Change on the horizon for Welsh Rugby....

It has been all doom and gloom recently for Welsh Rugby. I myself have despaired at the recent performances of the team, the apparent lack of tactical nouse of the caretaker coaching team and the somewhat foolish and maybe insulting team selections.

There is part of me, that hopes Wales lose quite comprehensively this weekend to confirm the demise of Welsh Rugby and to force the powers at be to make radical changes to the international and regional set up.

Firstly, let me say I would take absolutely no pride or pleasure in this but it seems only a complete collapse of Welsh fortunes will force those in the right places to make changes.

The coaching staff I feel have taken this side as far as they can go. By this I do not question the ability and potential of a young, powerful and vibrant array of players'. I do question however, the ability of the staff that lead them.

For me, the lack of inspirational leaders in the coaching staff has come to the fore this summer and in Australia. There is no question that the coaching team without Gatland is a lot weaker, lacking leadership and the respect of the players. It is not suprising to me for a number of reasons:

1) The first reason being simple. It must be hard for a group of coaches and in this I exclude Gatland, to instill the confidence in players that they are capable of beating teams they have struggled against in the past (i.e. samoa) and to go on and beat teams they have struggled or have never won against themselves.

2) The coaching team is currently headed by one dictator (Gatland). This is apparent and obvious. In order for a team to be successful there has to be unity in a coaching team YES. But NOT unthinking and unquestionable obedience. Coaches must have their own opinions, ideas and tactical strengths and look to influence the head coach. Without this we end up with a head coach that is never questioned. How can we expect a new game-plan, tactics or selection debates to ever arise or be in question when all coaches are too laissez fair with their own ideas.

Changes must be made! The WRU need to identify a coaching team that can work best and challenge each other. We must have coaches that can instill the belief that we can beat the top teams. We need coaches who can fire up the imaginations of our players and challenge them to be more mentally strong.

Roger Lewis has announced changes are a foot in Welsh Rugby on both a regional and international basis. He outlines what the talks are about and what changes may cause for what he calls solid foundations for welsh rugby. Check out the bbc sport website for the interview!

Thoughts?

PS: i would keep Gatland and surround him with coaches who will challenge his decisions.

We need an innovative backs coach, a new skills coach with fresh ideas and a forwards coach that will just give us a nastier, more aggressive set of forwards!

The coaching staff is far from Welsh rugby's problems!!!

Lets start at the bottom and work our way up if you want to make sustainable viable changes, not the other way around!!

so bluesman.....you are saying the coaching team, with the players at their disposal are doing a satisfactory job?

I do not agree that while we sort out the foundations of welsh rugby we should continue to pay high wages to coaches out of their depth and lacking the ideas to utilise the players we have right NOW!

We should be able to work from both ends of the spectrum.

I think that is what roger lewis eludes to in his interview with Huw on Special Wales Report.

Permian, I entirely agree with you, Howlers only backs moves are the blind side wing coming inside and Roberts crash ball antics off set piece, the trouble is Howler had that job because of the Wasps connection with Gatland and Edwards. His only coaching role was for a short period as the Blues attack or backs coach. The inexperience angle also applies to McBride, the only thing with him he has made a better fist of his chances, last Saturday not withstanding, the worrying thing for me in the Regional talks is the installation of coaches into that set up, what kind of record has the WRU got in the appointment of National Coaches. The Forum on my team (Ospreys) is in uproar over this fundamental issue, many on there have said they would never support them anymore, these people are the core of our support and have been ST holders since our inception

I think you guys put way too much weight on the accountability of your coaches. They don't hold a magic wand. When the anthems (and Haka!) are over 15 + very experienced, seasoned, professional players step out onto that park and the coach is rendered useless in terms of the result from that point- barring what he can conjure up at half time.

Getting Gatland back isnt going to change things. If it causes a dramatic turnaround in more or less the same team in a week then you really have to wonder about the players as players of this game, if their performance makes so much difference in terms of who has been yapping at them all week.

Wayne, I am an Osprey fan myself and I am pleased with the main man in Tandy at the moment. He is a player who has been with the region and looks and sounds like someone who has an intellectual rugby brain.

Yes Lewis has said that they will have a direct influence on coaches at regions. But I hope successful coaches with a decent track record will replace those who exist. I believe we have two quality coaches at the helm of the Scarlets and Ospreys.

