Tom heathcote

Just been called into Scotland squad, born in Inverness but played age grade for England

Never seen him play, but read he's a 10 which has been a problem for us for ages

Plays for bath and only 20.

What's he like ? Anyone ?

See the Scotland Tonga thread, chat there

Already posted elsewhere, but

He's represented England at u16, u18 and u20 level, and been living in the south of England I believe since at least the age of 6. This is the flip-side of the nationality debate - just because he was born in Scotland some would argue he should be able to play for them, but every bit of his rugby education has been in England and I presume he has no plans to move to Scotland.

Doesn't feel right to me.

DaveM wrote:Already posted elsewhere, but

He's represented England at u16, u18 and u20 level, and been living in the south of England I believe since at least the age of 6. This is the flip-side of the nationality debate - just because he was born in Scotland some would argue he should be able to play for them, but every bit of his rugby education has been in England and I presume he has no plans to move to Scotland.

Doesn't feel right to me.

Scotland have this strange ruling which allows them to pick players born in Scotland - Its strange but that's the way it is. I prefer the Botha, Barritt system myself, seems fairer

DaveM wrote:Already posted elsewhere, but

He's represented England at u16, u18 and u20 level, and been living in the south of England I believe since at least the age of 6. This is the flip-side of the nationality debate - just because he was born in Scotland some would argue he should be able to play for them, but every bit of his rugby education has been in England and I presume he has no plans to move to Scotland.

Doesn't feel right to me.

You can hand Tom Palmer back then.

Hang on.......... in all seriousness he wouldnt get anywhere near the full England team anyway.....and its harsh to talk about representation Dave when we have the likes of Paice, Barritt, Botha etc currently and formerly Henry Paul, Vainkiolo, Flutey etc etc...

Good luck to the lad...

I feel your nationality is defined by a combination of where you grow up, and where you choose to live. Where you happen to be born is as irrelevant as who your grandparents were - you have zero control over either and you may not even be aware of either fact.

I have never had a problem with people moving to a country and eventually qualifying to play for that country. If Heathcote wishes to go and live in or play for Glasgow or Edinburgh and then eventually qualify then that's fine but his entire rugby education has been in and by England. It's like us picking Barritt whilst he was still based in SA.

If you spend the first 6 years of your life in a particular country I can assure you it will play a significant part in you personality and your sense of identity.

Probably, but I'm not sure he did. I believe he was playing mini-rugby in Salisbury at the age of 6. There's a good chance he moved down well before that, If he did then he's a product of England, and of English rugby and he apparently doesn't want to live or work in Scotland at this point in his life. Under these circumstances I don't think he should be eligible to play for Scotland.

And accepting that he is, I just don't think he should have played u20, u18 and u16 rugby for England if he wanted to play for Scotland.

DaveM wrote:I feel your nationality is defined by a combination of where you grow up, and where you choose to live. Where you happen to be born is as irrelevant as who your grandparents were - you have zero control over either and you may not even be aware of either fact.

Fair point. However, you're arguing by extension (correct me if I'm wrong) that a player does have control over where they receive their rugby education. Barring some REALLY demanding children (the type you see in the Waitrose sweetie aisle on a Saturday morning), you don't have control over where you grow up. To be honest, thanks to the vagaries of the UCAS system, the first time a person really gets to choose where they live is when they leave university and start looking for a job. Up to then, it's pure chance.

As had been argued ad nauseum during the Shingler debate, it's not up to any of us to decide what factors influence or characterise an individual's nationality. I was born in England, then raised and educated in the US and England, and yet I wouldn't ever consider playing rugby for England. Nothing wrong with England at all, just a question of personal identification.

As I said during the Shingler debate, it's not our place to tell any player how he should feel.

RubyGuby wrote:If you spend the first 6 years of your life in a particular country I can assure you it will play a significant part in you personality and your sense of identity.

I lived in the US for the first 8-ish years of my life, and it definitely had an impact - I remember pleading with my Dad not to make us move back to cold and rainy England (as it is constantly characterised in the States). In hindsight, thank God we did move back - I would probably have ended up joining the NRA or something.

Robinson's a top poacher.

Yes but his parents may have raised him as a Scot, in the sense of culture and values and general life.
I was born in England to a Welsh family, and consider myself thoroughly welsh through how i was brought up, whose kit i was bought, just generally raised to be told I'm welsh.

Could easily be the same with this guy.

