much to say about his performance because he was anonymous all game. 4/10.

7. Sam Warburton; the captain has had a tough time with injuries and it continues. It also continues to effect his game, he is unable to put together some performance and get his form back. Nobody will be more frustrated than he is. However, this was another bad call by Howler. There are other captain choices and other 7's playing much better. Sam too was anonymous for most of the game but capable of so much better. Sadly I don't think we'll see it this Autumn. 4-5/10.

8. Toby Faletau; needed a new lease of rugby, something only the international team can give him at this moment in time. Played well all around. Tackled well, carried well, always gained the hard yards. One of a few starters to do this. Hold your head up high Toby as you were one of the best players on the field. 8/10.

9. Tavis Knoyle; i'm not a fan of his. He played better than I expected. Some of his flaws also effected the team as I expected. Too slow to get to the breakdown and could not deliver any quick ball. Due to his poor passing but mostly in part due to the forwards being beaten. 5/10.

10. Rhys Preistland; I've always backed him and said he was the obvious choice going into this game with hopefully a form fly-half on the bench coming in to take over at some point. His form was okay going into this and we expected him to continue to control games and release the backs. He failed to do this. Now enough is enough and someone must drop him as he continues to spiral down in a Wales jersey. 5/10.

11. George North; still one of our favourite sons. Had a solid enough game but wasn't helped by a poor forward platform and poor midfield. Tough luck. 6/10.

12. Jamie Roberts; not sure what to make of his selection but ultimately felt it was the right call. Expected him to do some damage but was on the back foot in the team that was 2nd best on the day. Went off early because he didn't go low enough in the tackle and took a big knock to the jaw, not so long after getting a hospital pass from Scott Williams. Schoolboy errors. 5/10.

13. Scott Williams; defended fairly well but that's about it. Still needs to improve his carrying ability, particulary running onto the ball at pace. You aren't exactly small Scott so throw your weight around a bit. Another guy capable of better. 6/10.

14. Alex Cuthbert; in the same boat as George. Can't be held accountable for not being given any space to work in. Could have done better but like the rest of his team was not good enough to break the Argentinian defence. 6/10..

15. Leigh Halfpenny; kicked well, as we expected. Good under the high ball but was delibirately targetted in the air. No doubt an Arg tactic and it they made it look as if they were competing. Been in great form since coming back from injury but looked rusty. Still weak in his one V one's. Perhaps he is a winger afterall. 6/10.

Hibbard; form hooker consistently playing well. Why did he not start? Very good at punching holes in opposition defences and a very hard man despite his fat, hairdresser appearance. Made an impact, but brought on too late. 7/10.

Tipuric; read what Bluesman has said. Him and Ryan Jones starting could make us the team we were yesterday. 8/10.

McCusker; I would have started him over Turnbull. Decent enough player but definitely not picked on form. Needs to stay with his Region and develop back to where he was when he first gained a cap. Inexperienced showed in the closing stages. 5/10.

Phillips; still looks a bit lethargic yet no team can capitalise upon it. Definitely increased the tempo of the game and keeps defences on their toes around the fringes. Hard to bring down as always. Still Wales' best scrum-half (in this squad anyway). 6-7/10.

Hook; where do I begin. A guy who has some much flare and talent plays awful. Looks a shadow of the teen sensation he was and it is not very smart in his decision making. His execution is poor. His crabbing across the field and showboating allowed the Arg defence to quickly close down our wingers on the outside. Defence is still poor. Shouldn't be in the matchday 23; Biggar, Williams and perhaps another form choice instead! 4/10.

Paul James and Bevs. PJ is our best loosehead. Bevs shouldn't be in the squad.

Robert 'howler' Howley; again just read what we've all been saying for months. Wrong selections. Wrong tactics. Wrong pre and post-match words being spouted. Probably the wrong half time speech given to the boys aswell. Well out of his depth. He needs to do a 'Mad Marc' and ruthlessly drop some of these players (like Marc did after France lost to Italy), but he won't. 0/10.

I am not a fan or huge believer of players being allowed to play themselves back into form. Unfortunately this is what the welsh management are keen to do and it's backfired badly. For me, selection should be a product of decent club form over a number of matches. If you're not playing well at club level then it must be very rare to be able to suddenly play hugely better a week later at a higher level. Why, oh why do they think that Warburton will suddenly be awesome when for weeks and weeks he's been poor.

It also doesn't send out a very good message to the other players aspiring to break into the team. If you're in form and a player in poor form is picked over you then that must be very demoralising. Similarly, it doesn't put any pressure on the under performing 1st choice players. They'll get picked no matter how they perform at club level. Now, I was all for Mike Phillips getting dropped as he hasn't played well for Wales much lately IMO. And I think this may have given him a kick up the backside as he showed some real heart and desire when he came on. The same should have been done for G Jenkins, Priestland, Roberts and Warburton - give them the boot until they prove that they must be picked. Give them a taste of failure (by not being picked) to give them the drive and desire to prove people wrong and get them fighting for their place.

