Is the current Welsh setup failing?

Or are the Ospreys, Llanelli Scarlets, Cardiff Blues and Newport Dragons doing a good job?

If you would like changes what ones would you make?

Is players leaving to go to France and England a good or bad thing?

The most obvious thin to me from afar is that the regions have not inspired the public is the attendances are anything to go by. The result being that the sides for whatever faults that the WRU demonstrate, the game is not creating the paying interest of the fans. And the consequence is that the cloth is according to the means. Which in turns means wage caps. Which ha led to an outflow of talent. Which makes the product less attractive.
With the danger of forming a downward funding spiral.

Here in England we have a number of loss-making sides with poor attendances in the Jeff despite similar wage caps.

Is the difference the TV money that gets scooped up by England is not available to the Rabo because of under-selling the product?

Here in England armchair fans have to pay to view so there may be an incentive for getting off their collective arses to attend the games. But in any case the clubs reap some sort of revenue.

Steffan wrote:Or are the Ospreys, Llanelli Scarlets, Cardiff Blues and Newport Dragons doing a good job?

If you would like changes what ones would you make?

Is players leaving to go to France and England a good or bad thing?

Come on man IF your going to want to be take seriously and not as a WUM at least get he team name correct (funny you didn't say Neath-Swansea Ospreys eh)

Cardiff Blues
Newport Gwent Dragons
Ospreys
Scarlets

FANS
To be fair the regions average attendances are growing season upon season (bar the Blues who had a huge gain followed by loss aroung the CAP to CCS move), the season ticket sales of the regions have improved season upon season too. The number of regional rugby shirt you see being worn around towns etc have increased. And also IMO the general interest and conversation amongst the working man have turned more towards rugby over the last decade.

SILVERWARE
02-03 -Celtic League Scarlets
03-04 - none
04-05 - Celtic League Ospreys
05-06 - none
06-07 - Cletic League Champions Ospreys,
07-08 - Anglo-Welsh Champions Ospreys
08-09 - Celtic League Champions Ospreys, Anglo-Welsh Champions Blues
09-10 - European Challenge Cup Champions Blues
10-11 - Celtic League Champions Ospreys
11-12 - Celtic League Champion Scarlets?

The regions are producing the goods on the feild.

PLAYER DEVELOPEMENT
The regions have brought through a heap of talent such as

Paul James
Ryan Bevington
Rhodri Jones
Matthew Rees
Ken Owens
Huw Bennett
Richar Hibbard
Craig Mitchell
Scott Andrews
Samson Lee
Alun-wyn Jones
Ian Evans
Bradely Davies
Lou Reed
Luke Charteris
Sam Warburton
Justin Tipuric
Ryan Jones
Danny Lydiate
Toby Faletau
Aaron Shingler
Josh Turnull
Rob McCusker
Lloyd Williams
Rhys Webb
Martin Roberts
Tavis Knoyle
Rhys Priestland
Dan Biggar
Jason Tovey
Jon Davies
Scott Williams
Ashley Beck
James Hook
Jamie Roberts
Andrew Bishop
Thom James
Aled Brew
Leigh Halfpenny
Harry Robinson
Tom Prydie
Alex Cuthbert
George North
Liam Williams
Lee Byrne
Morgan Stoddart

And a heap more that I can remember of the top of my head. A vast number of those are into double figure for caps, and have won grand slams etc.

Personally don't think the regions attendance is too bad (league only)

Region Highest/lowest
Blues 8217/7412
Ospreys 9246/7159
Dragons 7331/4168
Scarlets 14,111/5757

Province
Connacht 5813/3869
Leinster 46280/15724
Munster 15642/6219
Ulster 11078/8108

Glasgow 4348/3313
Edinburgh 4079/3128

Treviso 5000/3000
Zebre 2550/700

What is a bit worring is Leinsters lowest attendance, is still higher than anyone elses highest attendance, Leinster are set to be a rugby force, other teams may beat them and win th eleague etc, but Leinster will always be there or thereabouts, other teams will go in cycles and drop out of play offs, Leinster won't.

Munsters lowest attendance is in part because it was at Musgrave park which doesn't have the same capacity and no doubt if it was in Thomond it would have had a bigger attendance, but this is a hit Munster are willing to what they lose in a few games they more than make up for by keeping Munster a Munster team, and shirt sales, traveling fans, etc more than make up for this shortfall in the long run.

Think we can say roughly without working it out
Welsh average around 8000 per region
Ireland average around 10000 per province
Scotland average around 3800 per district
Italy average around 2750 per team.

IMO to improve the League the focus should be on Scottish and Italian attendance

King - I believe on average league attendances the Scarlets finished htird last season below Munster and Leinster but above you lot.