Heathcotes probably a lot more Scottish than Tualagi, Barrit or Botha are English.

Must say I was a bit disappointed by this as an England fan. His Bath profile always said he was born in Bath (it literally changed yesterday!) and he has represented England at every age grade level, so it came as a bit of a surprise.

Either way, good luck to the lad. He is a talent and should serve Scotland well in the future.

alive555 wrote:Heathcotes probably a lot more Scottish than Tualagi, Barrit or Botha are English.

I think the point is that he is exactly as scottish as Barritt is English and his rugby training comes from the same culture as Tuilagi and Botha. At least we wont be as precious about him as our near neighbours were about Shingler.

If he has a chance to play international rugby for Scotland and is going to commit to that then I dont actually see the problem.

Looseheaded wrote:Yes but his parents may have raised him as a Scot, in the sense of culture and values and general life.
I was born in England to a Welsh family, and consider myself thoroughly welsh through how i was brought up, whose kit i was bought, just generally raised to be told I'm welsh.

Could easily be the same with this guy.

It could, but he has played all age grade rugby for England so I suspect not, just as I would expect you wouldn't (given the talent?) play for England u16,u18,u20.

Good luck to him anyway.

I agree with DaveM on this one.

He's hardly the first. He won't be the last. It's his choice.

You can twist any specific case to make any point you want.

He was born in Scotland and raised as a Scot in England. U16, U18, etc are usually based on location rather than nationality and don't mean much.

He was raised in England, played all his rugby in England, he represented England at various levels, he knows he has less chance of getting into the English camp as so takes the easier option of playing for Scotland when their poachers came calling (the SRU does have a policy of hunting out Scottish qualified English players, doesn't it?).

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Yes but his parents may have raised him as a Scot, in the sense of culture and values and general life.
I was born in England to a Welsh family, and consider myself thoroughly welsh through how i was brought up, whose kit i was bought, just generally raised to be told I'm welsh.

Could easily be the same with this guy.

It could, but he has played all age grade rugby for England so I suspect not, just as I would expect you wouldn't (given the talent?) play for England u16,u18,u20.

Good luck to him anyway.

I agree with DaveM on this one.

If I was asked to play England age group I would.
The level of coaching and connections you can make are huge, especially compared to 'Exile' age group teams.
I think most of my peers would also do that, as I know numerous Welsh born players who are at university and sixth form currently playing age group England despite being born and bred Welsh.

You'd be a moron to not accept the offer at a young age, as it's the key time to improve and develop.

Looseheaded wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Yes but his parents may have raised him as a Scot, in the sense of culture and values and general life.
I was born in England to a Welsh family, and consider myself thoroughly welsh through how i was brought up, whose kit i was bought, just generally raised to be told I'm welsh.

Could easily be the same with this guy.

It could, but he has played all age grade rugby for England so I suspect not, just as I would expect you wouldn't (given the talent?) play for England u16,u18,u20.

Good luck to him anyway.

I agree with DaveM on this one.

If I was asked to play England age group I would.
The level of coaching and connections you can make are huge, especially compared to 'Exile' age group teams.
I think most of my peers would also do that, as I know numerous Welsh born players who are at university and sixth form currently playing age group England despite being born and bred Welsh.

You'd be a moron to not accept the offer at a young age, as it's the key time to improve and develop.

Looseheaded wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Yes but his parents may have raised him as a Scot, in the sense of culture and values and general life.
I was born in England to a Welsh family, and consider myself thoroughly welsh through how i was brought up, whose kit i was bought, just generally raised to be told I'm welsh.

Could easily be the same with this guy.

It could, but he has played all age grade rugby for England so I suspect not, just as I would expect you wouldn't (given the talent?) play for England u16,u18,u20.

Good luck to him anyway.

I agree with DaveM on this one.

If I was asked to play England age group I would.
The level of coaching and connections you can make are huge, especially compared to 'Exile' age group teams.
I think most of my peers would also do that, as I know numerous Welsh born players who are at university and sixth form currently playing age group England despite being born and bred Welsh.

You'd be a moron to not accept the offer at a young age, as it's the key time to improve and develop.

So you would represent a country you don't feel affiliated with just to take advantage of the resources? No wonder the country is going to the dogs

HammerofThunor wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Yes but his parents may have raised him as a Scot, in the sense of culture and values and general life.
I was born in England to a Welsh family, and consider myself thoroughly welsh through how i was brought up, whose kit i was bought, just generally raised to be told I'm welsh.