Phil Davies for me is a weak leader and lacking any real rugby coaching CV worth mentioning. I dont want to hear about teams like Leeds carnegie.

It is hard to have an opinion on Edwards at the dragons but he doesnt strike me as an intelligent rugby leader.

We must stop giving to jobs to the "Boys" if you like. If we do not have quality coaches readily available in Wales then we must look elsewhere.

Fair enough taylorman.... while i agree with you in some respects it comes down to trust and respect of the players.

If you cannot instill belief or motivation in them there will be a lack of trust. For example; I may well be a quality coach with the qualities to coach wales to world cup victories. But if i cannot make the players believe in me they will never follow me to the places they need to go to get those wins.

I feel the situation we have at the moment is exactly that. A 97 lions tour aside, the coaching staff themselves have never compiled a history of winning or beating any of the worlds best sides.

Permian1988 wrote:Wayne, I am an Osprey fan myself and I am pleased with the main man in Tandy at the moment. He is a player who has been with the region and looks and sounds like someone who has an intellectual rugby brain.

Yes Lewis has said that they will have a direct influence on coaches at regions. But I hope successful coaches with a decent track record will replace those who exist. I believe we have two quality coaches at the helm of the Scarlets and Ospreys.

Phil Davies for me is a weak leader and lacking any real rugby coaching CV worth mentioning. I dont want to hear about teams like Leeds carnegie.

It is hard to have an opinion on Edwards at the dragons but he doesnt strike me as an intelligent rugby leader.

We must stop giving to jobs to the "Boys" if you like. If we do not have quality coaches readily available in Wales then we must look elsewhere.

Permian, yes again I agree and most on our forum would agree that Tandy is doing a good job, I think it is too early to give a verdict on Easterby but I entirely agree on Davies and Edwards. knowing our track record with the WRU Tandy would be deposited elsewhere and Andrew Hore would be got shot of entirely. If I'm not mistaken the Irish regions all have foreign head coaches (sorry Ireland If I'm wrong) the one they don't want is Kidney an Irishman.

What I like from tandy is the experience that is being given to the youth. They have looked a quality bunch of boys with great potential.

On the Ireland teams I agree that I also think all their coaches are foreign.

I dont think that having a coach with the same nationality of the team they coach has a great bearing on the success of a team!

Taylorman wrote:I think you guys put way too much weight on the accountability of your coaches. They don't hold a magic wand. When the anthems (and Haka!) are over 15 + very experienced, seasoned, professional players step out onto that park and the coach is rendered useless in terms of the result from that point- barring what he can conjure up at half time.

Getting Gatland back isnt going to change things. If it causes a dramatic turnaround in more or less the same team in a week then you really have to wonder about the players as players of this game, if their performance makes so much difference in terms of who has been yapping at them all week.

I think some of the frustration comes from seeing players like at the Scarlets scoring some of the best tries in the Heineken cup, running some seriously impressive running lines and support play, yet on the international stage the tactics are to bosh. I know, I know: Heineken cup is a lower level, but they've been scoring these tries against some of the top teams choc full of internationals. We're talking players like Prisetland (believe it or not), Knoyle, North, JD. Not all of them are in the team, and I don't expect them all to get the nod, but the style of rugby that scores them some great tries is either not part of the plan or tactics, or they are told not to do it (same thing I suppose). That's why we sometimes come down hard on the coaches. When I watch the S15 NZ teams I see free flowing rugby, great running lines, and this is carried over into the national team. A step up, but still a running game. Not the case for Wales. I understand that all coaches have their coaching philosophy and they have an idea of what will work best. But all the fans see is very talented players being stifled seemingly by less expansive tactics at international level.

That's why we (or me at least) get on Howley's back as attack coach because he can't seem to get the same out of the players as their regional coaches.

Griff wrote:

Taylorman wrote:I think you guys put way too much weight on the accountability of your coaches. They don't hold a magic wand. When the anthems (and Haka!) are over 15 + very experienced, seasoned, professional players step out onto that park and the coach is rendered useless in terms of the result from that point- barring what he can conjure up at half time.

Getting Gatland back isnt going to change things. If it causes a dramatic turnaround in more or less the same team in a week then you really have to wonder about the players as players of this game, if their performance makes so much difference in terms of who has been yapping at them all week.

