The Old Master - Lets not overlook him

Like in the months before the Oscars when studios bring out their heavyweight dramas in the hope of picking up a statue I thought I would do likewise in the hope I can pick up at least a nomination or two and write about a guy who seems to find himself falling down the pecking order when debates arise about the best ever lightweight, the Old Master Joe Gans who was lightweight champion of the world between 1902-1908. I myself have been guilty of this but having done a little research on Gans his dominance over his era and the esteem he is held in cannot be overstated.

In the ring Gans appears to have almost everything, was a terrific counter puncher and defensive fighter with an ability to block punches that was at the time described as beyond compare. If this all gives the impression of a fancy dan fighter this would be slightly misleading, Gans possessed a punch of truly chilling power, so much so that even confirmed racist John L Sullivan acknowledged both Gans’ power and skills in the ring, and as anyone who knows the first thing about Sully knows tributes to black fighters were not particularly forthcoming from Sully.

At his peak Gans only lost one fight and when one considers that was to the incomparable Sam Langford in a close fight and when one considers it was Gans’ second fight in 24 hours in cities 300 miles apart and the fact Sam enjoyed a weight advantage there is probably not too much shame in that loss, particularly as Sam is arguably the greatest fighter to ever lace up a pair.

A look at the names on Gans record confirm the level of his ability including such luminaries as the aforementioned Langford, Frank Erne, Jimmy Britt, Battling Nelson, Dan Hawkings and future trainer of Joe Louis Jack Blackburn, himself a fine fighter in his day and the legendary welterweight Barbados Joe Walcott, who Gans fought to a draw in a fight many considered Walcott fortunate to obtain such a result.

However for all his undoubted gifts Gans was not averse to getting involved in fixed fights with at least two of his fights being considered to be not on the level, those being his fight with Terry McGovern where Gans was reported to go down several times without being hit and the other being his first fight with Jimmy Britt. However given how hard things could be for black fighters back in turn of the century America we probably can’t judge Joe too harshly for these aberrations. Indeed Ring historian Gilbert Odd has argued that Gans was often under order to carry opponents, such was the lot of black fighters at the time, when one considers Gans finished with a ledger of 120—8-9 (85kos) with 18 no decisions one can only speculate how his record would read where he free to cut loose on his opposition because it is not beyond possibility that at least one or two of those draws and no decisions bouts could have comfortably been added to the win column.
What also should be considered in Gans’ favour is he was frequently forced to make weights that were not particularly comfortable to him in order to secure fights with white opponents. In his first fight with Nelson Gans was forced to weigh in at 133 ringside in full gear a ridiculously low weight for Joe to try and force his ageing body down to, when one adds into the mix the 42 round length of fight and the Nevada heat he had to endure and one has to marvel that Gans could achieve half of what he did through his career.

As always with these guys who little or no footage exists of I like to draw on the opinions of those who saw them in the flesh and plenty of respected voices seem to echo the opinion that Gans was a true great of the ring. Fleischer considered him the greatest lightweight of all time, Charley Rose considered him #2 behind Leonard and boxing commentator Tad Dorgan who saw pretty much every great from Corbett to Tunney considered Gans as the best of all irrespective of weight, and Monte Cox, from whom much of the source material in this thread is drawn also has Gans has the greatest of all time. I personally do not know where to rank him as the lightweights are nigh on impossible to split but wanted to make the case that when the argument again crops up the assumption that Gans is bringing up the pack is not one we should just accept as a foregone conclusion.

Great stuff Jeff, even if it is clearly an attempt to derail interest from my Manny/Floyd masterpiece. You just can't let things lay, can you?

It's a shame his record is tainted by fixed fights, but as you say, it is hard to hold it against him due the times he plied his trade. It is symtomatic of that era and especially for a black fighter.

Lightweight is a tough division to pick an all time great, but you make a sound argument for his discussion at the very top end.

Nice one.

Would you like to hear my childs daily activities post by post or do you prefer quality posts regarding the subject matter despite the inevitably low amount of em?

I think Gans is one of those who can't be left out but without the footage people struggle as to where they would place him. A bit like greb - who has the greatest record on paper of any fighter. I think he's left bringing up the pack only because the competition at lightweight is so bloody fierce. Remember that round robin last week? Leonard Duran Whittaker Gans. Being fourth in that particular list is better than being first in many others.

Cracking article, Jeff. I've been debating buying a book on Gans I saw on the shelf at a Waterstoens not long ago, and this might just be the kick over the edge I need to get it.