Could easily be the same with this guy.

It could, but he has played all age grade rugby for England so I suspect not, just as I would expect you wouldn't (given the talent?) play for England u16,u18,u20.

Good luck to him anyway.

I agree with DaveM on this one.

If I was asked to play England age group I would.
The level of coaching and connections you can make are huge, especially compared to 'Exile' age group teams.
I think most of my peers would also do that, as I know numerous Welsh born players who are at university and sixth form currently playing age group England despite being born and bred Welsh.

You'd be a moron to not accept the offer at a young age, as it's the key time to improve and develop.

So you would represent a country you don't feel affiliated with just to take advantage of the resources? No wonder the country is going to the dogs

Well let's be honest here it's not a perishable resource, it's coaching.
And of course I would, it's making the best of a situation, if you want to represent the country you feel affiliated with but physically can't due to geographical location, then take the best option.

It'd be different if he was a good player in Scotland, then came to England specifically for the better age group system.

I'm sure the RFU showed him a contract when he was playing U16 rugby for England that he was committed to England.

Surely the IRB should be involved with this?

Speaking of people who are duel qualified. What's Shane Geraghty up to these days is he injured playing badly whats the craic barely here him mentioned. Did England cap him just to prevent him playing for Ireland. Or has he not really kicked on development wise.

Do you mean lazy Geraghty?

HERSH wrote:Do you mean lazy Geraghty?

Is that the story then a lack of work ethic. Because when he burst on to the scene he appeared to have all the attributes to be a top player.

I dont think Shane really stepped up....

Shane who?

Shane 'born and raised in England' Geraghty.

Loosehead, there are a limited number of places in the underage teams so it is a limited resource. No issue with people changing their minds. But people taking up a space with no interest in representing the full side is off IMO (not suggesting Heathcote did this). But it was only a joke anyway.

HammerofThunor wrote:Shane 'born and raised in England' Geraghty.

Loosehead, there are a limited number of places in the underage teams so it is a limited resource. No issue with people changing their minds. But people taking up a space with no interest in representing the full side is off IMO (not suggesting Heathcote did this). But it was only a joke anyway.

Shane both his parents are Irish Geraghty i wasn't saying there was a problem with england picking him just that he was duel qualified which he was. I just wondered what happened to him as he looked a porspect and a half. Personally i think he made a mistake picking England over Ireland as he may well of got a lot more Irish caps than English ones.

He got some caps just after moving to Saints, and was doing very well (sparked the home win over Munster). Played pants for England, the England management were blamed for that and the fact he's been a bit pants since then. Disappeared to France and then reappeared at Irish. I haven't seen him off the bench for any of their games I've seen (very few) so no idea how he's settled back in or what position they see him in.

and Geraghty represented Ireland at U16 level didn't he?

My lad played with Tom Heathcote in the Dorset and Wiltshire Under 16 and 18 teams, Tom was at Bishop Wandsworth School near Salisbury and also played occasionally for Salisbury RFC Colts. Tom went on to join Bath's Academy, represent the South West of England and ultimately England. A good player with a cultured boot, I think Scotland have done well. At the time we had no idea he was dual qualified, he always seemed archetypal English to us. Others on the other hand were quite open that their allegiance lay elsewhere, my son being one of them. He quite openly chose the Welsh route, captaining the Welsh Exiles U16 and U18 teams before being picked up by the Newport Welsh Dragons regional squad where he played in the Welsh Regional Championships. He never did quite make it to the International stage unfortunately but it was certainly a great rugby education, I personally think it's much better than the English system of development. Obviously Tom Heathcote now feels the same way as why else would he switch to Scotland. Good luck to him anyway!

Last night was a programme on ITV4 about Dallaglio, in it he talked about how impatient he was to get to play international rugby. He'd turned down Italy then got a call from Ireland which he really seriously considered but decided that he wanted to represent England. It just goes to show how complicated it all is.

Can't say that I blame Scotland for doing it as they have scarce resources but I hope that for someone like Heathcote that he's not jumped at the chance rather than carry on working towards an England cap that he really wanted. I'm not saying that this is what he wants but I hope that he isn't going to regret his decision.

I wonder where Dallaglio would have got if he'd taken the quick route?

alive555 wrote:Just been called into Scotland squad, born in Inverness but played age grade for England

Never seen him play, but read he's a 10 which has been a problem for us for ages

Plays for bath and only 20.