Morg

I don't say it often mate but I think we are finally on the same page, every single word of that was spot on.

Just one question though, the 10 spot. Biggar is the better form of the two, but his distribution isn't up to scratch IMHO, why is Hook not considered in the only position he has excelled in? At ten he can hit his targets, play the pre set lines, and make a break while his defence can be hidden more. Perpignan are giving him a shot and he's doing well, the guy is clearly talented but fails eveytime in a welsh shirt now because he cannot play the positions they are making him. 10 is his position and I want to see him gioven a chance, and not just in the odd game ala semi final at a world cup. Lets give him the 6N and judge him after a few games, RP has had far more time to fail!!!

griff

I disagree slightly, players should definately get the chance to play themselves back into form... BUT NOT AT INTERNATIONAL LEVEL!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:griff

I disagree slightly, players should definately get the chance to play themselves back into form... BUT NOT AT INTERNATIONAL LEVEL!!!

That's what I mean! That's what club seasons are for!

Not according to the blues, it's to rest the internationals until HC or the 2 weeks before Int games!!

spot on with every comment morg. and hook at 10 for wales now would be a disaster, we must move on. hook is only adequate at perpignan, where people get the idea he has been doing well i dont know, they want shot of him, partially for money problems but also because he hasnt consistently produced the goods. the french are most critical that he is their highest paid player and has not delivered. see perps web site.

he came on and ran towards the players he was passing too, but its no surpirise, he always does it.there was no direct play and although the priest should be sent packing, hook was to blame for majority of mis passes that ended up with us being munched. priest kicked the rest away.

if biggar had been playing yesterday and put in a performance like hook or priestland this forum would be going ape and finishing his career!!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Morg

I don't say it often mate but I think we are finally on the same page, every single word of that was spot on.

Just one question though, the 10 spot. Biggar is the better form of the two, but his distribution isn't up to scratch IMHO, why is Hook not considered in the only position he has excelled in? At ten he can hit his targets, play the pre set lines, and make a break while his defence can be hidden more. Perpignan are giving him a shot and he's doing well, the guy is clearly talented but fails eveytime in a welsh shirt now because he cannot play the positions they are making him. 10 is his position and I want to see him gioven a chance, and not just in the odd game ala semi final at a world cup. Lets give him the 6N and judge him after a few games, RP has had far more time to fail!!!

I'm nervous with all 3 of our fly-half options. I'd be willing to start with Hook, which seems the most logical given his experience, but only if Biggar was on the bench. They have 80 minutes between them to try and 'blend' into the team now, (versus Samoa).

People are going ape at Hook and RP mind!!!

Like gavstar says, can't see how Hook was one of the form picks either. Our best option is inexperienced at this level and can also be prone to error at this level. Howler should risk it though, I mean that selection would pale in comparison to picking some of yesterdays starters.

bluesman, yes posters going ape at hook and the priest, but mainly its the posters who said BEFORE the game that the selections were wrong, the ones who wanted hook and the priest are mostly significantly silent.

that silence says it all, dont we know !!

Let's be honest, we'll be lucky to get one win playing like that unless things are drastically changed this instant. The best 23 I think we can put out next week;

1. Paul James
2. Richard Hibbard
3. Aaron Jarvis
4. Luke Charteris
5. Ian Evans
6. Ryan Jones(c)
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Scott Williams
13. Jonothan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Matthew Rees, 17. Gethin Jenkins, 18. Bradley Davies, 19. Aaron Shingler, 20. Rhys Priestland, 21. Ashley Beck, 22. Liam Williams. 23. A scrum half, but refuse to name any given the ones we have in the squad.

Morg,

Thats spot on with the team I would go for one little quibble they won't go gor a 4/4 split on the bench it will be a 5/3.

So you would ned another front rower and swap one of the backs for a No9 but like you said who

Yeah feel free to edit the bench. The bench would be a lot more simple if we had less injuries and more form players in the squad! Warbs would still make the 23 I guess. Howler hasn't the bottle to drop anyone. I fear for our team and am losing faith due to the poor management. If I see the same team for Arg picked next week I will not be watching the game. Morg's boycott starts then.

Well as its a 23 man bench and unless I am mistaken that means you have to have a complete front row on there so

Rees, Jenkins, Lees, Warburton (like you said he hasn't balls to drop him to the bench let alone out totally), Davies. Knoyle (but does it matter who), Priestland, Williams

Yeah I'd go with that bench. Better Lee than Andrews. In that case I'd go for Beck over RP, pray that Biggar doesn't get injured but if he does then move Halfpenny to 10. Yes it's come to that.

When does Howler pick the same team as last week, they just had a bad day at the office (joke)?