Also I think that a lot of people who post from outside of Wales are unaware of how poor attendances were for the welsh clubs pre-regionalism, the regions are definately a vast improvement on the old clubs with their attendances.

I think at an age grade level (U16, U18) regionalism has been a huge step in the right direction. The level of coaching and advice available to the players who are deemed good enough to make it in to this system has seen some very strong age grade sides coming out of Wales and is providing them with a strong basis from which to achieve their goals of becoming a professional rugby player.

Regionalism has also seen North Wales given funding and attention that was lacking during the professional club era, this is key because the North has been an area that most fans have pointed to as an underutilised resource for some time.

The issue of attendance at regional game is of course a big issue, but it cannot all be put at the feet of the WRU. The regions as independent businesses have been dreadful at marketing. There is so much competition in the entertainment market place for consumer pounds, and the regions have been very lack lustre in their promotion.

All in all I would suggest that regionalism is working, if you look at all aspects of the regional concept. The professional teams are obviously the most important aspect of the regional system, but we are yet to see the full impact that first generation regional fans will have in regards to attendance and spending. Due to this lag time it’s not clear to say that the regions or current set up are failing, as the current fan base is primarily still the remnant of the club system.

As it happens I only 30 mins(ish) ago contacted Statbunker http://www.statbunker.com/ and signed up in their forum to see how I can improve the data in the Jeff and Rabo attendance stats.

If for instance the Jeff game between LI v Bath game (22/9/12) was recorded as 7324 (according to the beeb), irrespective of 'special games' the reported stats would be nominally complete.

The Rabo has loads of gaps on Statbunker which could be similarly easily patched.

[ed] the current Jeff average attendance is 12,858 http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=407&statType=home_Att
The corresponding Rabo figure is 7,017 http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=413&statType=home_Att

But the data is incomplete and can only be viewed as indicative.

Its easy to look up at times
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/3796231.stm

Celtic League 2001 (pre regions)
Llanelli V Swansea
Att: 4,500

this year Scarlets V Ospreys
14,111

I really don't get why people say Wales should go back to clubs, this was the Welsh prem with Scottish and Irish thrown in, had the old derbies they talk about etc etc,

Is it the best system for Wales?
That can be argued, but one thing is known, Wales and Ireland cannot support more than 4 teams each.

Aviva Average Attendance in 2011-12: 12,572

If you take out the big London double headers etc, and games Leinster move to NLR, I'd say the average of Welsh and Irish teams compares well with average of Aviva clubs, Scottish and Italians brings Pro 12 average way down.

Welsh attendance in past was something that we would argue needed improved, I'd say at this point its decent, could be better but not bad. Its the Scots we should turn to next, but I think they are working on it.

Coleman wrote:I think at an age grade level (U16, U18) regionalism has been a huge step in the right direction. The level of coaching and advice available to the players who are deemed good enough to make it in to this system has seen some very strong age grade sides coming out of Wales and is providing them with a strong basis from which to achieve their goals of becoming a professional rugby player.

Regionalism has also seen North Wales given funding and attention that was lacking during the professional club era, this is key because the North has been an area that most fans have pointed to as an underutilised resource for some time.

The issue of attendance at regional game is of course a big issue, but it cannot all be put at the feet of the WRU. The regions as independent businesses have been dreadful at marketing. There is so much competition in the entertainment market place for consumer pounds, and the regions have been very lack lustre in their promotion.

All in all I would suggest that regionalism is working, if you look at all aspects of the regional concept. The professional teams are obviously the most important aspect of the regional system, but we are yet to see the full impact that first generation regional fans will have in regards to attendance and spending. Due to this lag time it’s not clear to say that the regions or current set up are failing, as the current fan base is primarily still the remnant of the club system.

It has also given places like Pembrokeshire/Ceridigion are real team that is theirs, as opposed to following Llanelli RFC, but knowing that they are Llanelli's team, the Scarlets are our team and represent us. That really helps the game develop as people are seeing it as actually having a side thay when they grow up they want to play for. IMO that is one thing the regionsa are doing well they are looking more like miniture national sides (as in players from their region playing in their region), and that will bring the attendances through as people love seeing the lad down the road playing for their side.

Rabo attendances have been rising steadily in comparison to the Jeff.

Unfortunately you cannot extract a data item to prove a trend.

One hot July or December etc. cannot be provide evidence for global warming any more than attendances like double headers or special games like Saracens' repeated one-offs, or Ospreys' bogofs go only to distort the facts or the revenues.

greytiger wrote:Rabo attendances have been rising steadily in comparison to the Jeff.

Unfortunately you cannot extract a data item to prove a trend.

One hot July or December etc. cannot be provide evidence for global warming any more than attendances like double headers or special games like Saracens' repeated one-offs, or Ospreys' bogofs go only to distort the facts or the revenues.