What's he like ? Anyone ?

My wife cuts his hair.

Have I won?

DaveM wrote:Already posted elsewhere, but

He's represented England at u16, u18 and u20 level, and been living in the south of England I believe since at least the age of 6. This is the flip-side of the nationality debate - just because he was born in Scotland some would argue he should be able to play for them, but every bit of his rugby education has been in England and I presume he has no plans to move to Scotland.

Doesn't feel right to me.

I've just had a thought on this nationality thing, but this time regarding Henry Pyrgos. Now this lad has never represented England at any level, he was born in Dorchester, Dorset, which as far as I'm aware is in England. He was educated at Bryanston School in Dorset where coincidentally his father Mike Pyrgos is head coach as well as being (or at least was) manager and coach of the England under 16 squad. He played county rugby for Dorset and Wiltshire then he went on to Loughborough University from where he decided to leave his education and play for Glasgow in 2010. Seems to me, and I quote, "every bit of his rugby education has been in England".

Doesn't feel right to me.

RuggerBoy - I take it Botha, Barritt and the rest of the merry foreign crew don't feel right to you as well then

The only thing that matters is whether it feels right to the player. That's it.

RubyGuby wrote:RuggerBoy - I take it Botha, Barritt and the rest of the merry foreign crew don't feel right to you as well then

RubyGuby, actually it was a tongue in cheek reply. I don't really have an issue with anyone who strives to play at the highest level they can, anywhere they can - Botha being a brilliant example. I only mentioned Tom and Henry because I know them, because I was involved on the coaching and management side of the Dorset and Wiltshire Youth set up. I know they will both give their all - no matter who they play for!

RuggerBoy wrote:My lad played with Tom Heathcote in the Dorset and Wiltshire Under 16 and 18 teams, Tom was at Bishop Wandsworth School near Salisbury and also played occasionally for Salisbury RFC Colts. Tom went on to join Bath's Academy, represent the South West of England and ultimately England. A good player with a cultured boot, I think Scotland have done well. At the time we had no idea he was dual qualified, he always seemed archetypal English to us. Others on the other hand were quite open that their allegiance lay elsewhere, my son being one of them. He quite openly chose the Welsh route, captaining the Welsh Exiles U16 and U18 teams before being picked up by the Newport Welsh Dragons regional squad where he played in the Welsh Regional Championships. He never did quite make it to the International stage unfortunately but it was certainly a great rugby education, I personally think it's much better than the English system of development. Obviously Tom Heathcote now feels the same way as why else would he switch to Scotland. Good luck to him anyway!

I don't really get what you're trying to say here. Kid comes all the way through the English system and gets picked for international rugby at 20, how does that prove Scotland/ Wales have a better systems than England? If anything, doesn't it prove England have a very good system?

Cumbrian:
I'm not trying to say anything other than, I personally think it's a much better system in Wales (I can't speak for Scotland) simply because the criteria for selection to the next level is much more transparent. Every player who is dual qualified, and is any good, will have to make a decision sometime or other. My lad chose the Welsh route early, Tom has chosen the Scottish route late. It's not an indictment of any system, but a question to you, "If England have a very good system why do you feel Tom has jumped ship now?".

RuggerBoy wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:RuggerBoy - I take it Botha, Barritt and the rest of the merry foreign crew don't feel right to you as well then

RubyGuby, actually it was a tongue in cheek reply. I don't really have an issue with anyone who strives to play at the highest level they can, anywhere they can - Botha being a brilliant example. I only mentioned Tom and Henry because I know them, because I was involved on the coaching and management side of the Dorset and Wiltshire Youth set up. I know they will both give their all - no matter who they play for!

RuggerBoy wrote:Cumbrian:
I'm not trying to say anything other than, I personally think it's a much better system in Wales (I can't speak for Scotland) simply because the criteria for selection to the next level is much more transparent. Every player who is dual qualified, and is any good, will have to make a decision sometime or other. My lad chose the Welsh route early, Tom has chosen the Scottish route late. It's not an indictment of any system, but a question to you, "If England have a very good system why do you feel Tom has jumped ship now?".