I think some of the frustration comes from seeing players like at the Scarlets scoring some of the best tries in the Heineken cup, running some seriously impressive running lines and support play, yet on the international stage the tactics are to bosh. I know, I know: Heineken cup is a lower level, but they've been scoring these tries against some of the top teams choc full of internationals. We're talking players like Prisetland (believe it or not), Knoyle, North, JD. Not all of them are in the team, and I don't expect them all to get the nod, but the style of rugby that scores them some great tries is either not part of the plan or tactics, or they are told not to do it (same thing I suppose). That's why we sometimes come down hard on the coaches. When I watch the S15 NZ teams I see free flowing rugby, great running lines, and this is carried over into the national team. A step up, but still a running game. Not the case for Wales. I understand that all coaches have their coaching philosophy and they have an idea of what will work best. But all the fans see is very talented players being stifled seemingly by less expansive tactics at international level.

That's why we (or me at least) get on Howley's back as attack coach because he can't seem to get the same out of the players as their regional coaches.

Griff, who do you think is resposible for the back play at the scarlets? Im beginning to see a trend with Nigel Davies. He seemed to do a great job at the scarlets and at gloucester now. I cant help but think that he is the kind of innovative coach for back play Wales need and that he would also challenge decisions made by the top man in Gatland. Thoughts?

Permian1988 wrote:Wayne, I am an Osprey fan myself and I am pleased with the main man in Tandy at the moment. He is a player who has been with the region and looks and sounds like someone who has an intellectual rugby brain.
Yes Lewis has said that they will have a direct influence on coaches at regions. But I hope successful coaches with a decent track record will replace those who exist. I believe we have two quality coaches at the helm of the Scarlets and Ospreys.

Phil Davies for me is a weak leader and lacking any real rugby coaching CV worth mentioning. I dont want to hear about teams like Leeds carnegie.

It is hard to have an opinion on Edwards at the dragons but he doesnt strike me as an intelligent rugby leader.

We must stop giving to jobs to the "Boys" if you like. If we do not have quality coaches readily available in Wales then we must look elsewhere.

DRIFTWOOD
What a crock of Poopie!.........

Tandy is 32 with just one season before with the Welsh Premiership, heck he was even playing P/T last season. How did the season start for the Os this term?,,,,,,,,What did the young Os do against an Exeter 2nd/3rd team last week?, yes nothing really to write home about in his first full season start!. Certainly "jobs to the boys" in his case

Davies has had many years of coaching experience just because you dont want to hear or see his achievements doesnt mean they aren't there
46 Welsh caps.
Welsh Captain.
1996-06 - Leeds Tykes taking them from Division Three into top-flight Premiership rugby. Heineken Cup debut in 2003. Powergen Cup win in 2005.
2 yrs the Scarlets, leading them to their first Heineken Cup semi-final in eight years.
2010 - Wales Under-20s coach and National Academy Manager.
2011 - Worcester Warriors forwards coach

Any Welshman who can take an English team in a rugby league stronghold from Div 3 to the Premiership can't be just lucky.

Howley has had experience with Wales, Lions, Baa-Baas, Wasps (under Mr G and Mr Edwards), and now the Welsh first team. Ok officially he was the head coach for the last two games but as Edwards said Gatland still had a major say in selection. Remember not so long ago (2009/10) Gatland almost has the worst record of any welsh coach and had a 5 game losing sequence

The only common denominator is that Tandy already had a team who actually wanted to play for the Os not the Welsh Galaticos of the previous era, who strangely enough are now attempting to do the same in France (Phillips been a distruptive influence and been collecting club bans, Hook who is still consistently inconsistent, and Byrne !!) and strangely enough for Wales.

If you looked at Phillips Hook Jenkins etc lacklustre performances maybe you would realise its not the "overpaid" coaches who are at fault it just might be the "full bellied overpaid" Welsh "stars" who you need to look at. Certain Welsh players are just not hungry anymore

ffh - Phil's a mate of mine, play squash together

Permian1988 wrote:

Griff wrote:

Taylorman wrote:I think you guys put way too much weight on the accountability of your coaches. They don't hold a magic wand. When the anthems (and Haka!) are over 15 + very experienced, seasoned, professional players step out onto that park and the coach is rendered useless in terms of the result from that point- barring what he can conjure up at half time.

Getting Gatland back isnt going to change things. If it causes a dramatic turnaround in more or less the same team in a week then you really have to wonder about the players as players of this game, if their performance makes so much difference in terms of who has been yapping at them all week.