Difficult for me to add anything else too insightful, as you've done a good job of demonstrating Gans' achievements and abilities. He'll forever be one of the cornerstones of the Lightweight division for helping to usher in a new era of more scientific, intricate boxing, and as you say he also performed with distinction against bigger men within his era. If your technique and skillset isn't up to it, it's taking on the bigger foes which will find you out, after all.

I don't really think Gans has been forgotten, so to speak. I think it's more to do with what a great division Lightweight has been over the decades. Benny's record is simply too great to go without mention for any serious amont of time, Duran was just....Well, just Duran, and obviously I've bored the hide off of everyone banging on about how great Pernell was over the past few months.

Nevertheless, it's great to have this mention for the 'Old Master.' Clearly amongst the all-time elite (in the proper senseof the word) at Lightweight and still to this day a true pound for pound great as well.

Does anyone have the stats for the fight between Gans and Nelson. I seem to remember Windy saying that the punch output was comparable to a modern fight despite it lasting for 40 odd rounds and taking place outside in the Nevada sun.

The milky boy kid is teething badly, lots of nappy changes. How's little miss shah?

Not bad Milky - thankfully her teething went ok - and when it wasn't we used this powder which numbed her mouth. She beginning to follow me everywhere - had to climb out of my window to go to work or to have a cigarette as she won't let me go out without her.

superflyweight wrote:Does anyone have the stats for the fight between Gans and Nelson. I seem to remember Windy saying that the punch output was comparable to a modern fight despite it lasting for 40 odd rounds and taking place outside in the Nevada sun.

I can't find any punch stats, superfly, but I did find out that Gans fought 11 rounds with a broken hand in 100 degree heat and that Theodore Roosevelt's son, Kermit, was in the crowd. Who would have thought that.

Windy probably had the punch stats from counting them as they landed.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

superflyweight wrote:Does anyone have the stats for the fight between Gans and Nelson. I seem to remember Windy saying that the punch output was comparable to a modern fight despite it lasting for 40 odd rounds and taking place outside in the Nevada sun.

I can't find any punch stats, superfly, but I did find out that Gans fought 11 rounds with a broken hand in 100 degree heat and that Theodore Roosevelt's son, Kermit, was in the crowd. Who would have thought that.

Windy probably had the punch stats from counting them as they landed.

A well developed skill. It must have been all that practice at counting pennies at the post office the week before the fight.

superflyweight wrote:Does anyone have the stats for the fight between Gans and Nelson. I seem to remember Windy saying that the punch output was comparable to a modern fight despite it lasting for 40 odd rounds and taking place outside in the Nevada sun.

I found a picture that suggests the choice of hat in those days was limited to about two.

Spoiler:

Got to love the fact the referee wears a hat, have no evidence to support the theory but am fairly sure boxings decline can be traced to the point this practice stopped

ShahenshahG wrote:Not bad Milky - thankfully her teething went ok - and when it wasn't we used this powder which numbed her mouth. She beginning to follow me everywhere - had to climb out of my window to go to work or to have a cigarette as she won't let me go out without her.

i imagine that varies from endearing to highly irritating, depending on your mood.

bit of random nappy talk, and a debate on the titfers of the times, and the thread's doing above average for the genre, rowley.

I did read it by the way, fine effort

Just like to add my note of appreciation, Jeff. A genius, Gans, and easily top 4 at 135. As a side note, it also emphasises the ability of one of Britain's true greats, Owen Moran, who was mixing it with great lightweights like Battling Nelson just a little after Gans had done so. As you say, Fleischer had Gans as the best of all lightweights, but he also placed Moran at number 3! Nat wasn't always right, but it does give you an idea of the strength at 135 in the early years of the 20th century and how respected Moran was in the States.

By the way, Jeff, you're a devout Villa fan - did you know that Moran was an alumnus of the Holt Boxing Club in Birmingham (practically overlooking Villa Park) and that the club are/were raising funds to commission a portrait of him to hang in a place of honour there?

Wow, didn't know that Captain. However, me and Jeff aren't currently admitting that we support the Villa at the moment. Perhaps mention it again when we have (hopefully) dragged ourselves out of the bottom three?

I did not know that Captain, the things you learn on here.

I can't believe that some old boxing club near Villa Park gets two admins wetting themselves, yet my revelation about Kermit Roosevelt gets stonewalled.

I am dealing with philistines on here.

(another one for the post count, Jeff).

your location gives you an excuse fists, but how does professional yorkshire man rowley justify his claret and blue underpants?

Glory supporter I bet, started watching them in 1982 when they won the cup with the big ears!

It attracts many famous people, Milky. Prince William, David Cameron, the governor of the Bank of England, and now Lord Rowley of Yorkshire.