Isn't it more the case that having graduated from England U-20's, the national involvement in a player's development pretty much ends in England, until and if he is chosen for the Saxons? The England Regional Academies run up to the age of 25, I think, but they're run by the clubs and although national coaches will keep on eye on players, there'll be no specialist coaches or training camps as there are for under-age (open to correction on that). He'll be thrown out of Bath's Academy for not being EQ, but I don't suppose that'll make much difference to his club training and development, except Bath will have to give him a full professional contract if he doesn't already have one.

So he's on the bench for Saturday. As expected, they will get him on the pitch and capped so he's tied in

It just doesn't feel right to me.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

RuggerBoy wrote:Cumbrian:
I'm not trying to say anything other than, I personally think it's a much better system in Wales (I can't speak for Scotland) simply because the criteria for selection to the next level is much more transparent. Every player who is dual qualified, and is any good, will have to make a decision sometime or other. My lad chose the Welsh route early, Tom has chosen the Scottish route late. It's not an indictment of any system, but a question to you, "If England have a very good system why do you feel Tom has jumped ship now?".

Isn't it more the case that having graduated from England U-20's, the national involvement in a player's development pretty much ends in England, until and if he is chosen for the Saxons? The England Regional Academies run up to the age of 25, I think, but they're run by the clubs and although national coaches will keep on eye on players, there'll be no specialist coaches or training camps as there are for under-age (open to correction on that). He'll be thrown out of Bath's Academy for not being EQ, but I don't suppose that'll make much difference to his club training and development, except Bath will have to give him a full professional contract if he doesn't already have one.

Ruggerboy: This, what he said.

He's gone as far as he can in age grade devlopment terms, he's got to the point of being 'ready' for international rugby and he had to make his choice between England and Scotland. Why he chose to play for Scotland rather than England depends upon his motivation.

He maybe chose Scotland because he felt more Scottish or he may have looked at the future and decided he was behind Toby Flood, Owen Farrell, Freddie Burns, George Ford, Danny Cipriani and Ryan Lamb (and probably a couple of others) in the England pecking order. It could be either or any number of other reasons. If it was a case of 'jumping ship' he'd have done it sooner. By your reasoning he would have been better off out of the English system as early as possible.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but the fact remains that Heathcote chose to learn his trade within the English system and is now (or will be) an international player because of this.

Likewise Hersh, if he was such a patriotic Scotsman then how was he able to play for all those england age grade sides that beat them?

I see the argument for wanting to play international rugby, but he's only 20 yrs old, is widely recognised in the Jeff as being a decent prospect for the future, and i'm sure that the England set up will know all about him as well.

Would also like to point out that SRFU are proving to be rather sly dirty dogs in recent years. Basically poaching players from other countries or actively recruiting players that may become eligible later on in their careers. Excellent way to promote rugby up north....

"poaching players from other countries or actively recruiting players that may become eligible later on in their careers. "

How very dare they eh

We don't allow kids to vote or drive cars alone so why should their choices made when they're minors in these circumstances be upheld as adults.

I'm a scot who finished my schooling in ENG as my father moved our family south for work reasons. I went on to represent SW ENG by the end of my junior days... I did this not because I wanted to represent ENG one day but rather I went from my school & club team to my counties side and then onto representative rugby.

It was the natural progress and it was what my buddies were doing so it felt the natural way to go.
If I was good enough I probably would have accepted to represent ENG age grade because it would be near impossible to represent SCO due to the distance and other commitments.

It doesn't mean I wanted to play for the full ENG side one day and had no reflection on my nationality.

Perhaps Heathcote chose Scotland because he didn't think he was good enough to play for ENG, perhaps he feels torn to represent Scotland. But he was born there pure and simple.

So I learnt half my junior rugby in ENG, big deal... it didn't have that much impact on me... it wasn't that my coaching was extra special... it was just the same as completely useless kids got so its not like I owe ENG a debt of gratitude, I mean the teachers got paid. The thing that made be better than most kids (until I got to representative level) was without being arrogant.... part talent, part enthusiasm.

This isn't residency or a grannygate issue... so its no issue.

Cumbrian:
As you say, it is merely an opinion and I'm quite happy to leave it at that. I just hope Tom continues to develop as a player, wherever he plays the game.

IMO he could have been the England fly half in 5 years time, Farrell, Burns, Ford and Heathcoat would have been a good battle for the No 10 shirt.

I think it also means he has no future at Bath which is a shame as it is them that have brought him on.

Cheers Tom, enjoy looking at your Scottish Cap forever wondering if you could have been an England great.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!