I think some of the frustration comes from seeing players like at the Scarlets scoring some of the best tries in the Heineken cup, running some seriously impressive running lines and support play, yet on the international stage the tactics are to bosh. I know, I know: Heineken cup is a lower level, but they've been scoring these tries against some of the top teams choc full of internationals. We're talking players like Prisetland (believe it or not), Knoyle, North, JD. Not all of them are in the team, and I don't expect them all to get the nod, but the style of rugby that scores them some great tries is either not part of the plan or tactics, or they are told not to do it (same thing I suppose). That's why we sometimes come down hard on the coaches. When I watch the S15 NZ teams I see free flowing rugby, great running lines, and this is carried over into the national team. A step up, but still a running game. Not the case for Wales. I understand that all coaches have their coaching philosophy and they have an idea of what will work best. But all the fans see is very talented players being stifled seemingly by less expansive tactics at international level.

That's why we (or me at least) get on Howley's back as attack coach because he can't seem to get the same out of the players as their regional coaches.

Griff, who do you think is resposible for the back play at the scarlets? Im beginning to see a trend with Nigel Davies. He seemed to do a great job at the scarlets and at gloucester now. I cant help but think that he is the kind of innovative coach for back play Wales need and that he would also challenge decisions made by the top man in Gatland. Thoughts?

I think he's a very talented coach, and yes I'd like him in the welsh set up as I think he's prove he's good. However, are the coaches under Gatland given free reign to mould the players to play how they want, or is Gatland the ultimate reason for the backs play?

flyhalffactory wrote:

Permian1988 wrote:Wayne, I am an Osprey fan myself and I am pleased with the main man in Tandy at the moment. He is a player who has been with the region and looks and sounds like someone who has an intellectual rugby brain.
Yes Lewis has said that they will have a direct influence on coaches at regions. But I hope successful coaches with a decent track record will replace those who exist. I believe we have two quality coaches at the helm of the Scarlets and Ospreys.

Phil Davies for me is a weak leader and lacking any real rugby coaching CV worth mentioning. I dont want to hear about teams like Leeds carnegie.

It is hard to have an opinion on Edwards at the dragons but he doesnt strike me as an intelligent rugby leader.

We must stop giving to jobs to the "Boys" if you like. If we do not have quality coaches readily available in Wales then we must look elsewhere.

DRIFTWOOD
What a crock of Poopie!.........

Tandy is 32 with just one season before with the Welsh Premiership, heck he was even playing P/T last season. How did the season start for the Os this term?,,,,,,,,What did the young Os do against an Exeter 2nd/3rd team last week?, yes nothing really to write home about in his first full season start!. Certainly "jobs to the boys" in his case

Davies has had many years of coaching experience just because you dont want to hear or see his achievements doesnt mean they aren't there
46 Welsh caps.
Welsh Captain.
1996-06 - Leeds Tykes taking them from Division Three into top-flight Premiership rugby. Heineken Cup debut in 2003. Powergen Cup win in 2005.
2 yrs the Scarlets, leading them to their first Heineken Cup semi-final in eight years.
2010 - Wales Under-20s coach and National Academy Manager.
2011 - Worcester Warriors forwards coach

Well what you're saying is a croque of shyte aswell. Tandy actually turned the Ospreys around and took them to Dublin where they beat the best team in Europe to pick up the league trophy. And telling us about how their academy boys did in the now official mickey mouse cup against Exeter? You must be wumming! Bad start to the season no doubt but let's see how the rest of it unfolds.

Seeing as we are talking about coaching achievements I'm not sure why you mention Phil Davies' caps. 10 years at Leeds and taking them into the premiership really isn't nothing to write home about. Neither is the rest of what you list. He took a good team from Gareth Jenkins (they had been getting better season on season before this under him); the beatings of Toulouse and getting to the semi was thanks to the work of his predecessor. You must have a short memory if you don't remember him undoing all the work the following season (which lead to him being sacked). I watched his U20s team play. He selected a fair few gash players, most of whom have disapeared from pro rugby. He had a few gems at his disposal but the U20s team still finished fourth or fifth under him. Worcester forwards coach; was there a final point with this one?

Phil is now doing a bad job of coaching the Blues and is apparently earning 300,000 per year. The people who make the decisions down there are officially loopy. Phil is more suited to a development officer role (outside his Region though).