Used to live down there Milky, it coincided with my formulative years when you decide such things and I have long been of the opinion that there should be a special circle of hell reserved for people who change the football team they support.

88Chris05 wrote:Glory supporter I bet, started watching them in 1982 when they won the cup with the big ears!

this year they're hoping to win it with noddy.

As a leeds fan, i'm on wafer thin ice laughing at anyone's football team... but brought up in leeds, lived next door to one of their footballers etc i was hardly going to be seduced by fashionable clubs elsewhere. Probably helped that i'm old enough for them to have been pretty good at the time.

i agree with the circle of hell comment rowley, but i suspect given the cameron allegiance, you'll never have a better excuse to swap colours.

milkyboy wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Glory supporter I bet, started watching them in 1982 when they won the cup with the big ears!

this year they're hoping to win it with noddy.

As a leeds fan, i'm on wafer thin ice laughing at anyone's football team... but brought up in leeds, lived next door to one of their footballers etc i was hardly going to be seduced by fashionable clubs elsewhere. Probably helped that i'm old enough for them to have been pretty good at the time.

i agree with the circle of hell comment rowley, but i suspect given the cameron allegiance, you'll never have a better excuse to swap colours.

I used to follow leeds in the premier league and Luton Town where I used to work as security. I got Luton relegated out of professional football and Leeds escaped the same fate when I stopped following football

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I can't believe that some old boxing club near Villa Park gets two admins wetting themselves, yet my revelation about Kermit Roosevelt gets stonewalled.

I am dealing with philistines on here.

(another one for the post count, Jeff).

Nice of you to help him out Tino. I don't think rowley would ever display such shameless post count boosting behaviour as you did here on your article:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Do you really think so, mobilemaster? Can't say I agree with that myself...

... the usual valid, well reasoned points...

...and he may well have suffered the verdict going against him.

+1.

Crafty!

Yeah, I can't really argue with that IG.

In my defense, Chris did actually express what I was thinking, just in a far more (as usual) eloquent manner than I could have managed so I just went fo the old '+1 trick'.

It still won't get 600,000 replies like his shameless piece of populist fiction.

I'll plus 2 it then, tino. Great article jeff and I suspect that it would be much easier to pick him out as a consensus top 3 or so in most other weight divisions.

Jeff, as I'm sure you'll have done plenty of reading on Gans, maybe you can clear something up for me.

Gans' first fight with Erne - on the level or not? I've often wondered. Obviously, his fights with McGovern and Britt were doused in controversy and its commonly accepted that both were fixed, but the first fight with Erne seems to escape such suspicions in the mainstream. I can only remember reading one book (an old publication by Harry Mullan) which hinted that Gans may have been swayed by dark forces to quit so suddenly once he'd been cut, and that he may have even carried Erne just to get to that stage in the first place.

Obviously, when they met again for the title he swatted Erne in a single round, which only serves to cast more doubt over the first result. Got anything concrete on this?

Chris from what I have read the fix rumours were not particularly prevalent at the time, they have gained traction on the back of the other fights where it is pretty much accepted Gans was involved in such shenanigans. Most of the reports at the time stated that the eye injury was pretty horrific and were severe enough to give him little chance, have to allow a bit for journalistic licence but have seen it described as hanging from the socket. If it was half as bad as that suggests would appear quitting was the only sensible course of action open to him.

Did you buy that book from the author that posts on here sometimes? Coyle - he wrote a new book on either Sam Langford or Jack Johnson

Shah Clay Moyle is the author, he has written two so far, Sam Langford Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion which is probably the best boxing book I have ever read and Billy Miske the St Pauls Thunderbolt, which is also excellent, the Langford book should be in every boxing fans library but the last time I looked was getting very expensive on Amazon.

The last time I spoke to him he said he was working on one on Tony Zale but not sure where he is up to with that.

Miske is my favourite of the old fighters - remember he came up when we were doing research for the one this day thing. I'd like to buy the book but like you said - they are bloody expensive and not an expense I can justify anytime soon. Not that I think it won't be worth it.

I used to follow leeds in the premier league and Luton Town where I used to work as security. I got Luton relegated out of professional football and Leeds escaped the same fate when I stopped following football
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Shah, Are you secretly supporting Liverpool thus accounting for their poor form (arguably improving nicely now) or is it just that they aren't very good? Think I've answered my own question really.

Was gonna change my username to "Bradford's Peter Jackson" but as he used to play for Bradford City many years ago, it may cause some confusion.

Oh yeah, fine article, Rowley!