Grey you can argue that, especially from the welsh point of view (and Scarlets and Ospreys in particular) we area plyaing in stadia with higher capacities than the old stadia, and we are getting attendances for derby matches and againt the big irish opposition that would not actually fit into the old grounds. And this has been happening for the last few years, so it is pretty fair to say tha tthe attndances have risen.

Most of the Jeff teams with lower attendances play in stadia way beyond their credible support.

I think that as hard to judge as it is, If you take out the big London double headers etc, and games Leinster move to NLR, I'd say the average of Welsh and Irish teams compares well with average of Aviva clubs

Which is an improvement as we couldn't say that a few years ago.

the question posed is
Is the current Welsh setup failing?

IMO no, improvements could be made, and I think changes are taking place, but overall, while not delivering as best it could, it cannot be said to be failing.
Not sure what other measures you would use to define success or failure, comparing yourself to other pro clubs may be best, so best to compare with Irish provinces and Aviva Prem clubs (as Welsh regions fall somewhere inbetween the two models)

Attendances, averge Welsh region = Average Aviva club - lower than Irish average

Players, more internationals at regions compared to Avg Aviva team, equal to Irish
Income, lower overall income than Aviva, this is main area to improve, Lower than provinces
Acamadies,much better than Avg Aviva clubs, on par with Irish

Not sure what other measures you would use to define success or failure, comparing yourself to other pro clubs may be best

I have been to a number of games prior to regional rugby and the grounds were full to capacity during local derbies including CAP against Swansea, Pontypool park v Newport, Rodney Parade V Cardiff and Sardis Road v Newport as an example. Two of the grounds are still being used for Regional Rugby today. The biggest crowds were the Welsh cup double header semi finals and final at CAP main stadium, if you add the 25k for the semi's and 50k for the final into the mix I would argue the crowds have gone down overall as there were lots of local derbies (16 clubs) drawing the crowds more evenly distributed across S Wales. If you look at the Newport and Pontypridd HC crowds they were very respectable.

Definitely failing, i think we should have one region and call it Pontypridd

glamorganalun wrote:I have been to a number of games prior to regional rugby and the grounds were full to capacity during local derbies including CAP against Swansea, Pontypool park v Newport, Rodney Parade V Cardiff and Sardis Road v Newport as an example. Two of the grounds are still being used for Regional Rugby today. The biggest crowds were the Welsh cup double header semi finals and final at CAP main stadium, if you add the 25k for the semi's and 50k for the final into the mix I would argue the crowds have gone down overall as there were lots of local derbies (16 clubs) drawing the crowds more evenly distributed across S Wales. If you look at the Newport and Pontypridd HC crowds they were very respectable.

to be fair you could argue that the regions have created more 'derby' matches than before regionalism. At the moment each region has a minimum of six regional derbies in the league a season, that means 30% of the league games for a region are regional derbies. Then for there area alos so pretty feirce rivalaries forming with teams from across the irish season for some regions too (Scarlets/Ulster, Ospreys/Leinster etc), which are IMO also more or less derby matches. Before regionalism there were 16 clubs, and each realistically had 2 rivals, so 4 derby matches a season. That means pre-regional the derby matches were only 12.5% of the season for a club.

Don't know where this big full to capacity during local derbies pre regions, comes from, because I've never seen any stats to back it up, I'm sure that the big games did sell out, but I doubt that say Llanelli had more people through the turnstiles in 1995 compared to 2012.

1996–97 Heineken Cup
Llanelli and Cardiff (easyest to compare to today) were only getting around 3000 for h-cup games.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/3796231.stm

Celtic League 2001 (pre regions)
Llanelli V Swansea
Att: 4,500

this year Scarlets V Ospreys
14,111


So while people have fond memories off sell out derbies, I'd say more prople go to see Scarlets in a year now than they did Llanelli in the 90's.

Steffan wrote:Or are the Ospreys, Llanelli Scarlets, Cardiff Blues and Newport Dragons doing a good job?

Yes their bringing academy players through, the only real issue Wales has is that they cannot afford a league structure like France and England while most Welsh fans would prefer local teams playing each other every week, not Irish, Italian and Scottish teams.

The regions are poor, but they can't afford to compete on wages and as a result lose players as they approach their prime years, it's a sad fact of life.

Steffan wrote:If you would like changes what ones would you make?

Unless we can generate money like the French and English then we have no way of competing with them, so we have to make do with what we have.

Steffan wrote:Is players leaving to go to France and England a good or bad thing?

Both, it makes it harder for Wales to have access to them, however each player who goes abroad blocks a French or English place and opens one up for a young Welsh lad. Every player who goes increases our player pool for Wales.